Hi everyone! I'm on frame #1930 right now and expect to finish RTK1 on Tuesday. I'm a bit confused about where to go after that.
I know hiragana and katakana passively, having learned them through rote memorization (unfortunately I didn't know about the Heisig method when I started), but I'll remedy that by using my copy of Remembering the Kana as soon as I finish RTK. I know very little grammar (some particles like の、は、が、に、へ、か) and some basic verb conjugation (-masu, -masen, plain, -nai). I also know some very basic vocabulary that I picked up while watching anime and listening to J-music. So, I suppose this means I know almost no grammar and vocabulary.
I like dingomick's suggestions from http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=476&page=1.
The resources I have are: RTK2, Genki (vol. 1 textbook and workbook; vol. 2 textbook only; I also don't have the answer key), a book called Dictionary of Japanese Particles and the 3 volumes of the Japanese Pimsleur. I'm also considering getting the book "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar".
Oh, and I'm not a big fan of AJATT, so I'm not considering that as a viable option at the moment.
The problem is: this is a lot of stuff and I don't know how I should go about it. I'm thinking of starting Pimsleur right away, but it takes 3 months if I do it one lesson a day as the method says. What else could I do during that time? I've been dedicating a big portion of my day to Japanese study and I want to do something productive besides the half-hour Pimsleur lesson and the RevTK reviews.
Considering that I'm doing self-study and I don't live in Japan, what should I do? Should I do Genki and RTK2 and read Tae Kim's Grammar site and use a Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar all at the same time (this frightens me just by writing it)? Or should I put some order to that? And if so, what order? Any suggestions, comments or advice are really appreciated.
Oh, and sorry for the long post.
Edit: AJATT

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com
hi come seee how khatzumoto became fluent in 18 months.

I'd definitely recommend pimsleur if you have some sort of commuting to do. You don't *have* to finish in 90 days, just go at your own pace. It's easy to set aside a half hour a day for me, since I drive so much. Not sure if you have some time where you normally exercise or whatever. I like Pimsleur because I can fit it in during my *non*-studying time and it becomes study time. So, think of Pims as a bonus if your schedule permits it. As far as the rest of your study materials, it may not be a bad idea to blow through some of Genki, maybe do some sentence mining.. Conventional wisdom here seems to be that it's a good idea to at least be familiar with the JLPT 3 and 4 materials, after which point the study possibilities are endless. I myself am just doing RTK1 right now, which I'll finish in early July, god willing. I'm doing a small amount of Pimsleur as well. After that, I'm going to start back up with Japanese for Busy People (I'm on chapter 20 already) and attempt to prepare for JLPT 4. I'd also like to start 2001.Kanji.Odyssey to further my kanji study.

I see so many people here recommend pimsleur, but its like $900 for all the lessons! Is it really worth that?

Anyways if you have genki, I would recommend doing that, and put sentences from it in an SRS to learn. You will pick up a lot of vocabulary from that. I wouldn't worry about studying RTK2, you will learn readings for a lot of kanji through genki.

I always recommend the Assimil Japanese course "Japanese With Ease" combined with an SRS like Anki. It has Japanese sentences with their English translation and grammar notes as you go along. You can get the version with the audio CDs and have audio of the whole course. It's similar to the sentence method but with structure, just add each lesson to Anki each day as you go along.

Zarxrax Wrote:I see so many people here recommend pimsleur, but its like $900 for all the lessons! Is it really worth that?

No, I do not think it is. The courses are a nice way of getting familiarized with the basic structure of a Japanese sentence and a nice way of picking up some standard vocabulary as well. However, you will quickly outgrow these courses.

I am also quite sure that almost everyone has either borrowed it from their local libraries respectively, or has downloaded the Pimsleur courses from the web.

I skipped Pimsleur, so I have no idea what's in it. There's another option-- if you're near a college or university that offers Japanese, you can often audit those courses for like $20 a semester. You still have to buy a book, and it's not ideal in terms of pedagogy, but you get access to a real native speaker, and a bunch of willing practice partners who just so happen to be working on the same material as you are!

And if you've already done RTK, you can blow people's minds.

Personally, I'd never shell out $900 for CDs of set phrases. You can find comparable stuff on the internet in the form of podcasts, web radio, audiobooks, videos, etc. I know I saw a torrent for the old Yan-san series somewhere, because I think I have it on my hard drive somewhere. That's cheesy as all hell, but it's full of good Japanese. (And fun old '80s music.)

I'd rather spend the $900 on things like reference books, and also on stuff like manga, games, books, and DVDs for variety.

And if you need audio for Genki, you can find it here:
http://www.ncsu.edu/project/japaneseonline/JpOnline.htm

rich_f Wrote:And if you need audio for Genki, you can find it here:
http://www.ncsu.edu/project/japaneseonline/JpOnline.htm

Did you study any at ncsu? I took some Japanese classes there a few years back. I was surprised to see that old link again :p

See if you have Pimsleur in your local library. That's how I started Japanese. I checked it out, and started doing one lesson a day. After the first month, I was hooked!

I heartily recommend it.

Unfortunately, I can't say much about the 2nd and 3rd set.

It's also not worth spending the insane amount of money that it costs.

It depends mainly on your goals. My goals are more to _understand_ Japanese (rather than to _produce_ Japanese). So the skills I work on the most are listening and reading.
Listening: I also got pimsleur free from the library and imported the cds to my ipod. then I just listen as I work out or commute. Like Shibo said, it's a bonus.
After my half our of pimsleur, if I have more commute or workout or cleaning house time, I listen to Japanesepod101. (again it's bonus. So My main study time is devoted to increasing my reading ability)
Reading: If reading is a goal I would suggest not throwing out AJaTT completely. I'm not a _pure_ follower so to speak but I do take bits and pieces. For example, I add sentences from my textbook (I use CLAIR but I would do the same if I used Genki). I add sentences of grammar points that I am struggling with. After adding those sentences into an SRS, they really get ingrained.
I also add sentences from Kanji Odyssey to build on the kanji I learned in RTK1.
The other things I do is games on my DS. These are more for fun rather than for study. I am planning on adding manga or real Japanese reading when I finish my current textbook. Hope this helps!

Yeah I wouldn't shell out $900 for Pimsleur but if you have access to it at a library, it's a great resource. And yeah, most people either borrow it or torrent it.

Thank you all for your replies.
I already have the materials I mentioned on the first post. Sorry if I didn't make it clear before. So I already have Pimsleur available (don't worry, I didn't buy it) . That wasn't really an option in this case, it's too expensive and I would have to pay even more to import it, 'cause I live in Brazil and some material that's widely available in the States is hard to come across here.

Shibo Wrote:I'd definitely recommend pimsleur if you have some sort of commuting to do. You don't *have* to finish in 90 days, just go at your own pace. It's easy to set aside a half hour a day for me, since I drive so much. Not sure if you have some time where you normally exercise or whatever.

I agree and like this idea, the problem is that although I have about an hour of commuting to do every day, I don't have a digital audio player nor the money to buy one at the moment. I guess I'll have to listen to Pimsleur on my computer, which means half an hour of concentrated study. About going at your own pace, do you mean faster (more than one lesson a day) or slower (skipping days if necessary)?

rich_f Wrote:There's another option-- if you're near a college or university that offers Japanese, you can often audit those courses for like $20 a semester.

Unfortunately, my university doesn't have it, nor does any of the other ones here in my town.

laner36 Wrote:It depends mainly on your goals.

Sorry, I should have stated it in the previous post. I'm a native Portuguese speaker, an English student (right now, I'm studying to get my English Certifications, I'll be doing the Cambridge FCE this June and the Michigan test next year). I love the English language and I also love the Japanese language. By now, I think I can say I'm fluent in English. I'm able to speak, write, listen and read. That's where I want my Japanese to be someday.

laner36 Wrote:Reading: If reading is a goal I would suggest not throwing out AJaTT completely. I'm not a _pure_ follower so to speak but I do take bits and pieces. For example, I add sentences from my textbook (I use CLAIR but I would do the same if I used Genki). I add sentences of grammar points that I am struggling with. After adding those sentences into an SRS, they really get ingrained.

I'm not gonna give up on AJATT before I've tried it. That would be a silly mistake on my part. However, I don't think that spending a lot of time mining sentences is gonna be productive for a person that knows so little Japanese like me. I think that sentence mining probably works great with books like "Japanese With Ease", which was suggested by cracky, and "2001 Kanji Odyssey" like you said. But I don't have a way to acquire those books right now, so I think I'll have to put that off for some time. I do intend to put the sentences from Genki for review in Anki though.
I also have a few new questions: does anybody think that drilling just pure vocabulary is a good idea? By this I mean using a vocabulary deck just with words (like those sample vocabulary decks for Anki). And do you guys write your sentences/words when reviewing in the SRS or do you just answer them mentally/orally?
Thanks again for everyone that's contributing, you have been of great help.

"Having a good vocabulary does not mean you can use that vocabulary properly. Using the words in the wrong context will look silly."

MS Word Thesaurus

"have a superior terminology do not connote you preserve exploit that glossary suitably. via the lexis during the erroneous milieu will gaze inane."

Ok, I doubt it'd be that bad consider how well you've mastered English. I think that the ability to find quality pre-mined sentences will improve over the year.

However, I think if you did BOTH sentences and vocabulary, you should be good. If you only did vocabulary, your proper word use will eventually go astray.

@Zarx-- No, actually I took 6 semesters at UNC, but we used the NCSU site for Genki audio. Why reinvent the wheel, I guess. I gotta say, doing the first 2 semesters over summer school was... uh... busy. I was on a fellowship in grad school, and they were willing to pay for summer school, so I was willing to use the money...

@Jonathan-- use the internet to its fullest to mine sentences. If you can't get your hands on a good dictionary with sentences in it, here's a link to excite.co.jp-- they have the Kenkyusha dictionaries with some sample sentences in them.
http://www.excite.co.jp/
The sentences are Japanese with English translations.

Use the sentences in the particle dictionary whenever Genki covers a particle to reinforce it. The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is worth the money. Lots of good stuff in there, too. Again, when Genki goes over something, you can go to the grammar dictionary for extra examples, too. Genki does a good job of explaining the basics, but it's not a great source for mining sentences. It's just... awkward.

I don't know anything about drilling pure vocabulary, so I can't say. I've been drilling sentences for a few months, and I've gotten used to it. Sentences are great for getting grammar points across, and if you can add in a new vocab word with each one, it's even better. Two birds with one stone.

You may be interested in this: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...5#pid19415

Nukemarine Wrote:However, I think if you did BOTH sentences and vocabulary, you should be good. If you only did vocabulary, your proper word use will eventually go astray.

You are probably right. I will do both then.

rich_f Wrote:Use the sentences in the particle dictionary whenever Genki covers a particle to reinforce it. The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is worth the money. Lots of good stuff in there, too. Again, when Genki goes over something, you can go to the grammar dictionary for extra examples, too. Genki does a good job of explaining the basics, but it's not a great source for mining sentences. It's just... awkward.

Great idea! That's seems to be a very good, all-inclusive approach. I'll try to get the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar soon.

wrightak Wrote:You may be interested in this: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...5#pid19415

Wow, that's a really different approach. I find it pretty interesting, but I don't think it's a good method for someone who is just finishing RTK1 now. I think I have to learn a lot more vocabulary than one word per kanji, so other methods are probably better suited for me at the moment. Also, I don't want to drill all those 2042 kanji again from the beginning, at least not now.

I just wanted to say a big thank you to all that contributed to this thread. I've already gone through RTKana, I've been doing Pimsleur and reading Tae Kim's Guide. I hope to start with Genki soon. Thanks a lot for you suggestions. It was indeed some very helpful advice.
どうもありがとうございます。

I suggest diving straight into mixi. Get rikaichan if you need, and start surfing the site. If you need sentences, go join some groups, and start with those 'introduction" threads. People tend to say the same thing over and over again so it's good practice. Make sure what you learn serves a purpose. You'll be good at what you do the most. So if you want to be able to talk and write the way Japanese people write, use mixi. Dive in early, and see what real Japanese the way it is used is actually used.

[Admin : sorry for deleting the post, please don't post links to torrent sites and/or downloads of copyrighted materials in the RevTK forums, thanks.]

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:I suggest diving straight into mixi. Get rikaichan if you need, and start surfing the site. If you need sentences, go join some groups, and start with those 'introduction" threads. People tend to say the same thing over and over again so it's good practice. Make sure what you learn serves a purpose. You'll be good at what you do the most. So if you want to be able to talk and write the way Japanese people write, use mixi. Dive in early, and see what real Japanese the way it is used is actually used.

Aren't they insisting on a valid Japanese keitai e-mail address to register? I've had nothing but hassle with this.

Well, I signed up with my hotmail address. That was about a month ago. Maybe it's because most people don't specify that there are from abroad. Give it a try and let me know what happens. I'm curious as to why I keep on hearing people having this problem.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:Well, I signed up with my hotmail address. That was about a month ago. Maybe it's because most people don't specify that there are from abroad. Give it a try and let me know what happens. I'm curious as to why I keep on hearing people having this problem.

Really? Hmm. I'd give it a go, only the invite I had expired. That was an invite to a non- .jp address as well - you could be right.

Well, if mixi is not just for people in Japan I would surely like to join! I don't plan to use it as a primary learning resource, but it could be a really useful supplement to my studies. If anybody is kind enough to send me an invite, I would be really grateful.

Just to note, specifying 海外 does not seem to get rid of the requirement for a 携帯電話 address. If we could verify that certain email services let you get around it, then we could make some progress with this whole mixi situation... For me, a gmail.com account requires a jp cellphone email address.

http://yesjapan.com

Is a good online "course" that would be good at your stage. Though it starts from the top in terms of grammar and such, you can set the site to display in Romaji, Kana, or Kana+Kanji from the get-go. Since you'll already know the Kanji's meanings after RTK1, set it to K+K and get additional Kanji practice, plus you'll have to start learning their readings.

The site is a monthly subscription but you can go at your own pace. There are lots of audio clips to help hear pronunciation and aid comprehension.

Also, anyone who uses Firefox who has not added Denshi Jisho http://www.jisho.org/ to their search bar needs to do it NOW.