Has anybody reached fluency? If so when do you know that your fluent? How and what methods did you use.
Or basicly just talk about reaching fluency, why do you want to be fluent?


Basicly I started to love Japan 4 years ago its like a passion. I never really tried to learn it untill about 2 months ago after costantly watching kerero gunsou, and then finding AJATT. His method just made me feel like its possible to reach fluency. I'm still a teen so I want to learn to fluency early so I can live in Japan.

I wrote a blog entry exactly on this question, what is fluency. http://www.glowingfaceman.com/2008/04/wh...nyway.html

I'll add my own Japanese-specific experience here... I've been studying Japanese for about a year (limited AJATT method about six months) and I'm far from fluent. However, I've still got a lot to show for it, even though I'm not fluent yet. My Japanese studies have led me to learn about......

* Spaced Repetition Systems
* Unicode fonts
* IMEs (dunno what that stands for but it's what lets you type non-Roman scripts)
* The type of memory that Heisig calls "imaginative memory"
* Podcasts
* Japanese history
* The deep idiomaticity of ALL languages, including English, which many English speakers are unconscious of

Learning Japanese is like the space race, in that, if you're serious about it, you'll gain many "technologies" on the side. Whereas learning Spanish would be like crossing an ocean, learning German is like going to the moon, learning Russian is like going to Mars; learning Japanese is like going to Alpha Centauri.

" If so when do you know that your fluent?"

When you can comfortably express yourself, with language, in any way you want and in any situation you want to. Both in spoken and written form.

Or according to the dictionary:

"When you are able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily" / "When one is able to express oneself readily and effortlessly." Which amounts to the same thing .

On a side-note: Snispilbor, you seem very intelligent in your posts and your blog Rocks. (Yes, with a capital R.)

That was an interesting blog. I like how you mention that fluency is when you can take away the language and just focus on the flow of ideas and concepts. I think that is what will be fluency for me. I imagine I will be watching a TV show or something, and listening to what the people are saying and thinking about what they mean, and then suddenly realize that I am doing it all in Japanese. For me, that will be fluency.

This sometimes happens when I talk to my Japanese friend on Skype, but there is still an overwhelming feeling of the Japanese language there. Like when I don't understand a crucial word and have to interrupt him, or when I just blank out because I am overloaded with Japanese.... so I know I still have work to do.

It's not Japanese, but I became fluent in German by living in Germany for five years. Most of the time, I don't need to think about the language to express my ideas and understand others. But there are always moments where the language kinda... gets in the way. The more I start thinking about noun genders and adjective endings, the more mistakes I make.

But most of the time I've been able to fool Germans into thinking that I'm a native speaker. Attaining fluency is definitely possible and it's a great feeling. So I'm convinced that if you invest the time and energy in Japanese, you'll be every day one step closer to being fluent.

Yeah....but like I think its been a year so far since the AJATT method has been up but still, I haven't really seen any posts on Ajatt about people who've reached fluency. Why was khatzumoto able to do it in a year and yet it's still difficult for some to reach fluency undr a year.

As far as I know Khatzumoto has never said to have become fluent in a year, he claims he has done so in 18 months. One-and-a-half years. Apart from that, the man is crazily dedicated, I have yet to see any other kind of person able to do the same as he claims to have done in their comfortable home environments.

Seriously, I think if anyone [including me] wants to become fluent we have to devote our life to Japanese. I think he said somewhere that its gotta be like trading your native language for Japanese.

Haha, I doubt it has to be that bad. You will already come a long way by just immersing yourself with Japanese as much as possible . Just have a little faith!

<edit> And hey, you are already on the fast-track by starting off with Remembering the Kanji. What will take years for others, you will be able to learn in months! Now, if those others can get fluent as well, why can't you? But faster .

He says on his site somewhere that discussion about language is not laguage at all. So I'm going to need to quit a lot of english forums and just BE Japanese.

I consider myself to be fluent in English... Yet I've never thought of it as 'devoting my life to learning English'. Sure you can argue that Japanese is harder, but I feel like I've already come a long way since starting learning Japanese, almost a year ago.

For English I can't remember how long it took me, and yes English is more readily available in daily life (TV, it's used for commercials a lot, the internet...), but it was several years before I could really use English to say whatever I wanted to say, to understand texts as easily and as natural as it is for Dutch.

Today I'm at the point where I can safely say I'm *more* at ease reading and understanding, and writing, text in English than in Dutch. In speaking, it's still Dutch though, but only because it's harder to create the sounds used in English, for me.

I think it's entirely possible to reach that level with Japanese, without giving up 'everything else' it will take somewhat longer than those 18 months... (Because input and eventually just *using* the language, for whatever purpose, is what makes one fluent) But I'm 100 % sure it's possible...

Quote:I think he said somewhere that its gotta be like trading your native language for Japanese.

I think that in a way that's partly true. Maybe it's more like gaining another 'native' language. (Once you reach a certain level.)

At times I feel a bit lost 'between' Dutch and English... I want to say something one way, in English... and can't say it in Dutch while conveying exactly the same meaning/feelings... I'm lucky; my sister understand English very well, and my parents will get what I'm trying to say most of the time...
But already I'm noticing that, on the rare occasion I'll think something in Japanese, or have a Japanese word that conveys the *exact* meaning I'm trying to explain... there just isn't always a real equivalent available in both Dutch and English...

... But this is also very fascinating... (And could start a new discussion ) because I realised that language, whichever language, is in a way a *translation* of our thoughts... And in putting your thoughts into words, you'll look for the best 'translation' of your thoughts. If you know more than one language, at times you'll see you have to skip the best possibility (in language B) because you have to use language A at that moment...

... Sorry, just the tiniest bit off-topic.

Savara

I've been living in the french part of Canada all my life and learned french at age 6, it's been 10 yrs and still my french sucks. Actually I believe it's because english kids think it's uncool to be and speak french so basicly here in Quebec, english schools that teach french suck because the student's french sucks. I've noticed though that english people have difficulty speaking good french, yet french people especially kids and teens can speak english pretty well. I guess they find it cool to speak english, cause I hear people speaking franglais all the time. Guess there is just more english exposure for the french than there is french exposure for the english. (My point of view)

I'm doubtful of the whole "I became fluent in 18 months" thing. I think people have a tendency to bend the definition of fluency a little.

Going from the definition provided from the dictionary above, I'm not fluent yet, nor would I claim to be. I've been studying for over six years now, and while I have achieved what some would call "operational fluency" (being able to handle everyday situations), still, that's not true fluency, going by the definition above.

When I can do what I do in Japanese what I can do in English, I'll consider myself fluent.

Quote:When I can do what I do in Japanese what I can do in English, I'll consider myself fluent.

Exactly the same things? Or at the same level but maybe with quite a bit of difference?

I can't pretend to know as many English names for herbs and flowers as I know in Dutch... But I know there are more English words I do know concerning medieval times, linguistics and for example psychology than words I know about those subjects in Dutch.

But I very much agree, there is a certain level of being at ease with a language you have to reach, before you're able to honestly say you're 'fluent' - whatever that may be.

... It's not about the word count, though, I'm sure. There are people who know less than the average number of words in their *native* language, but they're still considered to be fluent, aren't they?

It seems like language learners, the people who are at least a bit serious about (mostly the people learning more than one language on top of their native language) usually have a better grasp of grammar in their native language as well. They - in general - tend to know more words than an average person (in their native language). ...

So would the definition of fluency be dependent on how well a person speaks their native language? ...

(Sorry, I just like to think about these things )

I think to b fluent you don't have to have a massive vocab. Look at a 5 year old they can speak their native language almost fluently, they have a small vocab but still they can express themselves and be understood. I want to atleast reach the point of a 5 year old XD. Then become like an adult naturally with input input la la la.

When talking about languages, you achieve fluency when:

1) you can describe activities and subjects step by step.
2) you can describe pros an cons for such steps.

So there are many degrees of fluency.

mentat_kgs Wrote:So there are many degrees of fluency.

Agreed. This is also why the whole discussion about 'when you are fluent or not' strikes me as rather odd.

My previous statement means what it says -- when I can do what I can do in English, I'll consider myself fluent.

I want to be able to do whatever I can do in English, in Japanese. For example, if I can discuss something in English, I want to be able to discuss it with equal fluency in Japanese. If I can read Shakespeare in English, I want to be able to pick up a Japanese translation and read that too.

It's a tough goal, but that's what I'm aiming for.

Having said that though, it's tough to nail down a set definition. I think what most people would think if you told them "I'm fluent" would be that you could do most whatever a native speaker could (read, write, speak, etc.), although at an understandably slightly lower level. That is to say, it would be expected that you may have an accent of some sort, or make little grammar errors that, although not a barrier to communication, would not be typical of native speakers. (e.g. in English, subject-verb agreement or article related errors)

ajishiosean Wrote:My previous statement means what it says -- when I can do what I can do in English, I'll consider myself fluent.

I want to be able to do whatever I can do in English, in Japanese. For example, if I can discuss something in English, I want to be able to discuss it with equal fluency in Japanese. If I can read Shakespeare in English, I want to be able to pick up a Japanese translation and read that too.

It's a tough goal, but that's what I'm aiming for.

By this definition, were you "fluent" when you were 10 years old? You couldn't do then even close to what you can do now, but wouldn't you still consider a 10 year old or even an 8 year old a fluent native speaker?

howdycowdy Wrote:By this definition, were you "fluent" when you were 10 years old? You couldn't do then even close to what you can do now, but wouldn't you still consider a 10 year old or even an 8 year old a fluent native speaker?

I'd consider them to be a fluent 10 year old.

So if I was comparable to a 10 year old I'd have to say "I'm fluent... but can only hold a conversation that a native 10 year old could".

When I speak Japanese.. I feel that I do it pretty "fluently", but my vocabulary restricts the subjects that I can speak "fluently" about.

I still believe I'm a decent way from "native adult level fluency"... which I think is what we are all striving for.

Quote:By this definition, were you "fluent" when you were 10 years old? You couldn't do then even close to what you can do now, but wouldn't you still consider a 10 year old or even an 8 year old a fluent native speaker?

I think you might be over thinking it a bit. Let's try this one more time: When I can do in Japanese what I can do in English, I'll consider myself fluent.

There are no past tense verbs in there. It just simply means that I want to be able to do in Japanese what I can do in English. I'm not even applying this to anyone else -- that's MY goal.

And as Christoph pointed out, yes, a ten year old would be considered fluent.

I think that after reaching fluency you'll just il will be easier to get better. Btw Cristoph can you speak perfect Japanese like a 10 year old? Because by the time hey reach 10 their speaking is like perfect.
Just want to make a quick comment about AJATT, I think that people are trying to become fluent way too fast after seeing AJATT. You gotta slow it doown.

Its kinda subjective, right?
I mean, you can be fluent in the language, but not in the culture. (For example, what do people in Japan do during Obon and why?).

In the end, your personal definition of fluency should be enough. You wanna read manga? Ok, when you can do that, then your fluent.

You wanna go work at a Bio Tech company in Japan? Ok when you can do that , your fluent.

I mean, that is why there are standerized test, like the JLPT, to try to create a standard.

But I know people that passed JLPT1 after only one year of study, but cant speak well. And I know great speakers who wound never pass JLPT1.

The Interagency Language Roundtable (Foreign Service Institute) has a helpful scale for talking about these things:

Elementary proficiency (S-1)
Limited Working proficiency (S-2)
Professional Working proficiency (S-3)
Full Professional proficiency (S-4)
Native or Bilingual proficiency (S-5)

Descriptions at the link; for one example, the two-year ALTs I knew usually left at no more than S-2, able to live & work at a limited level. Doing (limited) interpretation waits until S-4.

There are other scales, but this one is pretty no-nonsense, especially compared to JLPT, which measures neither speaking nor interacting. I agree with zazen666 that your personal definition should be enough-- figure out a way to live in the language and be happy, rather than always competing with others-- but if you want to work professionally, the ILR/FSI illustrates what you should look for.

ajishiosean Wrote:I'm doubtful of the whole "I became fluent in 18 months" thing. I think people have a tendency to bend the definition of fluency a little.

I don't think he ever said he became fluent in 18 months. He said people couldn't believe he had never lived in Japan and that he'd only been studying for 18 months. He said that he conducted job interviews in Japanese and landed a job.

I just went to check, and the only time the word 'fluent' appears on his intro page is where he says he believed he -could- become fluent before he started, not that he was at 18 months.

Personally, I feel that if you can conduct daily life and people don't need to treat you special in the conversations, you're fluent. I'm not yet fluent in any language but my native one, and I've a long way to go.