I hope this is in the right place, but because it's really about RTK (even though it's personal) I thought I could post this here. If it belongs somewhere else... Just move it, and sorry for the trouble.

Today, I'm at 1293. I've been doing at least 25 new kanji a day, but am trying to get closer to 30. Today I did 29 (to finish a lesson). If I can keep it up, it will take me another 30 days max to finish (learning new kanji).

The actual learning has become much easier, I don't have an estimate of how long I spend learning new kanji a day... But I think I've found the best way for me, finally (after the half way point, ugh).

The way I go through RTK-related things each day is this;
In the morning I try to do all my reviews in one session. This becomes a bit tiring when it's 30 new cards and about 100~110 expired cards... But some days it's "only" 70-or-so expired cards so it isn't as bad.

Then I do something else, review words or sentences for example Or watch anime, read something (mostly in English... the reading heh).

If I have to work, all this has to wait until the afternoon.

If I don't have work, I come back to review my failed cards at least an hour and a half after the first review. Anything I can recall at that time I click 'learned'... If I still have some failed ones (usually 2 or 3, if I failed 20 the first time) I'll just review those again and again if I review new kanji (not on the site) or before learning a few more kanji.

Learning new kanji:

I learn 10 at a time. I've tried doing the 25 in one session, and I can but doing 10, doing something else for a while - review those 10, add another 10 - do something else, review kanji 10-20 for the day, and add another 5~10. works best for me.

Around 6 pm I review everything, and the kanji I could remember from 0-20 I won't review again, the last 10 I'll review once more (they only had 1 review) and then it's finally finished for the day.

... It doesn't take a long time in hours, but because it's spread throughout the day I can't say I'm "finished" with the kanji for the day before re-reviewing the last 5~10, usually around 8 pm.

It's tiring, but I try to remember it's only another month. Just keep going like this... Just keep going. >_>

At times I do think "If I did 25 a day from the start, like this, I'd probably be finished by now!" ... Oh well.

Just keep going, right?

Yea, I understand where you're coming from. I'm about a hundred kanji behind you, and for the past few day's I've been having 100+ expired cards, about 50 or so failed cards from the previous day, and then review about 30 new cards from the previous day, and then about 30 new ones to learn. Sometimes I just wanna say I can't take this anymore, and I almost want to quit. But I look at how far I have come in the past two months... learned how to write over 1000 kanji... there's no way I'm willing to give that up after all I've put into it so far! So I just trod on through it, day after day, and just reaaaallly look forward to the day when I hit that last chapter...

You guys will hit the end of RtK1 before you know it.

Savara, I used a system very similar to yours, except I did my learning in batches of 5. I would learn 5 new Kanji, do something else (like work, hehe) and then do another 5.

Just don't make the same mistake I did and stop reviewing a few months after you're done. I've just started going through RtK1 again using Japanese keywords with a target of 25 characters per day.

I hope that won't be a problem, I'm very used to reviewing words and sentences every day (only skipped 2 days in the past... almost year ). I think I'll try to slowly move everything over to Anki (with my sentences) so I can review them together, would eventually be easier I suppose... (Also because this review system just is very harsh on failed kanji. If you get them wrong in Anki, and right on the next review... next time can still be a few weeks/monhts (depending on how long the last next time was). ... While I think that you need to be _really_ strict when learning new things, eventually (I hope!) it doesn't have to be *as* strict.

I even told a friend I'd organise a party for when I'm 'finished' (geh, with learning new kanji... of course.)... I might actually do it, as well. And get a cake and write something like "Yay finished those 2000+ kanji. I really must be crazy " hehe.

Thanks for your replies.

one who waits expectantly to finish will feel tha pain of doing kanji XD

I moved my RTK kanji over to Anki after starting the sentence method. It was the right thing to do and lowered my over all study time. I dont think it makes since to do two SRS`s at the same time...

2 isn't the problem, as I prefer to use Anki for sentences and Mnemosyne for words. (I could just use 2 decks, but I tried that for difficult English words once (in another deck for Anki) and I forgot about it in a few days.)

How did you move everything over, can you just import it? That would be the easiest, but can you import it into an existing deck without weird things happening to the old entries? I suppose it would be faster even just because of the fact that it doesn't have to load after you rate your answer. But at the moment this site is the best thing there is Especially because I need new stories every day and it's just faster to click "copy" than manually copy-pasting everything into Anki.

Finished reviewing for today, now start with the first 10 new kanji of the day... Don't give up Sava xD

There is a plug in that allows you to move your RTK data to anki. Check the Anki wiki or search this site for the topic (I started the thread).

I am still not clear why you would want to use two SRS"s at the same time, when there are both for Japanese.

Sarius24 Wrote:one who waits expectantly to finish will feel tha pain of doing kanji XD

How very Tao de Ching... and very true too

I just like to keep my sentences and words separated. While you could always do that in categories, I'm so used to it now that I'll keep it this way. Maybe I could try importing the words into Anki, if that's possible... Hmm.

Does anyone of you work with more than 1 deck, in the same SRS?

I just came across a post in my livejournal... I started RTK march 3rd. So now I have the date. It actually was the third time, I suppose. I looked into it in June last year (when I was just starting with Japanese) but discarded the idea after reading through the first 100 kanji.

According to my profile I signed up here early September. I don't even remember doing that, but I do remember it was *very* easy to do those first 100 because I had already seen them before (just reading through the book, then). And the 3rd of March I returned to finally give it a serious try.

While at this pace it will take 23~28 more days to finish (ugh I'm impatient now. Probably *because* I started calculating how long it will take me from now on, since last week.). In a way that seems to be a long time, but I've already been doing this for 3 months so another month isn't bad I guess

I've been thinking about pushing for 50 kanji a day, but I'm afraid that will only make things harder, as the amount of kanji to be reviewed every day are still increasing and I'm not sure how bad it would become if I would do 50 a day... (Anyone knows? At the moment I usually fail somewhere between 20~30 kanji a day)

Geh, I think I really should stick to 30 a day (which is still nice progress for each day, I guess) and stop worrying about when I'll finish once again xD But it's hard now I'm past the half way point.

1616 at the moment. Will do at least 20 more today, I hope 26 so I'll have exactly 400 kanji left.

I'm really really eager to just get it over with and finish RTK already. I realise that it will take me a max of 10 days~2 weeks if I keep my old pace... But I'm pretty sure I won't be able to keep myself from rushing through the last 100~200 kanji.
Which isn't too bad I suppose.

I managed to clear my failed pile every day so far. I still have 7 to clear today, but other than that, most cards are in stack 4 or up (700+ in those stacks, 350 in stack 3, 299 in two and 204 in stack one.)

Reviews have been harder lately, usually I only get around 70 % correct... But I think that's because of the fact that I've been adding more cards each day. Recall for the unseen cards is in the 90 %, but 3 days later I fail a lot more. It's still fine though I guess... right? I'm keeping up with failed cards and all the problem kanji will eventually stick with reviewing once I'm finished with adding new stuff... right?

So... Thoughts? I hope I'll be able to keep myself from going *too* fast during the next few days and keep the pace at 30~40 kanji a day... Or switch to 50 for a few days and once I have 200 kanji left, try to do those in 2 days. ...

That a good plan?

Or should I be wise and keep going at 40 a day until the end?

Savara Wrote:Reviews have been harder lately, usually I only get around 70 % correct... But I think that's because of the fact that I've been adding more cards each day. Recall for the unseen cards is in the 90 %, but 3 days later I fail a lot more. It's still fine though I guess... right? I'm keeping up with failed cards and all the problem kanji will eventually stick with reviewing once I'm finished with adding new stuff... right?

To answer your questions: right. (There's not a lot more to add to that really )

Savara Wrote:So... Thoughts? I hope I'll be able to keep myself from going *too* fast during the next few days and keep the pace at 30~40 kanji a day... Or switch to 50 for a few days and once I have 200 kanji left, try to do those in 2 days. ...

That a good plan?

Or should I be wise and keep going at 40 a day until the end?

I think all three ideas will work out just fine. However, personally I would have chosen for option 2: switching to 50 kanji a day for a few days, and once you have 200 kanji left, try to do those kanji in 2 days. My motivation for this choice is that it would be quicker than option one and by doing 50 a day you would still have a good retention rate. The final 200 kanji might make you end up with a lower retention rate for those kanji only, but at least once you've had those, you will be finished, finally.

I use traditional flashcards, maybe because I'm just old fashioned, but I dislike using SRS stuff. See, before I even studied Japanese, I had a solid background in memory systems and mnemonics and I have a very good idea of how my memory works. I know instinctively which ones I'll remember and which I won't, and use that knowledge to review ones I know I'll remember less frequently. SRS disconnects me from that process. I'm much better at retaining information when I can trust myself.

Anyway, try this: use traditional flash cards. One thing I hate about SRS is using a computer. When I actually take the time to write the kanji out, my retention rate skyrockets. Take a normal flash card, and write on it vertically six or seven kanji with the English meanings on the back so you can flip the card over with your thumb and forefinger to read the English. (Of course, review so you have to remember the kanji from the English)
Then keep the flashcards with you. Review a card during a commercial break, on a train, in the car, or in line somewhere.

It's far, far more effective to spread out your reviewing in different situations, than at a single time and place on the computer. You learn to remember in different situations, to think on your feet.

alyks Wrote:When I actually take the time to write the kanji out, my retention rate skyrockets.

Who says you can't write it out when you initially learn the kanji, or when you quiz on a computer? I also find that writing out the kanji helps my memory, but thats not something that relates to computers in my opinion.

If you have a cellphone with a dataplan you can use anki on the go as well. (or use a pda if you have one)

While using traditional flashcards might work for you, I don't think they would work for the majority of people who want to retain knowledge of the entire RTK1/3 set. Traditional flashcards are much more suited to memorizing smaller datasets for an exam or such.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

alyks Wrote:When I actually take the time to write the kanji out, my retention rate skyrockets.

Who says you can't write it out when you initially learn the kanji, or when you quiz on a computer? I also find that writing out the kanji helps my memory, but thats not something that relates to computers in my opinion.

And who said you can't use Anki with traditional cards? The optimal method is obviously a combination of both. Computers are cold and unfeeling. The key to memory is emotional experiences and how we relate to what we already know. When you see your own handwriting, you're reminded subconsciously of how you wrote it out. You see a kanji and think "Gee, I wrote that top line a bit crooked" and you instantly will never forget that top line.

Computers don't allow that emotional background, while flashcards don't let you optimize the SRS aspect. The best is in both worlds.

But I think we're getting off track. People have posted how much reviewing can be a pain. Using traditional flashcards with SRS could very well help to take that burden off if you don't crawl back to the computer so much to do every bit of reviewing.

alyks Wrote:I use traditional flashcards, maybe because I'm just old fashioned, but I dislike using SRS stuff. See, before I even studied Japanese, I had a solid background in memory systems and mnemonics and I have a very good idea of how my memory works. I know instinctively which ones I'll remember and which I won't, and use that knowledge to review ones I know I'll remember less frequently. SRS disconnects me from that process. I'm much better at retaining information when I can trust myself.

Anyway, try this: use traditional flash cards. One thing I hate about SRS is using a computer. When I actually take the time to write the kanji out, my retention rate skyrockets. Take a normal flash card, and write on it vertically six or seven kanji with the English meanings on the back so you can flip the card over with your thumb and forefinger to read the English. (Of course, review so you have to remember the kanji from the English)
Then keep the flashcards with you. Review a card during a commercial break, on a train, in the car, or in line somewhere.

It's far, far more effective to spread out your reviewing in different situations, than at a single time and place on the computer. You learn to remember in different situations, to think on your feet.

I've rarely heard something so ridiculous. Using an SRS is 'faster' than using traditional flashcards, that's the point. You can review your paper ones in inefficient, random order, or you can just review the ones which are allocated. Are you using your physical cards in a Leitner type box system, and if so, are you lugging them about on the train?

Retention for me is 90 percent, according to Anki, and retention isn't even important. What's important is doing as much as possible, as quickly as possible. I could retain one hundred percent of one flash card, but what's the point? I could stare at my one, home made flashcard daily for hours, in order to keep my one hundred percent retention rate.

With a computer it is faster to make cards, faster to review them, and yes, you are allowed to write them down to practice them. Also, you can add audio, pictures anything you like. Of course physical cards are rarely going to have pictures, and never any audio. I've added 736 cards this month, with retention of ninety percent. I doubt you can make 736 cards a month physically, but if you can when will you be studying? And you can review your SRS anywhere you have a mobile, if you have a web function.

Accept my humblest apologies if you really are making upwards of 700 physical flashcards monthly, and reviewing them.

alyks Wrote:And who said you can't use Anki with traditional cards? The optimal method is obviously a combination of both. Computers are cold and unfeeling. The key to memory is emotional experiences and how we relate to what we already know. When you see your own handwriting, you're reminded subconsciously of how you wrote it out. You see a kanji and think "Gee, I wrote that top line a bit crooked" and you instantly will never forget that top line.

Computers don't allow that emotional background, while flashcards don't let you optimize the SRS aspect. The best is in both worlds.

But I think we're getting off track. People have posted how much reviewing can be a pain. Using traditional flashcards with SRS could very well help to take that burden off if you don't crawl back to the computer so much to do every bit of reviewing.

The cold, unfeeling computers allow you to not have to hire a secretary to organise your hopefully massive collection of cards. So seeing your own handwriting is a really emotional experience, yet seeing a sentence you picked out of some manga you're reading with a nice picture attached, possibly even the actual frame of the manga scanned and copied in, will have you feeling nothing at all. If you are really so emotional about your handwriting you could scan it in and use it, and this would still be far better than physical cards. Even feel free to write them out badly for extra memory retention (although why one would want to review cards written in a beginner non-native's handwriting is beyond me.)

You could always use a handwritten font also.

Hey! My handwriting is very good! And a handwriting font just isn't the same as my own true to life handwriting! I use flashcards, and I write it with MY handwriting, and seeing my own handwriting is just so much more memorable than computer fonts, you know? Geez though, you get all worked up over somebody recommending an alternative method to anki. Reminds me of how people over at TJP get all worked up when we recommend the alternative method of RTK. Whatever happened to keeping it friendly? Anki's fine, use it all you want, I'm not saying its bad. It's very good and I use it myself.

And YES, I do use my beloved box for holding cards, but it's not like I take them ALL with me. I just keep a single box in my messenger bag. I review successful ones a lot less, also.

I have a lot of travel time for my job, and I'm away from my computer an awful lot. So, I do make traditional flashcards. I make about 20 a day, and I review them 2 or 3 times during the course of the day. When I get home in the evenings, I put those frame numbers into RTK, and the physical cards go into a shoebox, nice and organized in case I need them later, which so far hasn't happened. I do agree that the physical cards help me out a lot, as I write the kanji out, and I write my story out. It helps me to remember things. That being said, once they go into the online SRS, I've never needed to use them again. I think that computer learning is ideal, and I do not think there will ever be a subsititute for the daily *online* review that most of us do here. However, I do believe that the physical cards serve a real purpose for me. I wouldn't be able to review nearly as often without them. They're an invaluable part of my learning process, although the lifespan of each individual card is extremely short. So I sorta agree with you, Alyxs, that the physical cards serve a purpose. As for you riling up the members, I think that they thought that the "cold, unfeeling" computers line was so ridiculous that they couldn't help themselves, haha.
*edit: typo ~_~*

alyks Wrote:Hey! My handwriting is very good! And a handwriting font just isn't the same as my own true to life handwriting! I use flashcards, and I write it with MY handwriting, and seeing my own handwriting is just so much more memorable than computer fonts, you know? Geez though, you get all worked up over somebody recommending an alternative method to anki. Reminds me of how people over at TJP get all worked up when we recommend the alternative method of RTK. Whatever happened to keeping it friendly? Anki's fine, use it all you want, I'm not saying its bad. It's very good and I use it myself.

And YES, I do use my beloved box for holding cards, but it's not like I take them ALL with me. I just keep a single box in my messenger bag. I review successful ones a lot less, also.

You could also just scan your cards. Plus like has been said an image from a manga or something else memorable is at least as good as seeing your own handwriting. Computers are only as 'cold and unfeeling' as you make them.

Id like to hear how Savara is doing now.

I, for one, also feel that that it is worthwhile using the RevTK review system AND having a hardcopy (ie., flashcards). Personally, I love having something tangible around my desk that is proof of my progress.

Before I even started using this site, I printed off the flashcards (they were available free on the net, I believe I found the link on a forum here) for the whole book. As I progress through RevTK, I not only write in my personal story for each kanji in the study section, but I pick up a pencil and write it on the back of my flashcards. They were printed on standard A4 paper, with 12 cards on each page. Once I finish the 12 cards, I add them to the review section on the site, and I add my flashcard page into my ever-growing binder of kanji that I know. I don't primarily use my binder for reviewing, but it's great to leaf through once in a while, or take with me on trips. I try to stick to the Leitner system as much as possible though.

One issue touched on in this thread is something I have been wondering about: learning in a variety of circumstances and situations. Maybe it's not such a big deal because I currently reside in Japan - but I always do my new cards and reviews in front of the computer (I wouldn't actually say it's 'cold and uncaring' as a few others seem to think - I spend so much time with it... ). Sometimes I see a kanji on a train or streetsign, and I struggle for a moment, or longer, to recall it. I can't help but wonder if I was in my comfortable computer chair - would I not have scribbled it down without hesitation and clicked on 'Kanji remembered' and moved on without a problem.

At any rate, I am confident that through my calligraphy classes and other learning endeavors I'm not totally putting all my eggs in one basket - but it is a little frustrating when I get caught off guard (different fonts, kanji handwritten by Japanese people, etc.).

I love my comfy study area. It'll be good, though, when my job here is done (I definitely want all 3000 kanji), and then I can move on to more natural communications and putting my study into practice.