After finishing RTK, I promptly dove into some various resources. First, I went through Tim Tae Kim's guide to Japanese, which I found to be just great. A bit before I finished mining sentences from that, I ordered All About Particles from my local bookstore, and I've gone through that now. My deck now has about 1000 sentences and my vocab deck has 800 words. But I have a problem now about resources and I'm not really sure what to do.

You see, ordering that single book All About Particles was troubling enough for me, and the only reason I was able to do it was because I was able to order it from my local book store. I'm a young learner on this site living in a very strict family. I am only 16, but my parents discourage my learning of Japanese, which makes the overall matter slightly stressful for me and I have to do it without them knowing. A friend of mine did me a great favor by ordering All About Particles for me (I then paid him back for it), but their family refuses to order anything else for me because they don't want to go 'against my parents will.' I personally don't care what my parents believe as Japanese-learning is something I very much enjoy doing and WILL do, but I'm having a hard time with doing it with my parents in the way and especially with getting my hands on some really good resources.

I have another friend who might be able to help me order something through her family, but I don't want to order anything too expensive I don't think - and besides, my dad would get suspicious if I spent too much money. I have had my eye on "A Dictionary of Intermediate Grammar" for a while now, and it looks just fabulous to me, but it is incredibly expensive. I would certainly love to get it, but I'm not sure if it's safe trying to get it in my situation. If it is very good I will certainly do my best to obtain it but I'm not sure what I am able to do at this point. I was wondering if there are any other recommended resources? I have a decent grasp on grammar after only reading that single book and Tim's guide, but I don't know which step to take next and I was hoping to get some advice on which book to choose. After all, just ordering a single book is very stressful because if my father knew I was spending all that money on something like that he would be angry and would probably take it away from me.

So.....Any suggestions on which steps to take next to advance my Japanese? If a book is expensive but wonderful I WILL do my best to get it but I don't know for sure if I am able to. I don't know if I'll be able to get a book at all at this point...

I also have another question. J-J cards: how do I do them? If I am mining sentences from resources that are in English, what exactly do I put on the answer side? Vocab in Japanese? Or an answer of my own in Japanese (I am not sure I would be capable of phrasing my own answers in Japanese). I want to get started on those as soon as possible now that I have reached 1000 cards, as is recommended on the All Japanese All the Time website, but I don't think he gives that great an explanation on how to go about getting the answers.

I would be very grateful for any replies. I am trying to make the best decision, as I really can't make any mistakes in terms of ordering books to learn from.

Thank you very much for any suggestions.

I haven't seen the dictionary that you mentioned, but the general consensus of many people on this forum, including myself, is that Kanji Odyssey book 1 would be a great place to start for someone of an intermediate level such as yourself. There are a couple thousand sentences in there based around the most frequently used kanji. The price is not too bad either. Sorry to hear that your parents are giving you a hard time. Good luck!

No offense to your family, but it's hard to believe in this day and age that there are parents that would try to prevent their children from learning, especially for (what seems to me to be) racist reasons.

"A Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar" is probably THE best reference guide you can have for Japanese other than a good dictionary like Kenkyuusha shin waei/eiwa daijiten (or a kokugo dictionary if you're advanced enough). That said, it IS a reference book, not a textbook. You'll need to be able to function without structure to get the most from it. RTK1 and the three volumes of the grammar dictionary are the only Japanese books I ever recommend to anyone.

You know your situation a lot better than I do but if at all possible, I would encourage you to try and discuss things with your parents. Things will be a lot easier for you if you can convince them of the merits of learning Japanese. After all, ordering books is the least of your problems if you're serious about learning. You're going to have to speak Japanese at some point. However, if you think that pigs will fly before your parents come round to the idea then as they say in Japan, しょうがない.

I went through the Japanese for busy people series and the Japanese for College Students books. I won't compare them to others, but they were good.

AryllWind Wrote:I also have another question. J-J cards: how do I do them?

I do this in Anki. I have facts with the following fields:

Target Expression
Target Expression Kana
Example sentence with gap
Definition or hint for target expression

An example entry would be

大学
だいがく
＿＿＿で日本語を勉強しました。
高校のあと。教育の最高機関。

I then have three cards. One tests me on my ability to identify the target expression given the example sentence with a gap and the definition/hint. The second card tests my ability to write the kanji given the kana, the example sentence and the definition/hint. The third card tests my ability to produce the target expression kana, given the target expression and the example sentence.

If you've gone through those resources, then I suggest starting to look free tools online.

Do you have a computer in your own room with high speed internet?

Start watching dramas. Find one you like that has a script at dramanotes.com If you're young and into Japanese, I assume you enjoy manga. Find the RAWs of manga and start going through them.

If it's not too boring watching news might be something you can enjoy too.

And there's also always wikipedia! It may sound stupid kind of, but if you really just want to go ahead and see some Japanese, go to the English wikipedia page, find something you're interested in, and then to the left of the article look at the box that lists what other languages this article is in. 9/10 times it will have a Japanese article also, as Japan has a large wikipedia.

Also, I don't know where you live, but if it is a big enough city, check nearby libraries. They may have some grammar books there (but having done what you have done, you have a strong foundation of grammar). If you live near a University and can check things out from their library, see if they have any books of interest.

If you really are near a university, it might even be worth it to email a faculty member of the Japanese program (if they have one) and ask if you can meet, talk about different books, ask for recommendations, and ultimately see if maybe you can borrow one or two to see how they are (so you can make an informed decision). My professor has tons of textbooks in her office; it's pretty much a Japanese bookstore. I think if a professor saw such a young and motivated learner, they would really want to help.

Some of this may seem pretty out there, but you seem really motivated. Whatever happens, keep at it. Tenacity will win out in the end, and your parents can't control your life forever.

AryllWind Wrote:I also have another question. J-J cards: how do I do them? If I am mining sentences from resources that are in English, what exactly do I put on the answer side? Vocab in Japanese? Or an answer of my own in Japanese (I am not sure I would be capable of phrasing my own answers in Japanese).

For vocabulary you can use kokugo dictionaries (J-J dictionaries). I really like the dictionaries used by Yahoo Japan ( http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/ )

If you don't feel confident with your level of Japanese, you can use J-J cards and Wakan. Wakan is a program that comprises a set of tools for learners of Japanese - and Chinese - and uses EDICT. One of its features is that it can read automatically your clipboard. So, you can put your favorite SRS at the top of your sreen - using J-J cards - and Wakan at the bottom. If you have any doubt concerning the words used in the Japanese definition of a word, just select and copy that word to the clipboard and the English meaning will be displayed as if by magic by Wakan.

Quote:I would be very grateful for any replies. I am trying to make the best decision, as I really can't make any mistakes in terms of ordering books to learn from.

Thank you very much for any suggestions.

Have you thought of using digitalised books? I think it would be the best option under your circumstances.

BTW, if you can afford an mp3 player, that would be a wise investment.

Good luck and 頑張れ！

Khatzumoto gets the answer side of his J-J cards from monolingual dictionaries - the answer side contains Japanese definitions of words he doesn't know (along with readings). I personally find the Yahoo dictionaries great for this, though I've heard good things about the Sanseido dictionary too. Both are free and available online. Be prepared, however, for a fairly significant learning curve before you can functionally read Japanese dictionary definitions.

As for material from which to learn, if you're willing to take a less structured approach to your learning, you could try just studying websites/articles/forums etc that relate to topics you're interested in. There are ample online resources (dictionaries, grammar references) for you to look up expressions and patterns you don't understand yet. This approach may not get you a JLPT certificate any time soon, but you will be able to enjoy your Japanese skills more and more.

Seriously the internet is bigger than any book you can find soooo many resources there. Also if you have an ipod you can read japanese notes from it.
About your parents just ignore them after a while they won't even care.
My family used to bug me about why am learning japanese. It's been three years now and now it just seems normal to them now.
Tell your parents off XD (JOkes.....not really)

i have a friend who is Muslim and his parents give him hell about learning japanese all the time... they keep trying to push the arabic language on him... if he brings his japanese friends to his house he says his parents always talk crap about them in front of them but in their own language... so yeh some people are pretty racist... it sucks... anyways good-luck man ^_^

I can't understand why your family could possibly be against your learning Japanese.

To be so young and craving such heavy learning is amazing. It's dissapointing that your family isn't looking at your potential.


In less then two years you'll be an adult.. But please don't wait until then to get serious with the things you're passionate about. Perhaps you can somehow confront your family and discuss this seriously.


To restrict a son or daughter from learning has to be a form of child abuse!




Anyway, take the risk. Talk with your teachers and others who appreciate learning. Maybe they can fit some sense into your parents' heads.

If you haven't already, check out the Essential Resources sticky. There's some good stuff in there, especially the audio books. If you can't buy books, there's tons of stuff online(I don't have many books myself). Here's some links, they may or may not be listed in the sticky.

http://www.jlptstudy.com/ Level 3 may have some grammar sentences for re-enforcement.
http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewList.php?lv=3 Grammar
http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt2/ Upper level grammar, vocab. You should apparently avoid the sound files.
http://nihongo.3yen.com/category/intermediate/ Tae Kim's other site
http://jisho.org/words/ Like WWWJDIC, but a cleaner look. Nice for sentences, but be careful, they may not be natural.
http://www.mognet.net/artists.php　Song lyrics, in kanji, romaji and English.
http://www.timwerx.net/language/sp_adverbs.htm I dunno, I find this kinda useful.
http://www.geocities.com/easykanji/jlptgrammar.html JLPT1 2 grammar, I think.
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/japanese/jos...st_jpn.htm More basic grammar. Re-enforcement is always good...

And if you're not bored yet, here's some reading resources:
http://hukumusume.com/douwa/betu/index.html A bunch of kids stories
http://www.njuku.com/ Articles and audio.
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/for...=6241&PN=1 various audio books and stories.
http://www.asagaku.com/ Children's newspaper
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Gaien/7211/ Old Stories of Japan...with bad English translations.
http://www.genpaku.org/alice01/alice01j.html Alice in Wonderland
http://www.genpaku.org/alice02/alice02j.html Through the Looking Glass
http://www.voiceblog.jp/nippon/ Articles with audio
http://eloise.cocolog-nifty.com/rodoku/ Audio literature stuff

There...maybe that will help. It's pretty much all I've got, once I filter through my bookmarks ^_^;

In my experience, one reason your parent(s) might be against your Japanese is the idea that if you learn Japanese, you'll go to Japan, which is far far away. I know my parents, although proud of what I've achieved in Japanese and glad that I've done it, also have a part of them that wishes I would just learn Spanish and stay nearby. Or at least did, anyway.

I second Jarvik7's remark-- those two dictionaries are, as far as I'm concerned, a virtual necessity for anyone serious about their Japanese ability, but are dictionaries, so generally can't be used alone. Although I'll randomly open it up to a page, read through whatever grammar entry pops up, and try and use it that day in some way. I've picked up a ton of random little points like that.

Probably the most efficient use of money would be an all-round textbook, though. That'll cover your kanji, grammar, and vocab and usage. Genki's rather popular.

But the number one thing I recommend is making Japanese friends. If you live somewhere where there's Japanese people around, I'd make some Japanese friends. That's the cheapest yet most effective way, if you do it right. (i.e. don't hang out and speak English all the time-- you don't learn through osmosis.)

If you don't have any Japanese around you, then go to http://worldfriend.net and make some penpals, or try that http://lang-8.com site, even. Just find some way to produce Japanese and be checked by natives.

Couple that with a proper self-study course, and you'll be golden.

yeh parents can be bad about not wanting you to travel to far away Japan but I can assure you that your grandparents opinions will be 10x worse haha!!!

I appreciate the support, you guys.

I don't believe I'll be able to convince my parents at this point, so the plan is to learn to read Japanese before I actually practice speaking it. And yeah, Hashiriya, my grandparents don't like the idea much either. But thankfully, I don't see them that much, so they aren't able to frequently berate me for it.

I don't know if it's because my parents are afraid I will move far away. They're kinda just like that...domineering, can't make my own choices. But it's okay. When I hit 18, I'll go off to University and live away from my parents so that they can't make the decisions for me. In the meantime, I'll study Japanese, which I am passionate about, as well as I can.

Yukamina, those are some EXCELLENT resources - in fact, I wasn't even aware that there was such a vast variety of things like that around on here. Thanks for the tips on J-J cards, you guys, and the other various resources. I read about 2001 Kanji Odyssey and looked it up, and I think it looks really great - plus, it's quite cheap. If I can, I'm going to try to get myself that. I think that will last me in example sentences for a while.

This is such a supportive community. ありがとうございます、皆！！

As far as being able to acquire books and things, I remember when I was about your age I had a problem with my parents not wanting to let me spend my money on the things I wanted, or let me order things through the mail with their credit card (and it's not like I was buying crap left and right, I would save up my money and want to order something maybe once or twice a year). Anyways, a couple times I was able to go to the store and get a money order, then order what I wanted with that. The main trick was then to intercept the package when it arrived XD

AryllWind i'm going to send you a private e-mail that will hopefully be everything you are looking for... look out for it ok ^_^

Looks like you've got the right idea from you've said. I'll add one more thing: don't do anything that will upset your parents as you will need their support to see you through until you're independent. Try and keep your Japanese studies as covert as possible. As you see, there are plenty of resources on the internet for you to go on with, so wait until you're out of the house to get books. One thing that I would be concerned about is if they found out you were still learning Japanese and tried controlling you by making threats about your studies.

Mind you, it surprises me that you can get unsupervised access to the internet, given what your folks are like. As a parent myself, I would not recommend a child do something in secret. Honesty and openness in a family are important values. However, given their attitude, I don't see any other way for you to do something that's not only perfectly normal but in fact to be encouraged. My father (who knew six languages himself) did everything in his power to assist me learning Japanese. If you were sneaking out getting drunk, then their attitude would be reasonable. But trying to stop kids doing something decent is lunacy, and only encourages kids to go behind their parents' back.

Oh well, just hang in there. Even if it's not so easy now, remember that as you get older you'll get more freedom whether they like it or not.

I am really curious what your parents reasonings are. Not that you should tell me--I'm just nosy.
As a father myself, I can't understand why your father wouldn't want you to learn. My guess is he would rather you be doing something that is _more_ productive in his eyes (Spanish--or French?).
If my daughter is sneaking around behind my back to study foreign language as a teenager, I will feel like I succeeded as a father.
Anyway, good luck with your studies.