if this was my thread....
I would have deleted it by now- kanji forums > ppl giving their opinions about nerds

Well it it MY thread, and it has gone from education and entertaining to completely asinine and off-topic.

I'm not one to delete a thread anywhere though- might as well see how it develops.

So, do your friends think you're crazy for learning Japanese? Cause mine do. My parents too. And it ain't for the women, though some of them are smokin'

It was off-topic but there were some good points about self confidence and respecting your self in the midsts but.. yeah. =P

To return to the question at hand; my friends don't really think I'm crazy for my language hobbies (or they just don't tell me).
I have always been quite independent and not cared about what anyone says and from the start I have been quite enthusiastic about Japanese to anyone who would listen. My experience is that people seem to like you best when you're just your anthusiastic self and those who don't like it just tend to slip away and keep clear of you. =P

Granted, I'm no high schooler and frankly I'm quite happy that I'm past those times.
Most of my friends are the intellectual type and share the same types of interests so I don't stand out so much. =P


Ps. To add my 5c to the nerd conversation: The intellectual types that I know are anything but stereotypical nerds with all the bad hygiene and stuff.

Back to off topic.

Remembering now, I had less trouble with girls in highschool, even with all the stigma around being nerdy, than now, 3 years after college (tought the nerd stuff hasnt changed, just my apearence is deceiving).

You got a paradox.

captal Wrote:Well it it MY thread, and it has gone from education and entertaining to completely asinine and off-topic.

Off-topic is not all bad. Ok, that whole bit from snispilbor was borrowed from prevailing pick-up theories of the day but that doesn't invalidate his main argument.

Now, I am, of course, way too arrogant to have even noticed any negative comments on my Japanese studies (or any other behaviour) coming from whoever. But being in the process of relocating to Japan, I now have to answer the 'why?!' question many times each day. Initially I tried giving a sincere explanation each time but quickly discovered that only a handful of people could relate to that. Now my standard response to 99% of these questions ranges from 'to bang sl*ts' to 'I would like to be reunited with my long-time girlfriend with the purpose of creating a family, Sir' - depending on who is asking. Now, THAT is something everyone can relate to. Never mind the real reasons.

QuackingShoe Wrote:While I'm not going to deny that I'm socially awkward or anything, the irritation in this instance isn't because of some sort of embarrassment over people thinking I'm learning Japanese for the girls. I don't care that they're thinking that about me; they're wrong. I'm irritated because anyone who would think that in the first place is not someone I want to be around, at all, ever. Especially if they follow it up with comments about how sweet and timid and other racist trash they are. And as a general thing, I respect women and myself too much to say or think anything like your example, and would never want to impress any guys who would be impressed by such a speech.

Euh... so do you not care or are you irritated?! You surely can't be both?.. And I do hope you counter those 'sweet and timid' statements with conclusions derived from your personal experience to demonstrate how such views are based on limited or outright wrong information (as - for the record - I think they are)? Because, of course, just calling something racist / sexist trash is never any kind of argument, is it? Oh, and generally, there isn't much of an overlap between those who 'respect women too much' and those who actually sleep with them - but that's just one of those sad things about life and is definitely off-top by all standards, so, the vulgar idiot that I am, I'd better shut up now...

Back on topic, I will say that when the subject of the kanji does come up, if I mention that I'm learning how to write the kanji and am on kanji number 1500 or whatever, I usually always get a "WOW" in response.. Then when I eleborate that I still need to go back and learn how to make words and learn how to pronounce all these kanji, I usually get another "WOW" and a look of amazement. People may question the motives from time to time, but most everybody respects the dedication that it's going to take to get where I want to go.

Shibo Wrote:Back on topic, I will say that when the subject of the kanji does come up, if I mention that I'm learning how to write the kanji and am on kanji number 1500 or whatever, I usually always get a "WOW" in response.. Then when I eleborate that I still need to go back and learn how to make words and learn how to pronounce all these kanji, I usually get another "WOW" and a look of amazement. People may question the motives from time to time, but most everybody respects the dedication that it's going to take to get where I want to go.

Kanji is definitely the most impressive aspect of Japanese to the average Joe. Its easy to appreciate the aesthetic beauty of its intricate forms, which is why I have seen Chinese characters tatooed on everyone from the likes of biker-guys to librarians. I think people also sense the historical legacy, and how its continued use represents the love of the human expression over the generic efficiency of alphabetic scripts. There have been times within the histories of both China and Japan in which Hanzi, or Kanji, almost went extinct, much as has already occurred in the likes of Vietnam and Korea (which only continues to use it for names). As far as I know, its also the only form of ancient picture writing like hieroglyphics and yet still in use in modern times. If that doesn't blow their minds, I don't know what will!

Forgive me for being misunderstood. I wasn't meaning to say that smart people are socially inept/ unwashed/ etc, and I think some people took it like that. I was saying, people who are ostracized because they're "smart", aren't really ostracized for that reason at all but rather for other reasons.

You can't despise what you can't perceive, and you can't actually perceive intellect, it's not like a visible aura. What you CAN perceive is people using inappropriately long words, or bragging about their grades, or making bad life decisions, etc. That's DIFFERENT from intellect but in Western cultures the difference is blurred. I've taught math to some of the athletes here at OSU and was surprised to see they were some of the most intelligent people around. That doesn't mean they can solve rubiks cubes fast or recite digits of pi (well, they probably could if they really tried, but they're smart enough to see that in this brief life those things don't contribute to their goals).

I used to be the worst type of nerd, I wish my cooler friends had given me some tough love. I probably would've hated their guts for it at the time. Along those lines, thanks to everyone who humbled me here and helped me see my other post was a bit inappropriate. And much thanks for the generous patience as I explored this tangent!

Dragg Wrote:There have been times within the histories of both China and Japan in which Hanzi, or Kanji, almost went extinct, much as has already occurred in the likes of Vietnam and Korea (which only continues to use it for names).

Can you happen to give me some references for that information? That isn't a snotty way of saying I don't believe you, I'm genuinely curious. I'm interested in the history of the characters (both in China and Japan) but have only poked into it a little here and there and am not sure where to look to find more information that isn't laid out in a pretty mind-numbing fashion.

Shibo: I think it's kindof interesting people are impressed by that. I mean, I can see why, and would expect it, but personally haven't gotten any of it. I think people are under the impression that if I'm learning them this quickly I can't possibly be actually learning them.. combined with the fact that I'm not learning the readings simultaneously (just picking them up here and there), I think people think I'm wasting time on some scheme.

QuackingShoe Wrote:Shibo: I think it's kindof interesting people are impressed by that. I mean, I can see why, and would expect it, but personally haven't gotten any of it. I think people are under the impression that if I'm learning them this quickly I can't possibly be actually learning them.. combined with the fact that I'm not learning the readings simultaneously (just picking them up here and there), I think people think I'm wasting time on some scheme.

I dunno that it helps me that I've been working on this since November and have only increased my pace recently. I've been studying Japanese every night for hours, and most of my friends and coworkers know it. It's the reason why I won't go drinking with people, etc. So the longer it goes on the more they realize how serious I am, I guess.

I was a party and my girlfriend told everyone I was studying Japanese so I could read manga. She meant to say that I was studying Japanese so I could read literature but my current level was only good enough for manga. Now everyone thinks I'm some sort of weird otaku.

QuackingShoe Wrote:

Dragg Wrote:There have been times within the histories of both China and Japan in which Hanzi, or Kanji, almost went extinct, much as has already occurred in the likes of Vietnam and Korea (which only continues to use it for names).

Can you happen to give me some references for that information? That isn't a snotty way of saying I don't believe you, I'm genuinely curious. I'm interested in the history of the characters (both in China and Japan) but have only poked into it a little here and there and am not sure where to look to find more information that isn't laid out in a pretty mind-numbing fashion.

Shibo: I think it's kindof interesting people are impressed by that. I mean, I can see why, and would expect it, but personally haven't gotten any of it. I think people are under the impression that if I'm learning them this quickly I can't possibly be actually learning them.. combined with the fact that I'm not learning the readings simultaneously (just picking them up here and there), I think people think I'm wasting time on some scheme.

There is a nice article on Wikipedia under the title "Japanese Script Reform" regarding the original intents to abolish Kanji. I'd link you there directly but I'm on an Iphone so that would be a pain.

As far as China goes, I couldn't find any references, although I distinctly remember reading something about it. I don't know how serious they were, but I seem to remember that the government even briefly flirted with the idea of completely replacing Chinese with Esperanto (That's Communism for you).

As far as the usage of Chinese characters in Vietnam and Korea, I learned those facts from a Vietnamese friend in junior college and a Korean roommate. Apparently, Western script was brought to Vietnam by a French missionary if memory serves me correct. The Korean government changed their script for the sake of ease and logic.

suffah Wrote:I was a party and my girlfriend told everyone I was studying Japanese so I could read manga. She meant to say that I was studying Japanese so I could read literature but my current level was only good enough for manga. Now everyone thinks I'm some sort of weird otaku.

HAHA! I'll bet they think you smell bad too! J/K

Oh, good god. To think I started all this by bringing up high school in the first place.

someone Wrote:... under the title "Japanese Script Reform" regarding the original intents to abolish Kanji. I'd link you there directly but I'm on an Iphone so that would be a pain.

Man, I would be so mad if Japan got rid of kanji. Even with the limited kanji I know, it's just so much better to read them than to read kana or romaji. And besides, they're just awesome!

editnipped quotes

Omg, please stop this quoting hell.
And I would be pissed too if Kanji were ditched.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Omg, please stop this quoting hell.

Whatever do you mean?

mentat_kgs Wrote:And I would be pissed too if Kanji were ditched.

Same here. I mean, I can understand the arguments against using Kanji, but I also don't think anything good would come of it. Although, being totally selfish the way I am, most of the bad of hypothetically suddenly abolishing kanji would be the fact that I wasted so much time learning them.

suffah Wrote:I was a party and my girlfriend told everyone I was studying Japanese so I could read manga. She meant to say that I was studying Japanese so I could read literature but my current level was only good enough for manga. Now everyone thinks I'm some sort of weird otaku.

Now that, is genuinely funny .

I would support the overnight abolition of kanji wholeheartedly. And put some damn spaces between your words, yo.

To me, kanji is what makes Japanese endearing. They have interesting history, they're beautiful- especially when written by skilled calligraphists (and attractive Japanese women), and they're more efficient. The amount of information conveyed by a single kanji can take up to a sentence for English to convey.

Sure they're tough to learn, but if we can learn them in a few months, surely the Japanese schooling system can eventually figure out a way to teach them more efficiently, and keep them as part of their culture.

I hope the day never comes that the Japanese decide to get rid of kanji- I might have to learn Chinese then!

[ファブリス]

It's not bound to happen anytime soon (just my feeling), and even then, kanji literacy would probably remain useful for many many years.

As for the original topic, nobody ever called me crazy for learning Japanese.

At work, once in a while someone notices my practice sheets (reviewing kanji at my lunch break) and even though they don't seem to be really interested in the language they always find it impressive. The language is still seen as something difficult.

There seem to be a stigma attached to the manga universe, but then the same could be said for graphic novels in general. It's generally well accepted and still you can find people who regard graphic novels as a lower kind of literature. Maybe even as literature for children or uneducated persons, despite the fact that some graphic novels deal with really serious and difficult subjects.

Does it matter though?

What's nerdy in passion? Passion is what drives most people to do something better of their lives. Passion can take your nerd man stereotype and put him on the stage talking to a huge audience passionately about what he cares about.

And as for motivations, imho, any motivation is good. Manga, or Japanese girls or sumo or whatever, if it drives you to learn a language that's awesome.

I agree wholeheartedly about passion! Passion is so important in life- if we aren't passionate about what we are doing, then why are we doing it? That's why I run with my passions- Japanese doesn't make the most sense for me to learn, but it's my passion right now, and I hope it remains that way for a long time.

Thanks for making our passions a lot easier to pursue Fabrice. It must be a lot of hard work, but the number of hours you've saved us all is massive. I don't think I would have been able to get through Heisig's book without your help. When I started I was looking up every kanji with a dictionary via # of strokes or radical- which was such slow going- and coming up with all of my own stories would have been a lot more work. I know you get thanked a lot here, and really more of us should put our money where our mouths are, which is my plan when I'm not a student anymore and actually have income. (Khatzu at AJATT and you are the top 2 on my list!)

Anyway, I do find that people think it is impressive- especially Japanese and Chinese people. Especially when you can correct them! That's one of my goals- be better at kanji than Japanese people.

You captal, I was going to say something but you said it all.
And I already promissed myself that when I get to 2042 I'd donate.

captal Wrote:Anyway, I do find that people think it is impressive- especially Japanese and Chinese people. Especially when you can correct them! That's one of my goals- be better at kanji than Japanese people.

Correcting a native at kanji would be pretty awesome. Someday... I'd have to get to Japan somehow first...

playadom Wrote:

captal Wrote:Anyway, I do find that people think it is impressive- especially Japanese and Chinese people. Especially when you can correct them! That's one of my goals- be better at kanji than Japanese people.

Correcting a native at kanji would be pretty awesome. Someday... I'd have to get to Japan somehow first...

Situation: I'm at a podium talking to the Japanese culture instructor for our base's orientation brief. Some US Marine private comes up and wants to know the kanji for Samurai. The instructor writes the kanji "待", so I say "Umm, that's Matte. You added an extra stroke" The Marine pops off "How the hell you gonna correct a Japanese person on Japanese". Obviously, the instructor realizes she made a mistake though as Samurai is 侍 ("waiter" keyword).

Don't be overly impressed that you'll be able to correct kanji for Japanese people. We're learning as adults and in a manner that encourages retention and correct stroke order. They were force fed it as children. I just found the above situation a bit more amusing that normal. Now, telling some sailor that that "cool looking" tattoo on his arm (洗濯機) means washing machine is a reward unto itself.