So here's is my plan. I plan to do 1 lesson a day. However, for any lesson which has 50 kanji or more, I will break down and seperate into multiple days (so for example say a lesson has 76 kanji, I'll break it town to 38 one day and 38 another). I may skip days from time to time depending on my mental and physical stamina. Does that sound reasonable?

A little bit of background info to help you judge me. I'm a fulltime student, I have a good amount of free time. I happen to be a Japanese Major, and it's currently the start of my third year studying Japanese (second in college though). I have more than enough time on my hands, and I'm fairly good at memorization (probably much better when mnemonics are tossed into the equation). So anyways, do you think it's a bit over the top? Or does it seem just fine?

If you have a lot of free time, that sounds very feasable to me.

I think the most I've ever studied in one day (and retained) is about 60 kanji, but I, like you have quite a bit of spare time. btw those 60 were broke down into blocks of 20, and studied with decent breaks in between. I always like to study just 20, then review them, testing the power of each story as I go, tweaking, adjusting where needs be.

I would have to say though, that maintaining that kind of pace would grow more and more difficult, as the more kanji you acquire, the more reviews you'll need to do.

Luckily for us the reviewing and studying sections of this site, cut the amount of effort required for reviewing down to the bare minimum.

Cheers again Fabrice.

About 50 kanji a day sounds totally feasible if you can put in enough time. Personally I've averaged 35 kanji a day since I started, but I am quite busy with my work. I'd say I put in more than 2 hours per day on average. My long term goal is to learn 200 per week.

I'm nearing 600 kanji now with very good recall rate (there are just a handfull that I forget or confuse).

I'd say you probably need an average of 200 hours study and review to finish RTK 1. What say others?

vosmiura Wrote:I'd say you probably need an average of 200 hours study and review to finish RTK 1. What say others?

Well, Hesig mentions in the RTK1 foreword that it could be done in four to six weeks of full-time study (and this is based on his observations of others using the method, not just himself). If we assume 40 hours per week is full-time, then that's somewhere between 160 - 240 hours.

Anyhow, 200 hours does seem resonable. It will probably take me longer, but that's because I stopped for a long time half way through. As with learning anything I think the key is to work consistently, or as the Japanese say "日々".

Currently up to 1670. It's nice to be on the last 500, the finish line is in sight, and if you're in Japan or trying to read Japanese text you'll be coming across a lot of familair kanji.

As for me, it takes much more time.
I'm a full time student too, though I don't have so much spare time inbetween.
Though you might think I've got a reasonably good memory, for I study laws.
But for people who don't read Japanese texts every day, like myself, it's kind of time consuming to study Kanji. You need a context. Even using Heisig.

If you read texts every day and spend a lot of time every day you might be able to learn a lot of Kanji, maybe even 50 a day. Though trust me, you will forget them. You defenitely will if you don't repeat them until they are totally fortified in you mind. So you can learn 1500 Kanji easily in 5 weeks, though you will have forgotten most of the first 1000 if you don't fortify the stories you made up and if you don't repeat them every once in a while. ALSO and that is what most people I know forget: You need to repeat them the other way round as well, from Kanji to meaning. That strengthens your memory and your ability to read fast and recognize fast which ist even more important than being able to write in these times.
I do it like learning 200 new Kanji then repeating all kanji I've learnt before. I'm at 1700 now and you might notice that this takes quite an amount of time to repeat. Like 2 or 3 days. It takes me like 20 seconds per Kanji I remember and 3 or so minutes per Kanji I don't remember.
I have just finished (2 days ago) repeating 1600 Kanji and it took me a week (I didn't have too much time) and I realized that I finally know like 480 of the first 500, 440 of the second 500 but only like 300 of the third 500 and only 40 of the last 100. That is kind of depressing. But normal, as I think. For every time I repeat the Kanji about 20% of the remaining Kanji are remembered in long term memory. I suppose I will never remember all 2042 that way, but nearly. And when I start reading texts a lot that doesn't matter anymore.

As for me, only 342 Kanji to go! I just started to repeat Kanji 1600 - 1700 for the first time.

BUT THIS PAGE IS GREAT! It is much faster to study here!!! I learnt over 1600 Kanji without this page but the last 100 Kanji were so fast! Even though only about 70 of those fit with the keywords on this page.

Sorry for the long talk, but please stay realistic. As I said, I suppose I got quite a nice memory and take my time to create stories, but I still forget plenty. We all can do it! But it takes more time than Heisig says, I'm totally convinced of that!
Otherwise, if you got a perfect memory.....

Sincerely,
Ben

P.s.: Oh and as rgravina said: I sometimes read short stories in Japanese or some books and finally I realized that I know like 99% of the Kanji!! Not the readings, yet, but the Kanji. (and how about the Kanji I haven't learnt yet? Easy: I know about 100 of those already because I have studied lots of Kanji, like 1000, before I started Heisig, but only readings, NO meanings, which is why I am still stuck to Heisig, but am able to read a lot already But even without that I 'know' most of the Kanji already. It's so great to look and recognize all of them!! You know, many people, even on these forums said: Oh man you need about 4000 Kanji to read proper Japanese and that is more than, sorry, ***** bullshit. Ppl who say that don't know a shit and just want to demotivate you. I can already, with 1000 (!) Kanji, read magazines, books and manga, even newspapers mostly stick to the Jouyou-kanji in general (but they are too tiresome for me to read yet). Learn your 2042 Kanji and you're pretty pretty well off!! Only, you need a nice vocabulary, but that is about all, learning kun-yomi is easy. Some more Kanji than 2000 only if you want to study in Japan or especially if you want to read classical literature or specialized texts. 2000 rocks!!)

Sorry again for talking long, but I just wanted to utter that, especially after reading such nonsense on these forums! HAVE FUN!

Hi Aikou. I guess reviewing every kanji in one go will give you an exact idea of where you stand, however that is not such a great way to review. It takes sooo long. You should review a little bit every day.

When you review it is to strengthen your long term memory by recalling the knowledge at just the right amount of time, the way the reviews are scheduled on this website or by tools like SuperMemo or Mnemosyne. That will optimise your learning ability. If you review 1500 kanji in one go, you will test yourself, but chances are you won't improve your memory of any of them much.

If you follow this website you should end up revising no more than 150 kanji each day and you will cycle through every kanji you know in every 10 days. Those kanji that you don't know well will stay in lower stacks and you'll be revising them more often while those kanji you do know will move to higher stacks where you revise much less often.

Aikou, regarding reading ability with 1000 kanji I totally agree. Thing is that if you know the 1000 most frequent kanji you can cover a lot of texts. The one snag is that Heisig doesn't tech in the order of top 1000 most frequent kanji... in fact some very common kanji are left right to the end of the book.

Well, I cannot learn with this site, because it is only in English while I studied with the German version of the book. That's why I requested more languages here....

Sadly, there are NO tools so far for use with the German keywords, besides KanjiGym for the PC and PocketPC (I use my pocket pc to test myself while I read the stories online, but the program does not at all memorize your mistakes or anything like that, so it's pretty useless, but at least it lets you repeat all the not remembered kanji after the first review, it just doesn't save anything, so if I the PDA goes out everything is gone). Very sad....so I have no 'system' for review. I just review in 500's or 250's (for newer kanji) in one go. And for totally new Kanji in 100's (after that I study 100 more kanji, then repeat the last 200, after that I repeat all Kanji....well it is a lot of work, but I've got no alternative and it kind of works for me, though it could be better; but making 2042 flash cards would take me SO much time that it's uneconomic for me).
If anyone knows a program which has the German keywords and has a this stack system like on this page, please tell me. I'd be very happy!!! My next complete review will be in 3 days.

P.s.: I WOULD LOVE ANYONE IF HE'D TOLD ME ABOUT A PROGRAM LIKE THAT!!!! IT WOULD SAVE ME LOOOOOOTS OF TIME BECAUSE I CAN JUST REPEAT WITHOUT REPEATING KANJI I REMEMBER. Please lovely god.....

zporkz Wrote:So here's is my plan. I plan to do 1 lesson a day. However, for any lesson which has 50 kanji or more, I will break down and seperate into multiple days (so for example say a lesson has 76 kanji, I'll break it town to 38 one day and 38 another). I may skip days from time to time depending on my mental and physical stamina. Does that sound reasonable?

That may work for you, but it would be way too much for me. I did an even 20 kanji per day, 5 days per week, with paper flashcards. I started with less than an hour per day, but ended at about 3 hrs per day. If you want an even work load, you might want to start with 60 per day and end with 20 per day. That should give you about 4 hrs per day, if you're that much of a masochist. 30 to 10 would be 2hrs per day. I ignored the lesson divisions though, so maybe this won't work for you.

vosmiura Wrote:I'd say you probably need an average of 200 hours study and review to finish RTK 1. What say others?

It took me 300 hrs, but I used paper. I think I could have done 200 to 250 if I'd used supermemo, or possibly this site.

Aikou Wrote:Learn your 2042 Kanji and you're pretty pretty well off!! Only, you need a nice vocabulary, but that is about all, learning kun-yomi is easy. Some more Kanji than 2000 only if you want to study in Japan or especially if you want to read classical literature or specialized texts. 2000 rocks!!)

I think most Japanese are pretty proficient with 3000 or so kanji, and have a degree of understanding of a lot more. In the little reading/vocabulary study I've done, I've already added about 150 kanji to Heisig's 2042. When I hit 10,000 words, which is what I've been told it takes to read newspapers and most literature, I'll probably have 3000 kanji. I don't post this to discourage anyone. My goal is to read nearly as well as a native. If this is not your goal, you will probably need a different amount.

leosmith Wrote:I think most Japanese are pretty proficient with 3000 or so kanji, and have a degree of understanding of a lot more. In the little reading / vocabulary study I've done, I've already added about 150 kanji to Heisig's 2042. When I hit 10,000 words, which is what I've been told it takes to read newspapers and most literature, I'll probably have 3000 kanji. I don't post this to discourage anyone. My goal is to read nearly as well as a native. If this is not your goal, you will probably need a different amount.

Actually, you will end up to be able to read 3000 kanji after spending some time in Japan if you already knew 2042. I myself know about 50 - 100 Kanji above those 2042 Kanji as I realized, but no more. And those I didn't actually learn, they came 勝手に. I just looked up some words and often used Kanji sticked in my mind, like 喉. BUT you don't need them at all. I've read some books already and ALL of these books and stories used the hiragana for this Kanji or furigana. To actually READ you DO NOT need 3000 kanji (if you're not a specialist in some way). Not 3000 not 4000. But you will automatically learn those kanji in time. Like my girlfriend said (those damn little bilingual), she learnt like 80% of her Kanji just by reading and remembering the Kanji through furigana (which is why she often cannot tell the meaning or even the reading of a Kanji without context). She said no need to study .
For us it's a little different, for there are mostly no furigana (only on not too common words) concerning Kanji inside of the Jouyou-Kanji in adult literature. But everything in addition to that, speak RTK 3 and so on.....
I cannot tell about your experience, Leosmith, but mine is that I don't actively NEED 3000 Kanji, not as a standard reader and writer. Even 1000 Kanji were enough to read a lot (though tiresome).
If you know 10000 words which would be nearly university entrance level (a little less than that) you don't even need all the 2042 kanji (but some more of RTK 3) probably. My vocabulary is about that high (I have vocabulary lists that contain about 14000 words, though I haven't learnt them all yet) and that is my experience (I haven't learnt all those words with Kanji, but like 70% and I only needed 1000 Kanji! So what?).
Though, it is true that a very educated Japanese can passively read about 4000 or even more Kanji, but that is for people reading classical literature which contain the most Kanji of all texts (even more than scientific texts). And only passively.
If you actively know 2042 Kanji and later learn about 500 - 1000 (for laws I need about 600, for medicine about 800 and so on, there are some interesting lists on the internet!) passively, I am sure there will be little you cannot read. Please don't be demotivated! RTK 1 and 2 is so much already!!! The rest goes automatically if you stay in Japan or if you have a lot to do with Japanese texts, even scientific reference texts.

Oh and, a good way to learn Kanji is reading manga! There is almost always furigana, so it's perfect to memorize words with their Kanji. Though don't use Naruto Manga, the words are sometimes totally useless. Though I have bought some of those too in Japan

Sorry for talking much again it was to motivate myself too.

Sincerely,
Ben

If you have the time then I would just get through them as fast as possible. Having finished RTK1, I've found that it isn't how fast or slow that determines how well you retain, rather it's *reviewing* the kanji you've already learned that really makes them stick in your head.

If I were a Japanese major I would probably end up going all the way through RTK3 as well, but as Ben said these are very rare in actual usage. In the Japanese book I'm reading right now (intended for adults), on average there is about 1 non-jouyou kanji per 20-25 pages of text.

Well...yes I think you're right. Though too fast is not best, at least not for guys like me I need motivation! And it motivates me if I can continue with the next 100 Kanji and the next 100 again . Review is boring, compared to that. Also, as I said, there is no good computer or PDA program for reviewing German keywords, sadly. *sigh*
So I hope my method results in me remembering most of the 2042 Kanji once im done. Then I'll start over with RTK 2, learning the Kanji composita makes me recall and review the meanings of the single Kanji as well. Though one should not start RTK 2 without being sure to know like 80-90% of the RTK Kanji...at least I think so.

Sincerely,
Ben

Aikou Wrote:If anyone knows a program which has the German keywords and has a this stack system like on this page, please tell me. I'd be very happy!!! My next complete review will be in 3 days.

P.s.: I WOULD LOVE ANYONE IF HE'D TOLD ME ABOUT A PROGRAM LIKE THAT!!!! IT WOULD SAVE ME LOOOOOOTS OF TIME BECAUSE I CAN JUST REPEAT WITHOUT REPEATING KANJI I REMEMBER. Please lovely god.....

I could recommend Mnemosyne. I have made a Mnemosyne file with every kanji from RTK1 and RTK3. It has English keywords but I guess you could edit them into German. Let me know if you want me to send you the file.

Yes I'd like you to.
**************
(I will delete this post after you sent me the file, don't wanna share my E-Mail to those nice spam-distributing machines )

Thanks a lot!
And er, where do I get that program from? Is it for PC or PDA?

Thanks again!

Sincerely,
Ben

Edit: Deleted my mail address.

You can use Mnemosyne for the PC. Supermemo is pretty common. It is used for both PDA or PC but it is something you have to pay for. I use twinkle which is a similar program also based on the Leitner system for the Palm Pilot. I use my program for RTK1, RTK2 and vocabulary studying. It has increased my efficiency in studying tremendously.

The Mnemosyne program is available from http://mnemosyne-proj.sourceforge.net/ as freeware.

Supermemo is available from http://www.supermemo.com/. Supermemo's website also has lots of great information about memory learning techniques, etc.

The twinkle program is available from http://twinkle.sourceforge.net/ and is also freeware. If you have any questions about setting up twinkle, I can help you; however, I have not used the other programs so I wouldn't be much help there.

Good luck.

Nice, thank you!!

I just want to use the best program, I would even pay for it if neccessary. I've heard of super memo a lot, but this other program, Mnemosynce sounds interesting too. And twinkle? What do you think is best and to use what for what and so on. If you'd be so friendly to explain me, a noob with such programs, about those I'd be happy! You got my E-Mail so please send me mail there, because this would be off-topic here!
Also I'd like to hear about your experiences, not only about the programs but also your study. And possibly about the differences between studying with and without computer.

Thanks a lot in a advance!
Sincerely,
Ben

Aikou Wrote:Though one should not start RTK 2 without being sure to know like 80-90% of the RTK Kanji...at least I think so.

I'd say even more than that. You need to know the characters in the RTK1 context pretty throroughly before starting part 2. Otherwise you will get confused pretty easily when you have a bunch of characters thrown at you at once. I know you will want to charge right into RTK2 as soon as you finish RTK1, but trust me you will be much better off if you take a little time to review RTK1 first.

Mnemosyne is pretty nice. It is very simple but effective.

Aikou Wrote:Sorry for talking much again it was to motivate myself too.

Sincerely,
Ben

Hi Ben, motivation issues? I'm here in Japan right now (初めて）; I recommend looking at the young ladies. That should provides centuries of motivation. Wow!　Well, your Japanese is far better than mine. 14,000 words? Incredible. I would probably have a different perspective on things If I were in your shoes.

But I don't understand something - why don't you want to learn the kanji versions of most of your words? I found it helps with my reading. Of course, this means I add characters to my flashcards, but it's not so hard. I just use the Heisig method, and I already know the words in kana, so it's a cakewalk.

Also, what are you calling classical literature? Menus, ads, signs, and words I hear in conversation and on TV are where I usually get the "uncommon" kanji.

I'm sure you can read tons of stuff with 1000 characters, but I hope nobody gets de-motivated about finishing RTK1. I love studying kanji, and I know it's not a waste of my time to keep adding new characters as they come along. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way.......

Well, leosmith, I don't know 14000 words yet, I wish I could. It's maybe 10000, i hope
And you're wrong if you think I don't study them with Kanji in the first place. I do! I just forget is all I especially forget Kanji of words which Kanji I havn't learnt yet.
You don't know how right you are telling me that learning words THROUGH Kanji makes it easier like hell! Since I know the MEANINGS of all these Kanji I learn vocabulary twice as fast, if not even more. It's great!! I just learnt 魚貝類 without looking at it a second time! Or 高血圧. Look at it, remember it! It's almost becoming easier than in English! Or Spanish.

Oh an about the classical literature thingy:You misunderstood me.
You know, names and so on are also hard to read, though it's nothing you'd ever need (for names mostly have furigana in books, even in magazines and newspapers). And i never ever said that there are no common words with uncommon Kanji, no! What I said is, that most of these words are today written in Kana, or Kanji with Furigana. It's rare that such words are written in the traditional Kanji without Kana, BESIDES in classical literature. In such books there are Kanji used which are not even "uncommon" but rather "not to be used in every days life because not even a normal Japanese would understand".
Don't think that Japanese can read all names without hesitation or even at all!
I experienced a Japanese Professor who could not remember the names of the people in class so he would always read them from a list....but he couldn't "how is your name read?" , like that all the time.
About menues: That's not too easy, but you will be able to understand what's written there without knowing all the Kanji. It's just a matter of experience, I guess. Try to ask the Japanese if they know all the Kanji, especially in Chinese restaurants which are meant for Japanese....

Sincerely,
Ben

Aikou Wrote:And you're wrong if you think I don't study them with Kanji in the first place. I do!

Ha ha, you're so busted man. By my calculations, with 10,000 words, you'll have most of the joyo and about 500 non-joyo kanji in play. You can ignore those kanji, but you'll see them quite often outside of newspapers and manga. I chose to study them, just like you. Kanji power!

Aikou Wrote:You don't know how right you are telling me that learning words THROUGH Kanji makes it easier like hell! Since I know the MEANINGS of all these Kanji I learn vocabulary twice as fast, if not even more. It's great!! I just learnt 魚貝類 without looking at it a second time! Or 高血圧. Look at it, remember it! It's almost becoming easier than in English! Or Spanish.

Yeah it's awesome. I'm thinking Heisig will eventually be mainstream (although someone else might get the credit).

Aikou Wrote:Oh an about the classical literature thingy:You misunderstood me.

Sorry about that.

Aikou Wrote:You know, names and so on are also hard to read, though it's nothing you'd ever need (for names mostly have furigana in books, even in magazines and newspapers). And i never ever said that there are no common words with uncommon Kanji, no! What I said is, that most of these words are today written in Kana, or Kanji with Furigana. It's rare that such words are written in the traditional Kanji without Kana, BESIDES in classical literature. In such books there are Kanji used which are not even "uncommon" but rather "not to be used in every days life because not even a normal Japanese would understand".
Don't think that Japanese can read all names without hesitation or even at all!
I experienced a Japanese Professor who could not remember the names of the people in class so he would always read them from a list....but he couldn't "how is your name read?" , like that all the time.
About menues: That's not too easy, but you will be able to understand what's written there without knowing all the Kanji. It's just a matter of experience, I guess. Try to ask the Japanese if they know all the Kanji, especially in Chinese restaurants which are meant for Japanese....

Well, I think we can agree to disagree on some of this. I rarely see furigana. I'm not just saying this to try to win an argument, but since I've been in Japan I've seen maybe 1% furigana. I haven't read any manga, text books or newspapers since I've been here, but I've seen a ton of signs, ads, subtitles, books, operating instructions, etc. I agree that common names are pretty odd, and even Japanese have trouble. In regards to menus, one has to understand Japanese food, capture the vocabulary and learn the kanji. There's no furigana. Maybe you've seen menus so often you already have done this. I had to talk to the server, and choose something orally most of the time. I haven't been in a Chinese restaurant here, but you're probably right.

Ok, you win, I lose. Argument over from my side. Good luck with your studies.
Leo

Oh Leo, it's really not about win and loose, especially not on these matters. I don't claim to be right, I just try to share my experience and try to motivate others (and myself).
But trying to put some more to this "argument":

1. 10000 words....you can calculate 1500 - 2000 common lean words (mostly katakana), 1500 - 2000 words without any Kanji at all. So there might be 6500 words left written in Kanji. If you divide them into 1500 verbs, 1000 adjectives and 4000 nouns (might be like this, I guess, but I don't know). Most of the verbs are writte with only one Kanji (besides composite verbs), same goes for adjectives. Most nouns have 2 kanji (average). Makes 10.500. Come on, it would be strange if every Kanji would only have like 5 usages in the common words! Some Kanji have even two common noun meanings and or quite some verb meanings in one Kanji! So it would be even much less than that.

2. I have read quite some books by now, after having learnt 1500 Heisig-Kanji and still knowing my "own" kanji and it has become a lot less tiresome. I have not noticed so many non-jouyou-kanji. Don't worry!

3. Menus, names etc.: Right, problem, hard and harsh. But not too bad coz most Japanese have similar troubles we have. Menus don't change a lot so if you know one you know all. You'll see that soon! Just copy and learn one!
Books: ALL names are with furigana at least once in each book I've read so far in my life. I don't know which books you are reading

If I'm wrong or not doesn't matter, does it? Maybe I'm telling you nonsense but I swear not to tell nonsense in one respect:
I'm 100% sure you'll have a great time in Japan being able to read 2042 Kanji! And it will be a piece of cake to read books (with the adequate vocabulary). At least trust me on that one.

Sincerely,
Ben

When I buckled down on RTK 1 (I just finished it an hour ago! Yeah!!) I did 15 kanji per day. I always wrote my stories into the book rather than just visualizing them, so maybe that took up a lot of time, but I think it`s essential for review. I typically finished 15 kanji in around 90 minutes, at Starbucks with headphones on.　I like my studying to be fun.

I could finish some stories really quickly, in like a minute or two, but I often got stuck on others and had to really rack my brain to get a memorable story. That`s where I spent the majority of my time.