Hi

So far with Heisig, i've been blitzing through till i hit lesson 16 17 and now 18. So many times Heisig says "look at the stories of kanji which stick really easy and ask yourself WHY they do", so i do, and my answer is "i physically picture myself in the situation". Or somehow, by logical deduction of the kanji meaning from its primitives i'm given a really decent story. All in all, it would take me less than a minute to find a story that works for these lesson 1-15 kanji.

Now. ? I sit here for 10 minutes looking up all the different meanings, even looking up some etymology from Kenneth G Henshall's book (A guide to remembering the Japanese Characters) just as reference, and i still cant get a good story out just for 1 kanji. Some of the kanji involving 'SAY' have meanings that are soo soo similar no matter what story i apply i always confuse them[rebuke admonish bla bla ] (even more since they all have the same keywords in different orders). I Had to invent some of my own primitives over Heisig's (fiesta, and some others) in order to make sense of some kanji i came across, but still using MARCH (since that one worked well)

Did anyone here hit a huge bump somewhere along the kanji road like me? or... have I been learning things the wrong way all along making things hard for me right now.


need some words of wisdom guys

thanks!

A lot of advice that I read on here made me realize that you shouldn't worry too much about judging the story as you are creating it. Even if you think it's not a good story at first (no cute mnemonic, no catchy pun, an odd scene) it might turn out to have been more memorable than you thought. I have these stories that pop up in reviews sometimes, that I see the word and I know instantly that I had a bad story for that kanji, but as long as you link all the primitives together somehow, you will be able to remember it...Just have some more faith in your memory and the SRS. Don't worry about the story until you find that you can't remember it, but definitely not while creating it.

I've gotten to the point where I can "feel" if a story will stick. Really, you shouldn't question why your mind remembers one thing and forgets another. That blob of junk behind your eyes is too complex.

See the primitives, sort them together for some kind of mnemonic image, and move on. Review ten minutes later.

With really abstract primitives, using a character can help a lot. Choosing one you can relate to in your life a lot or has a strong image (these sometimes just come from brands even!) is best.

Someone recommended for "say" to use Socrates. I've finished a philosophy minor, so this was a great one for me. I try to make my stories somehow relate to Socrates, greece, whatever. I also use Colonel Sanders (KFC) as the fingers primitive. Those stories somehow typically relate to stereotypes about the south or KFC.

Try making a character with strong connotations that you know a lot about, and build stories around those connotations.

For keywords that are similar, like 'rebuke' and 'admonish,' try remembering the keyword in a sentence, perhaps. Find a famous quote or something, anything that helps you remember the word. Then tie that into your story.

And yeah, using Socrates for 'say' is pretty popular. Personifying some of the more abstract or boring primitives makes life easier. Replacing them with interesting characters is a perfectly fine (if not linguistically correct) alternative.

Also, you can try looking up the kanji, and finding some common Japanese words that use it, and just remember one of those. You will do that eventually, anyway.

Or just brute force it and don't worry about it too much. Getting all 2,042 in column 4 takes a while. Don't stress too much.

For rebuke, I use the fact it's such a biblical word, the holy are always rebuking the heathens and such. Picture some Spanish catholics butchering the heathen natives of South America with their godly words.

For chastise use the similarity with "chaste" and imagine the mother "chastising" her daughter, the words gluing to the poor girl and warding off her lusty suitors.

For admonish, and this is kind of cheating but for admonish I remember it's the longest of the "rebuke/chastise/admonish" trio, hence has the most complex kanji. Come up with whatever story you like for 警, and use this observation to distinguish that from the other two. (Incidentally 警 is used in 警察 = keisatsu = police, and indeed police lend themselves pretty well to an admonish story...)

EDIT: Wow, just counting the letters now I see admonish actually is TIED with chastise for longest. Weird, somehow to me it just "looks" longer. Oh well, it works for me, maybe it can still work, as crazy as it is...

these are the same lessons that have given me trouble. My progress has slowed to a crawl ever since I came upon these couple lessons... I really need to get back to daily increments again.

Dont worry. More confusing kanji and you will find these easier. As you train yourself to learn kanji, you get better at it! And start to do it better.

Funny, I'm at the same place you are - absolutely blazed along from lessons 1-16, then hit 17 and slowed to a crawl. Couldn't remember any of the new kanji to save myself - it was really weird. So I'm giving myself a slight respite - no new kanji, just reviewing old ones. I'm sitting on 395 at the moment, so in any case I'm in a much better position then I was when I started RTK at the end of May.
The "Chastise/Admonish/Rebuke" are definitely a tricky bunch to get mixed up. Admonish, as snispilbor mentioned, is used in Keisatsu, so that has really helped me to remember it much better.....

Well.. I guess.. 18 is the first truly long chapter and if my memory serves me right it might have been a tricky one.. The one with 130 characters was a real bother and I actually stopped there on my first try. Fortunately I got through it with my second shot.

I think you really do get better at studying them and it gets easier. There was another hard part around half way through but that time I just "sat it through" only reviewing the old cards for weeks.

Don't feel bad for having to crawl. The downhill will be waiting. You're just not there yet.

With similar keywords like "Chastise/Admonish/Rebuke", I kept them straight by focusing on the connotations and slight differences in meaning between the three of them, and then built my stories out of that. Or rather, I let them influence the mental imagery I felt while recalling the stories, since I'm pretty sure I just used the most popular stories from the study section and shoehorned Socrates in as needed.

For me, "chastise" implies punishment, in order to make sure a mistake doesn't happen again. "Admonish", on the other hand, is more like a warning to not do something. "Rebuke" is similar to "chastise", except without the subtext of rehabilitation. It's basically just telling someone that they're absolutely horrible for what they've done.

Once you've gotten them all right in reviews several times, it gets easy.

I started speeding up at around 300, and in the mid 400's, it's biting me. Basically, the trouble I find is that I'm not spending enough time on building block elements that are used over and over. Failing that, any kanji they appear in also fail. For instance, I realized today I hadn't learned "Just So" very well, and therefore I also failed "Topic" completely, even though I remembered my story.

Composite kanji are a cinch when you really get the base components nailed.

Also, I'm finding the first SRS repetition on this site is often too long. If I enter something today, and it doesn't come up for, say, 3 days, and I've added more kanji each day in-between, the odds of my first repetition being successful is very low. Ideally, the next day I'd drill today's kanji for the first time. I may have to add some manual repetitions (using KanjiGym or something) to help with this.

You don't need to do that. It's wasted effort. Just stick with the way things are, and if you don't remember, fail it. Just make sure to review your fail pile once a day. That way, you get the exact same effect as if you'd been re-reviewing once a day, with the added benefit that you're only doing that for cards you don't remember-- instead of doing it with all of them.

And fail pile review isn't that bad. Just look at the list, look at the keywords, try to remember the kanji. If you can't, then leave it in the pile another day after you tweak your story. That's been my approach to it, and it works just fine. Extra reviews outside of the system defeat the purpose of the system.

And as for intervals and such, if I can manage a 90+% retention in the 4th+ stack of the whole book, then anyone can.

I think Fabrice's intervals are fine. Just use the fail pile as you need to, and don't be shy about it.

Thanks for the posts guys!
All were helpful!

rich_f Wrote:And fail pile review isn't that bad. Just look at the list, look at the keywords, try to remember the kanji. If you can't, then leave it in the pile another day after you tweak your story. That's been my approach to it, and it works just fine. Extra reviews outside of the system defeat the purpose of the system.

This makes it even easier: Review the failed stack

I don't think extra review is bad at all as long as it doesn't hinder your progress through the book. I have been havin the same problem with the sites intervals and for the latter part of the book I have just had anki as a buffer before adding the cards to the sites SRS.

Just think about it. Even when you're reading something you're, in a sense, reviewing the characters.
Also those characters that are often used as elements in other charactes get much more review and they also are the characters that I remember the best.

Reading is different from flipping through a stack of flash cards. (I should know, because that's how I first approached RTK... and it's really slow.) Reading is fine, but you don't need to constantly flip through your flashcards outside of reviews. Trust your brain to do its thing, and go do things that are more fun than flipping through flash cards. I know it feels counterintuitive, but once you fix an image in your head for a kanji, you shouldn't have to fight to remember it. You should just check to see... "Hinder... oh, that's where the guys at the Pinnacle will Hinder you if you don't have the proper Badge on." If it doesn't flow like that, then it's best to fail it, because as recent research shows, fighting to remember something is the worst way to learn to remember it easily.

So yeah, indulge your brain's laziness.

True.
But the point remains; the more you expose yoursef to the characters the easier it gets. Be it reading, writing practice, flipping cards, etc.
If you're really studying, you can't limit your exposure to the characters to only when you're reviewing and exposure everywhere all the time is what made the Japanese so good at reading and writing them in the first place..

I have been picking up pace considerably towards the end of the book and have been adding around 60 to 70 new cards a day for a while now (something quite new to me!) and reviewing a card more frequently in the beginning of its lifespan has helped me to pick up pace and immediately work on the more difficult cards.

[card] --> doesn't pop into mind right away! --> FAIL. --> Let's try again in an hour. --> Next!

Granted, I have been dedicating all my free time to finishing this as soon as possible for a while now.
I'm getting sick of the vol 1 and want to move on. After that i's just lazy review.

Reviewing (end exposure) is the mother of learning!

rich_f Wrote:Reading is different from flipping through a stack of flash cards. (吾 should know, because that's how 吾 first approached RTK... and it's really slow.) Reading is fine, but you don't need to constantly flip through your flashcards 外 of reviews. Trust your brain to do its thing, and go do things that are more fun than flipping through flash cards. 吾 know it feels counterintuitive, but once you fix an image 中 your head for a kanji, you shouldn't have to fight to remember it. You should just check to 見... "Hinder... oh, that's where the guys at the Pinnacle will Hinder you if you don't have the proper 章 on." If it doesn't flow like that, then it's best to fail it, because as recent research shows, fighting to remember something is the worst way to learn to remember it easily.

So yeah, indulge your brain's laziness.

Oh ok i always give myself roughly a minute to remember the story, sometimes i feel it coming, if i do i give myself another minute, but if i feel and know that nothing is coming, then i fail it.

Cause i figured slowly but surely if i give myself to find the story it will come to me faster and faster as more reviews kick in... but I guess i'll see when i come across them again.

Again thanks for the replies! i just hit 450 now and will see how things go next morning for review

Yeah, that's why I said there's a difference between reviewing and exposure. Exposure is encountering the characters/language in the wild, in its native format. That's good. The more exposure, the better, because that's the sort of output you're striving to be able to make.

But reviewing is something that shouldn't be thought too much about, IMO. It should be something you kick back and just "do." Like a check of your brain's inventory. And if something isn't there, then you can take a minute or two to make an effort to put it back.

Also, when it comes to learning characters for the *first* time, yes, I agree that you should take a few minutes to get to know the character, think of a good story, lock that visual of the story in your head. Shove it in there good. And then don't think about it too much.

Finally, the struggle to remember is one of those things that's just counterintuitive. You think, "If I try really hard and remember this, it'll be a victory!" But your brain thinks, "I don't need to really learn this, because all I have to do to remember it is to struggle like this for a minute or two." Someone posted the article about the research done on that recently, I think. It's called "Tip of the Tongue" research, I think. The researchers advised dropping something if you can't remember it right away and looking it up later.

My point of view is this-- the least effort for the most knowledge.

rich_f Wrote:Finally, the struggle to remember is one of those things that's just counterintuitive. You think, "If I try really hard and remember this, it'll be a victory!" But your brain thinks, "I don't need to really learn this, because all I have to do to remember it is to struggle like this for a minute or two." Someone posted the article about the research done on that recently, I think. It's called "Tip of the Tongue" research, I think. The researchers advised dropping something if you can't remember it right away and looking it up later.

I have read the article a while back, but I'm not fully convinced that trying to remember something actually has that effect to that extent.. Haven't dug into the subject very deeply though.
I dont think that the brain thinks like that. More propably it'll think that "this is important and I need to remember this in the future", but it needs to dig it up. Instead you just give it the info and the struggle becomes unnecessary. Hence, conserved energy to be used elsewhere.

Im thinking about when you're trying hard to remember something (a name for example) and its right on the tip of your tongue but you just don't quite remember it. You give up and a half an hour later it just pops into your mind. Clearly your unconcious mind didn't give up on it even if you did.

Despite what I said previously, I think it really helps to give yourself a couple of seconds (ten, twenty..?) to remember the character or get a trail of the story that you can then follow to the character. Ofcourse if you seem have absolutely nothing, it doesn't really help to try in spite. Checking the card conserves energy and you still have given your subconcious the signal that this is important.