Thank-you guys - that helped a lot. wulfgar, the advice to not let the failed stack get too high was really good... I should try that! It's always awful to finally get through all your expired cards, only to find a huge number waiting for you to relearn.

Many of my cards were in the more mature "columns" - so I didn't think of it before, but those will probably be easy to relearn. I'll take it at my own time, a little every day like vinniram suggested, and I WILL finish. I'm just over half-way through... no way I'm stopping now! I probably just needed that gentle shove in the back.

gavmck, thank-you - I'd always wondered about what really came after I finished RtK. Reviews every single day?? But it makes sense - once I can learn and recognise them, I'll be able to read them, and reading and writing will lodge them in my brain for good. Describing it as a crutch was a great metaphor.

Once again, ありがとうございました！

julz: Also keep in mind that a few weeks after finishing RTK you see your review pile go down and down every day. When I had just finished, I had over 100 every day, sometimes as much as 130. One month later it was half that, and now, 2.5 months after finishing, it's down to between 30-60 a day. So it won't be 'every day for the rest of your life'. Also, when you start learning words and seeing the kanji in different settings, you'll find you also remember those kanji much better than the ones you are just reviewing. So it just gets easier.

Good luck with catching up!!

If you are reading this and you need encouragement then you're in luck. If you study RTK right now you will have learned JAPAN-*****-ESE. Now do it. Just get off this forum and learn it. Just do 5 kanji. Just 5. If you do 5 kanji you will have learned 5 kanji which puts you ahead of people who know less than 5 kanji (and there are millions of people who don't know a single god-damned kanji). Now! go! learn 5 right now.

If there is ONE non-japanese video you allow yourself to watch, then let it be THIS.

Read the lyrics as the song goes, and feel the power.

This is a HIGHLY MOTIVATIONAL video.
For your life.

bizarrojosh Wrote:If you are reading this and you need encouragement then you're in luck. If you study RTK right now you will have learned JAPAN-*****-ESE. Now do it. Just get off this forum and learn it. Just do 5 kanji. Just 5. If you do 5 kanji you will have learned 5 kanji which puts you ahead of people who know less than 5 kanji (and there are millions of people who don't know a single god-damned kanji). Now! go! learn 5 right now.

Hhaha that post was brilliant!

I just hit 396. The arrow kanji and all of its related primitives are rather horrifying but I'm making sure I work at the same rate everyday (20 new, three review sessions: before school, after school, learn new, before sleep). I am a little concerned about my Anki stats though...

Correct Answers
Mature cards: 0.0% (0 of 0)
Young cards: 65.2% (734 of 1125)
First-seen cards: 48.7% (182 of 374)

I know mature is all that *really* matters, but... 65%? SHOULD that value be so low? I want to make sure I'm fully utilizing the way that SRS works.

jettyke Wrote:If there is ONE non-japanese video you allow yourself to watch, then let it be THIS.

Read the lyrics as the song goes, and feel the power.

This is a HIGHLY MOTIVATIONAL video.
For your life.

And once again my assumption that the majority of people on these forums are under 20 got proven Lucky bastards

Very inspirational

I love you too.

Hey, if you are reading this get your ass off the internet and just do 10 Kanji. That's all its going to take. Just do ten. Trust me. If you do 10 that will be 10 that you will know and then you can move on to another 10 kanji later. Just do it right now and you will know 10 ***** kanji. That's 10 more than you will know right now and probably lots more than you would have ever thought you would have known. Just think about all the stuff you are going to be able to read. NOW GO DO 10 KANJI.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

Very inspirational

This

is probably on the same level,
but for some reason I like it

Raschaverak Wrote:

jettyke Wrote:If there is ONE non-japanese video you allow yourself to watch, then let it be THIS.

Read the lyrics as the song goes, and feel the power.

This is a HIGHLY MOTIVATIONAL video.
For your life.

And once again my assumption that the majority of people on these forums are under 20 got proven Lucky bastards

Well I don´t really listen to that kind of music at all, just that about 6-7 years ago I liked it and now by happenstance I found it and felt nostalgic. I wouldn´t ever have thought that I can find anything close to useful in that video, but in fact I did. But really, personally I think no matter who the artist is, it doesn´t change the fact that the lyrics can be motivating. If you know his story, then you might understand more. Recommending this video doesn´t have anything to do with my age... as I already said, my taste of music is different.

It took me some time to get passed the initial barrier of "Can I really become fluent in this language?" I've only recently gotten past the barrier and it's been 8 full months of actively learning japanese now. I guess it takes time. (P.S. not claiming I'm fluent, I just re-read what I posted and it came off like that,so just making it clear I'm not, not yet at least.)

I know anyone can get fluent in japanese(I.e. have a strong command of each skill:listening,reading,writing,speaking. But I've always wonder if native-level can be obtained. A lot of people have stated depending on what you do, 2-3 years is the initial years, again depending on what you do, you can achieve fluency. But what of native-level abilities? would that take double the time? or would it require going to japan itself and living the culture so that "native-like" things can be achieved. This is still kinda bothering me though...

@ta12121: For "native-level" abilities, I don't think you can quantify an amount of time to achieve such a thing. I really think its just a process you go through and one day we will all just work up fluent . Also living in japan would most certainly be the fastest way to get to this ever elusive "native-level" ability because over time you start to have a Japanese frame of mind, which might what is required to be native-level fluency. Bottom line, if you keep trying and you are having fun, you will get there.

wulfgar Wrote:@ta12121: For "native-level" abilities, I don't think you can quantify an amount of time to achieve such a thing. I really think its just a process you go through and one day we will all just work up fluent . Also living in japan would most certainly be the fastest way to get to this ever elusive "native-level" ability because over time you start to have a Japanese frame of mind, which might what is required to be native-level fluency. Bottom line, if you keep trying and you are having fun, you will get there.

Thanks. Hmm, so it's not really the time-frame it's more of the process. I've read up on native-level ability and people say it's being able to think in Japanese and reply to it smoothly and effectively without even stumbling. Although I still occasionally stumble while talking in English but I think this is due to me being exposed to Japanese so much nowadays. I do consider myself native-level abilities in english but I still make mistakes, it's just human nature. What makes this confusing is that, that term is hard to quantify by numbers. It's more just the process itself and what type of level do you wish in the language. A lot of people aim for university-graduate level. In terms of kanji people say this is 3007+. But I hear if you really want to be able to blaze through everything you come by, it's 4000. But to be honest, there is a never ending cycle for learning.

Nowadays I can pretty much understand japanese for japanese, I can automatically switch my mind to japanese when listening to japanese stuff, there isn't effort for this anymore since I just keep listening/watching japanese stuff.

ta12121 Wrote:I know anyone can get fluent in japanese(I.e. have a strong command of each skill:listening,reading,writing,speaking. But I've always wonder if native-level can be obtained. A lot of people have stated depending on what you do, 2-3 years is the initial years, again depending on what you do, you can achieve fluency. But what of native-level abilities? would that take double the time? or would it require going to japan itself and living the culture so that "native-like" things can be achieved. This is still kinda bothering me though...

2-3 years seems way overly optimistic for the vast majority of people learning Japanese. For example, the US government does a program for 'Limited Working Proficiency' at about 1,410 class hours. They do the program in 47 weeks, which is 30 hours a week (and more than that in homework, assignments study). At a university, normally about 5 class hours a week, it would take 9.4 years to get that much class time. Most people have classes or work other than Japanese, so doing the equivalent of thirty class hours is literally impossible for them (since, in practice, it's many more hours than that). And remember, we're not even talking fluency, we're talking basic proficiency.

I would say around 7 years is a much more reasonable guess for how long it takes most people to achieve a level close to what could be called fluency. My guess is that people on this forum often call limited working proficiency by the word 'fluency.' Another guess of mine is that the RTK/Anki Sentences method is no faster than a similar amount of time spent studying in regular classes (though I think it's a great method for self-study).

I've done classes for three years, various textbooks, RTK, Core 6000 via anki, read a lot of native material, lived in Japan for two years--about 5 total years and thousands of hours of sutdy, and there's no way I would call myself fluent.

5 years? hmmm.I remember someone saying that for true fluency it would take something like 7-11 years. But again I think this all comes down to what you do. There are even people who live in japan and don't even speak or know much Japanese even though being there for 5+,10+ years. I'm not sure what constitutes as fluent ,it's really confusing term to use even. Now that I think about it, I don't think I can call myself fluent or even near it. But some people would say I'm about half way there. I still suck at output but it has improved actually since a few months ago, writing I'm getting used to, I can write full sentences of kanji,etc. My listening skills keep going up and my reading skills. But as for considering fluency I'm not sure. I remember reading on this forum that, a lot of people don't consider themselves fluent but in the eyes of others they are fluent. So doesn't it all come down opinion and individual choice of when to call oneself truly "fluent". Because in the long run, only you can truly tell yourself you are fluent.

Well, as an example of why I wouldn't call myself fluent: Yesterday I saw the Trigun movie, Trigun: Bandlands Rumble, in theaters. I pretty much understood what was going on, and got the majority of the jokes. However, there were numerous plot points that I didn't completely understand even though I could tell in which scenes they were revealed. I was sometimes left with one or two theories of what was revealed. Some of them that I didn't at first understand, I could understand by the end of the movie. Some of them I'm still not sure of. Now, if I tried, I couldn't produce nearly half the things in the movie that I understood. It's not like Trigun uses all that much out-there vocabulary or anything.

Well it is anime and sometimes that uses terms even native-speakers wouldn't always know. But I hear yea. But I think this relates to the terms of that particular thing. For example I recently watched the metal gear solid 4 trailer in japanese, when I started learning japanese I couldn't understand much, now I can understand around 65% of it. Yes even know I still have trouble, it's more of certain vocab that I'm not familiar with, but overall I can understand it. As for speaking, I doubt I could speak in that context, it's way out of my league at the moment.

I recently started watching a movie called shinobi in Japanese, man some parts I was clueless about. Cuz it use's kanji in terms of that period of time, sure I can understand the movie but some parts I'm like ummmm, ok? I think that just means I have to learn more kanji past the initial joyo kanji and such. Lucky I have the interest and determination to go wayy past 2042 kanji. But I hear that is just basic amount, 3007 is a solid number. 4000 is supposedly "native-level" like.

Tzadeck Wrote:My guess is that people on this forum often call limited working proficiency by the word 'fluency.' Another guess of mine is that the RTK/Anki Sentences method is no faster than a similar amount of time spent studying in regular classes (though I think it's a great method for self-study).

Just quoting for truth.


On a side note, my dad is Swiss. He was born and raised in Switzerland, and never even had the thought to study English. Came to the US on a road trip with his buddies, 0% comprehension, and met my mom.
Nowadays, some 26 (?) years later, going back and forth between countries, most people would agree that he is indiscernible from a native, and actually more proficient than quite a few.

I asked him how he studied English. How long, what did he do, etc...
his answer: "I've never studied English."

I ask my mom, and she just says "I don't know. He likes to read"

ta12121 Wrote:But I hear that is just basic amount, 3007 is a solid number. 4000 is supposedly "native-level" like.

I don't know where you're getting these numbers, and that 4000 is "native-like." If you mean something like "native scholar" then maybe. But I've met many an average Japanese person who can't read 麒麟 unless they see it on a beer can.

You may as well just go the full 6,355 characters that are in the JIS X 0208:1997, which is probably all the characters you'll see a computer able to write.

6355 sounds tempting man lol jking. Here is where I found it.
http://blog.anokorok.com/2009/11/how-man...e-to-know/

I understand perfectly, you don't need to know all that much kanji to become fluent in japanese in terms of reading. 3007 is a solid number in terms only coming across 1 kanji you may not know in a few paragraphs full of kanji in a book. But I think once you reach a certain levelall you need to do is add kanji you come across that you don't know.

I do like learning kanji, so I might just keep going on learning a few everyday until I reach 4000 or so. I do plan on going to Chinese so it seems realistic and good to go for more kanji. But then again, the characters are different so I would need to learn that particular character set all by itself.

Asriel Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:My guess is that people on this forum often call limited working proficiency by the word 'fluency.' Another guess of mine is that the RTK/Anki Sentences method is no faster than a similar amount of time spent studying in regular classes (though I think it's a great method for self-study).

Just quoting for truth.


On a side note, my dad is Swiss. He was born and raised in Switzerland, and never even had the thought to study English. Came to the US on a road trip with his buddies, 0% comprehension, and met my mom.
Nowadays, some 26 (?) years later, going back and forth between countries, most people would agree that he is indiscernible from a native, and actually more proficient than quite a few.

I asked him how he studied English. How long, what did he do, etc...
his answer: "I've never studied English."

I ask my mom, and she just says "I don't know. He likes to read"

I guess that means it's just being exposed to the language countless times, that you naturally to pick up stuff. Your story relates to mine, my dad didn't study English either but he's fluent in English, can't really tell the difference between a native and him. He read a lot of books as well, keeps reading still to this day.

I hit a wall at 1366 and this thread was nowhere to be found! D:

That's 2/3 of the way through. That's an area I really want to get to, because I see the thread radical everywhere, but can't read them. I'm not yet half-way, at 1012, but I think I'll go over to Amazon now and order my copy of RTK3 just in case.

There's a million kanji with the thread radical, it's insane. ><

Anyway, がんばってね to all of you that are still going! You can do this, really. No matter how tedious it seems, no matter how many there seem to be left; at some point you will be done! ^^