I've got A Dictionary of Japanese Particles and A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar. The latter I know is normally the preference but I find Particles to have a much more SRS-friendly layout; just write what you see and add it. Whereas ADoBJC is more complex and would rely more on your own ability to interpret the explanations into your own words (something I'm ***** awful at).

I was thinking I may as well stick with Particles, then, seeing how I think it's teaching me virtually the same thing, and afterwards filling in the cracks with ADoBJC. Does this sound like an okay thing to do, or is there some sort of massive downside to A Dictionary of Japanese Particles I'm not seeing?

Also, is this the type of thing a lot of you guys did? Just taking a grammar book and copying the sentences, translations and explanations into an SRS? It's so incredibly painstaking and repetitive. I love learning a new piece of grammar but damn, it takes me about 10 hours a day to both review and add. After what's seemed like ages I've only really made a dent in my books.

After I'm finally done though I should be ready for Kanji Odyssey right? And then hopefully I'll muster some kind of half fluency over the course of studying. That's what's really motivating me, an almost straight line to my goal.

Anyway I digress, does this all seem like a good enough plan? Thanks once again for your help.

For sentences, I'd recommend only copying from dictionaries sparingly for the reason you mention, that it's repetitive. It's a little easier with, say, copying sentences from Tae Kim's guide cut-and-paste, but I would still make sure to mix it up with stuff you're reading online, Japanese Wikipedia or blogs or podcasts or whatever.

And while I don't have the dictionaries you mention, I have about 15 different Japanese grammar books, textbooks, primers, etc. There's a lot of overlap. I wouldn't worry about "making a dent" so much as getting a wide variety. What matters is that you're reading Japanese regularly; some grammar points you'll remember after just one sentence, others will take more exposure.

I don't know what level you are, but I prefer to learn most of my new vocabulary from actual reading, and use the SRS primarily for learning new grammatical points. I'm working my way through the Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar, but I would never dream of using all of the sentences because, as you say, it becomes way too repetitive.

Have you tried using a scanner? Might make things a bit faster. A good flatbed with basic Asian-language OCR will make things less brutal. There's no real virtue in typing in sentences, I've found. If anything, it makes you less likely to stick to it.

I wouldn't recommend the pen scanner for the particle dictionary, because all of the boxes drawn around the text mess up the scans, but a flatbed would probably tear through it.

ADBJG is a really great book with a lot of info in it... but yeah, it can be a bear to go through.

I'll admit I prefer UBJG because it's organized. It's not necessarily better than ADBJG, but it follows a nice progression.

I've been just doing KO with the odd stuff added from UBJG when I have some extra time. When I finish UBJG, I'm moving on to "How to tell the difference between Japanese Particles," by Naoko Chino, because I find it's a very well-organized book that covers a lot of the same stuff (not all, of course) by function.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

rich_f Wrote:Have you tried using a scanner? Might make things a bit faster.

This was an excellent idea. I'm currently putting it into practice. I can't tell whether it's quicker or not yet but it's certainly a lot easier.

Does anybody know anything about this book?

http://www.amazon.de/Japanische-Grammati...608&sr=8-2

It's supposed to be released in May and will probably be the new standard (?) book on Japanese grammar in German. 550 pages, wow. I'm thinking about pre-ordering it, but not sure. Well, the author looks pretty damn knowledgeable:

Quote:Markus Gewehr studied chemistry at Johannes Gutenberg-University in Mainz, Germany. He received his Ph.D. 1996 in the group of Professor Horst Kunz on the use of enzymatic cleavable protecting groups in the synthesis of peptides and glyocopeptides. In 1990-1991 he studied at Kyoto University with Professor Norio Ise and Professor Hiromi Kitano in the field of macromolecular chemistry and chemical engineering, accompanied by learning the Japanese language. Since then, he is a regularly visitor to Japan and is the author of essays on different topics in anthologies about Japan. The results of his research activities are published in several journals.

After joining BASF Aktiengesellschaft in Ludwigshafen, Germany, in 1997, Markus Gewehr worked on fungicide active ingredient discovery research. By translating patents and other chemical literature from Japan, he gained experience in text analysis of scientific documents written in Japanese. He is involved in over 160 patent applications related to different patent families. Within BASF's agricultural division, he is now responsible for global strategic IP management.

Massive, whoa! It doesn't say anything bout the book though... :\

Anyone?

I'm a beginner as well and have Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, UBJG, All About Particles/Verbs/Adverbs, Japanese the Manga Way, TaeKim's, Japanese Sentence Patterms for Effective Communication and a few other sources that I can't recall at the moment.

After playing around with them all and making my way through most of TaeKim's I am now focusing 100% of my effort on the Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication (JSPEC) book. It has 142 sentence patterns with each covering a new grammar point. The explanations are extremely concise but actually very good. It then provides about 4 example sentences for each and then moves on.

I was doing TaeKim's at the same time but after entering sentences for a few days from JSPEC I kept coming across points I had already covered in TaeKim. The JSPEC explanations made so much more sense to me, in most cases, with far fewer words.

The only problem I really have with JSPEC is that the vocabulary is a little steeper than I would like at this time but honestly I'm not really concerned with that. I'm just highlighting the grammar point as my pass/fail measurement in the sentence. My plan is to just get the sentence entered as fast as possible and then jump into KO20001 to let them both reinforce one another.

I second the recommendation for JSPfEC. It's extremely amenable to the sentence method.

@stoked-- It looks interesting, but I don't think anyone will know anything until it comes out in May. It's hard to tell if it just covers the basics, or if it goes into any sort of depth.

Just remember that you can also chose not to use any grammar book at all.
Many of us ignore grammar completely, focusing on vocabulary and text comprehension.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Whereas ADoBJC is more complex and would rely more on your own ability to interpret the explanations into your own words (something I'm ***** awful at).

You'll get used to it, and i recommend giving yourself a challenge as it introduces you to a lot of new linguistic concepts and terms, if you learn them now, you won't have to learn them later. You will have a greater appreciation of the language too, and languages in general.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Also, is this the type of thing a lot of you guys did? Just taking a grammar book and copying the sentences, translations and explanations into an SRS? It's so incredibly painstaking and repetitive. I love learning a new piece of grammar but damn, it takes me about 10 hours a day to both review and add. After what's seemed like ages I've only really made a dent in my books.

There is no point in memorising sentences, just read over the rules (most likely more than 5 times in some cases), go over the examples, and wala. Try formulate your own sentences using the grammar rules you just learnt. Applying the things you learn is the only way you'll only ever learn. [After you learn the derivation and integration rules i dont see you trying to memorise 100 example sentences, rather you apply yourself and DO 100 different types of questions, then new questions involving other creative mathematical concepts.)
Write a diary using those new grammar rules so you force it in each day, but in a different context, instead of randomly bashing in the same sentences.
In anycase you'll find yourself eventually memorising some sentences off grammar books just because of the amount of times you had to refer to them, that still doesn't mean that you should go out of your way to memorise them completely.

Hmm, as a total beginner it's very interesting to hear what other people are doing, and have done!
As a total beginner, I of course can't say for sure, but it sounds a decent plan - they're certainly good books.
Personally, I was thinking I'd start by working through Tae Kim's guide (not necessarily entering every sentence, though it has the definite advantage that you can just copy+paste) and All About Particles, then try to read (very) simple stories. Ones like this, for instance, seem simple enough, since I know almost no Japanese, but can pick up a little:
http://thejapanesepage.com/ebooks/issunboushi/1
(I'd be interested to know how easy/not it looks to you guys? I love fairy stories, so it fulfills the fun criteria for me, but I guess wouldn't appeal to everyone)
Hopefully I could read things like that (entering any useful sentences), while also working on learning more complex sentence structures from books like JSPEC (and thus working up to being able to read more complex stories). So, I'd suggest also looking for stories, etc. you can read, for more variation - there seems to be a lot that you can get for free online.
There was also a good tip in a topic earlier today, about changing names in sentences from grammar guides to those of Japanese celebrities/public figures, which might make entering sentences more interesting and help make them more personal, as well as allowing you to learn a few extra names.

activeaero Wrote:I'm a beginner as well and have Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, UBJG, All About Particles/Verbs/Adverbs, Japanese the Manga Way, TaeKim's, Japanese Sentence Patterms for Effective Communication and a few other sources that I can't recall at the moment.

After playing around with them all and making my way through most of TaeKim's I am now focusing 100% of my effort on the Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication (JSPEC) book. It has 142 sentence patterns with each covering a new grammar point. The explanations are extremely concise but actually very good. It then provides about 4 example sentences for each and then moves on.

I was doing TaeKim's at the same time but after entering sentences for a few days from JSPEC I kept coming across points I had already covered in TaeKim. The JSPEC explanations made so much more sense to me, in most cases, with far fewer words.

The only problem I really have with JSPEC is that the vocabulary is a little steeper than I would like at this time but honestly I'm not really concerned with that. I'm just highlighting the grammar point as my pass/fail measurement in the sentence. My plan is to just get the sentence entered as fast as possible and then jump into KO20001 to let them both reinforce one another.

I agree JSPEC is a good book with simple clear explanations. I read some of it, but ran out of momentum to finish mining the sentences. If someone could share their spreadsheet when they are done, that would be cool.

I think Tae Kim is good but some of it's popularity is due to the fact that it is free and easy to copy and paste from rather than the fact that it has the best explanations. I think some other books are superior for explanations.