Mcjon01 Wrote:And, to make myself feel better about such an off-topic post, I'll end by stating that yes, my friends' affectionate new nickname for me is "that crazy kanji mother******", due largely to the fact that I've become a bit of a Heisig hermit since I got on summer break.

Off topic or not, it was still entertaining, which is just as important

Mcjon01 Wrote:being able to communicate easily is a lot more effective than trying to pantomime your intentions.

That depends on your intentions lol

A lot of people just don't understand that learning a language is fun so they keep asking why and simply don't get it.

I'm wondering if it is more an adiction than anything else...

Sometimes I want to give the real reasons. Such as getting to learn about your own culture compared to the rest of the world. When I took Greek culture classes, we were always talking about the 'others'. These include the Greeks and the Persians, and the so called saying "Culture is supreme", "each culture considers itself superior".

Now, I've tried to say this once and it just flew by people. They can't handle the truth lol.

tomusan Wrote:Japanese Girls are hardly my only reason, but its a motivator when I come across girls here that I want to talk to, but don't have the necessary language skills yet. Frustrated at my own ignorance I then study harder.

Exactly my motivation as well!

Not only do people find it crazy to be studying Japanese at my high school, they also find it to be considerably nerdy. Anyone who even touches manga gets a label on them - for being childish, immature, or just plain stupid.

Whatever, though. They're just high schoolers.

AryllWind Wrote:Not only do people find it crazy to be studying Japanese at my high school, they also find it to be considerably nerdy. Anyone who even touches manga gets a label on them - for being childish, immature, or just plain stupid.

Whatever, though. They're just high schoolers.

Its ironic that the same teens who do that kind of labeling are the same ones who flock in droves to see movies like Iron Man, Spider-man, and Transformers. I remember a certain NBA player who was asked by a local news man if he ever played any basketball console games. The player looked straight at the reporter with a look of disgust, and he exclaimed how video games were childish and that he doesn't do childish things like that. And this was coming from a guy who gets paid millions to run frantically back and forth with a bouncy ball!

I think society still just needs to lighten up and realize that we all have a childish side that needs to be expressed in some form or another. Its where our sense of fun, fantasy, and adventure stem from! Some would even say that without it, life wouldn't be worth living, and the millions of dollars that go to movie directors, artists, comedians, and musicians show just how desperately all those hypocritical scrooges really want to recapture that sense of repressed childlike wonderment.

So yeah, I say be proud of whatever weird-ass hobby that you have! Its one of the things that make you human after all.

Of course, those same teens would ALSO think it's lame to read Spiderman COMICS. It's only the movies that are ok. Since comics in general are stigmatized in the US (English-speaking culture at large?) as being for only children and perverts/losers. Meanwhile, in Japan, comics are kosher, but cartoons are stigmatized as being for only children and perverts/losers. Every culture has it's stigmas, and everything you can possibly do is stigmatized in some culture. Just goes to show we're all wrong, and idiots besides.
It's one of the single most fun (and simultaneously irritating) things about learning about other cultures. As you see where they clash, you learn how blatantly wrong all of their assumptions are.

QuackingShoe Wrote:Of course, those same teens would ALSO think it's lame to read Spiderman COMICS. It's only the movies that are ok. Since comics in general are stigmatized in the US (English-speaking culture at large?) as being for only children and perverts/losers. Meanwhile, in Japan, comics are kosher, but cartoons are stigmatized as being for only children and perverts/losers. Every culture has it's stigmas, and everything you can possibly do is stigmatized in some culture. Just goes to show we're all wrong, and idiots besides.
It's one of the single most fun (and simultaneously irritating) things about learning about other cultures. As you see where they clash, you learn how blatantly wrong all of their assumptions are.

Yes, one of the most fascinating aspects of learning foreign culture/language is seeing those differences and becoming more aware of such tendencies. It has made me more tolerant, but has also disappointed me by how superficial people everywhere can be. One of the most embarassing traits of humanity is our incessant need to categorize everything we encounter into some sort of hierarchy, which as you have shown, is often completely baseless and irrational.

However, I would say that in general, Japan is much less hostile to nerd culture. For one thing, intelligence and education are highly admired. Contrast this to to the US, where you can literally be beaten up in many schools for "acting smart" or using big words. In Japan, its completely opposite. I once saw a documentary filmed in Japan that was all about how sometimes low achievers would be severely beaten by pretty much the whole class. (its interesting to note the more collectivist nature of the beatings, whereas in the US, bullying tends to be carried out by a smaller group). Obviously, Japanese culture isn't any better or worse than American, but differences in value systems can certainly allow an individual to fit it with a certain group over another. Its no coincidence that most of my friends from college are from Asia. We just tend to share the same interests and values.

Btw, I think the Japanese stereotype against avid anime fans might be due to the fact that most anime is based off manga. Therefore, if you "over-enjoy" anime in Japan relative to the manga, you could come across as too lazy or stupid to read the original. "Losers" in Japan seem to be correlated with the perception of lazy, stupid, ugly, or perverse. Here in the US, laziness can be a kind of slacker-chic cool, and trying too hard at intellectual pursuits seems much more pathetic.

Dragg Wrote:Here in the US, laziness can be a kind of slacker-chic cool, and trying too hard at intellectual pursuits seems much more pathetic.

HAH , thats exactly it man... especially how there's those people in school who act lazy and say they never study for tests but oddly enough get good marks.... or is it just my school that has hundreds of geniuses? haha

Yo lazar, I sincerely was one of those people. One of those that never studied and got the best grades. But that was just because competition was weak. When I got out of school, and later out of university, everything got more interesting.

Kanji learning is being specially hard. And specially interesting.
Today a friend called me genious for learning 1100 kanji in 3 months, but hey, it was genuine hard work.

Hard work for something that is worth to work hard is one of the most rewarding things in life so far.

yeah, I agree. It sounds fake coming from what I said before, but I'm one of those lazy people that doesn't study unless its absolutely necessary And why I like kanji so much is because their worth investing the time to learn, and so I study them every day..

all I'm saying is that its annoying when the masses say they don't study, do good and memorize 100 kanji a day in no time, like our friend from earlier... Sure, I'm not saying its impossible, but don't make it sound easy, unless you have a method better than Heisigs- in that case, please share it with us

Perhaps us people that don't really study much and get good grades are naturally drawn to Japanese due to the difficulty. That's one of the reasons I'm so interested.

It is cool that people say "woah that's such a hard language" but that's not why I chose to study Japanese- I chose it because it's a challenge and because I was going to visit Japan for a month. If I don't have a challenge I'm not motivated- that's why my MBA classes are boring- in general they're easy and not challenging, just a lot of work.

Kanji is challenging AND work lol.

I keep saying to me that kanji is easy and that it wont be much work, tought.
I like to fool myself ^_^
Maybe we are all crazy afterall.

Nerdiness, even in the U.S., has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with behavior. "Smart kids" are despised not because they're smart, but because of manifold other traits like bad hygiene, looking down on others, sucking up to teachers, etc.

Part of learning big words, is learning when to use them. Kids who use big words in school aren't despised for the big words, but for using them inappropriately.

You should embrace your hobbies completely and be passionate about them. This is a BIG TURN ON to girls, regardless of the hobby. The key is to do it in a non-weird way. There WILL be certain conversations that come up. Don't avoid them- learn to predict them and roll with them.

I'm a mathematician, and mathematics is even "worse" than Japanese as far as telling people what you're interested in. I used to avoid bringing it up, and change the subject when it was brought up. I was very apologetic about it. This was a major turn-off: girls could tell that I was ashamed of my own passions. It's incongruous. Now, when the subject comes up, I say something like.. "Ever see Good Will Hunting? That movie's based on me " If telling people about Japanese leads them to talk about Japanese girls, EMBRACE IT! Say something like.. "hell yeah man Japanese chicks are the hottest babes on earth. The other day I met this jgirl at the supermarket and I started talking to her in japanese and she was alllll over me" Talking about hot girls will win you lots of social points among guys, and girls will be impressed that you can be passionate about something so stigmatized.

I find I have EXTREMELY good results in night clubs (phone numbers, makeouts, etc) when I start talking about languages in general. Like I'll start talking to a girl saying things like "One of these days I wanna learn every language on earth" etc. etc. Coming from a well-dressed, fit guy, this totally blows the girls minds because hey, you're not a meathead like everyone else in the club. It's $$$MONEY$$$.

If you're suffering socially due to "nerdiness", I *guarantee* you it's not because of the specific things you're nerdy about (japanese, star wars, math, or anything). It's hard and you won't like me telling it to you, but nerds suffer because they're socially inept, they dress bad and they smell bad and they're out of shape. The good news though is these things can be fixed.

I'm going off on a tangent. Back to the subject at hand.. the point is, don't hide your passions, embrace them and use them as your greatest asset.

Haha, you sound like a real catch. How about not caring what people think and do what you want and don't be an arrogant jerk about it? Yeah I'm pretty sure all smart people don't bathe, that's obvious. You know they all have glasses and stuff, what's up with dat? How dare they talk to teachers like a normal person and try to answer questions in class. Making everyone look bad, that is. They shouldn't *show* that they like learning stuff, they should just keep that stuff squeezed up into a tiny ball deep inside, and pretend to like team sports and such.

When I'm with my homies, I cruise up to a chick and I'm all, like, hey babe, and she's like, you aren't some smelly nerd are you? and I'm kinda, no I'm a math jock, a number gangsta, I'm down with the figures, ya know? And they're all over me, man.

snispilbor: be careful, you are not at alt.seduction.fast and there are not many ladder theoreticists around.

phauna: Dont worry, in highschool you are doomed to find imature people. Every one is so young and cheerful. When people grow older they start to learn 2 or 3 things about life and try take more care about their own lives.

If I'm weird because I'm learning japanese, heeey, good for me!
But I'm still disapointed because someone said it wont help me get a cute japanese chick.

Well.. I just got an A.S. in mathematics, and I spend several hours a day studying Japanese. Not once have I been called a nerd, been made fun of for my behaviors, or been called socially inept.

I bathe regularly. I also happen to wear glasses. I'm a runner(thus in very good shape). I don't dress badly. I don't suck up to teachers. I most certainly do not look down on others.

If I were female, this post would have been much, much more violent.

@snispilbor

You have to remember that my long-winded rants were specifically in response to a comment regarding high school behavior. You seem to be talking more about adult behavior which is generally more inclusive. And college is a completely different ball game because people are actually there by choice. I don't know what high school you attended or maybe you just forget, but many high schools in the US are extremely cliquey and if you want to be popular its all about relating to your peers, and/or posturing an air of mainstream manufactured rebellion. And yes, in the average US high school or junior high, being overly passionate about math, science, or Dungeons & Dragons (lol) is usually a one-way ticket to ostracism. Sure, you will still have friends but they will most likely be the ones that sit away from everybody else and occasionally get pelted with rocks. This is generally true no matter how clean or socially "normal" you are. I virtually guarantee you that even the most mainstream, passionate, and charming conversations about D&D (lol) or astrophysics, or calculus will turn off at least 90 percent of all highschoolers and up to 95 percent of HS girls.

I generally agree with you Dragg, but every once in a while there is one of those guys who loves all the nerdy stuff, is usually very smart and witty, and ends up making lots of friends with a variety of types of people because he talks passionately and cleverly about his nerdy hobbies. Not apologizing for your hobbies is often very hard to do if you have been ostracized about them before, but those clever people can usually turn the conversation in their favor and avoid ever being embarrassed by people about their hobbies, so they aren't apologetic. It's definitely a skill I would like to have because those kind of people are always the ones who are most passionate about what they do and are generally more successful as well.

@snispilbor
P.S. I still stand by what I said earlier about the differences between American and Japanese culture. If you look up to the words "otaku" and "nerd" in wikipedia and compare the two, you will notice they are very similar in describing both obssession and social ineptitude except for an important detail: in Japan there is no stigma regarding intellectual pursuits.

As far as you claiming to be passionate about your hobbies, I totally agree. But I don't think its as big of a turn on as you think it is. For example, when you are saying things like "I'm like the guy from Good Will Hunting", it seems to be more than a bit of a wash. Its as if you are aware of possible preconceived biases, and you are doing your best to steer the girl away from them. All the more power to you, but remember, no pro athletes have to think up such diversions. They just say they play basketball, or whatever.

Btw, I'm so passionate about my hobbies that I say I'm as cool as that "old sciencey dude in the wheelchair". It gets me more play than you can possibly imagine.

snispilbor Wrote:If telling people about Japanese leads them to talk about Japanese girls, EMBRACE IT! Say something like.. "hell yeah man Japanese chicks are the hottest babes on earth. The other day I met this jgirl at the supermarket and I started talking to her in japanese and she was alllll over me" Talking about hot girls will win you lots of social points among guys, and girls will be impressed that you can be passionate about something so stigmatized.

I think you're misunderstanding. While I'm not going to deny that I'm socially awkward or anything, the irritation in this instance isn't because of some sort of embarrassment over people thinking I'm learning Japanese for the girls. I don't care that they're thinking that about me; they're wrong. I'm irritated because anyone who would think that in the first place is not someone I want to be around, at all, ever. Especially if they follow it up with comments about how sweet and timid and other racist trash they are. And as a general thing, I respect women and myself too much to say or think anything like your example, and would never want to impress any guys who would be impressed by such a speech.

If they accused me of learning Japanese because I was obsessed with anime or manga or something, then I do agree with you in general spirit. While I chafe somewhat at the stereotyping and their need to employ it, and they aren't anything at all similar to my sole reasons for studying the language, I own my interest in both because those interests do exist. And yes, I think that, in general, that reaction will get you more mileage than blushing and shuffling your feet. As a meddler in quite a large number of 'nerdy' things, I learned not to be abashed by them a long time ago.

snispilbor Wrote:I find I have EXTREMELY good results in night clubs (phone numbers, makeouts, etc) when I start talking about languages in general. Like I'll start talking to a girl saying things like "One of these days I wanna learn every language on earth" etc. etc. Coming from a well-dressed, fit guy, this totally blows the girls minds because hey, you're not a meathead like everyone else in the club. It's $$$MONEY$$$.

Word, this is so true. I'm not really in a place where you could call me a "ladies-man" (yet... >:P), but when I start talking about how I love languages and I'm learning Japanese, girls just lap it up. Like, this one time I was out of town and eating dinner in this sports bar in the lobby of my hotel, and I ended up chatting with this absolutely stunning waitress (Romanian) about Japanese. She knew nothing about the subject, and had no personal interest in it at all, but that didn't stop her from hanging out at my table all night trying to get me to talk to her in Japanese. Of course, I had almost no conversational knowledge in Japanese at that point, but that didn't stop me from just making stuff up that sounded like Japanese. XD

And I totally agree with you that it doesn't really matter to people what your interests are, so long as they're totally congruent with who you are, you aren't ashamed of them, and you're capable of sharing them with other people in a way that's fun and lets them experience some of the same passion for it that you do. I mean, I'd wager that it's just as easy to enthrall someone with an epic D&D tale as it is to drive them away with a snoozefest about the mechanics of skydiving. There's a lot to be said for delivery.

snispilbor Wrote:It's hard and you won't like me telling it to you, but nerds suffer because they're socially inept, they dress bad and they smell bad and they're out of shape.

Wow, stereotypes. Guess even the Heisig forums aren't immune, ne?