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RTK and CORE2k overrated?

#1
Hey guys,

I realize this thread title sound like blasphemy.


However this just reflects my learning experience after more than 2 years and I would like to hear your take on it.
To sum up my experience:

RTK:
I completed RTK. While it has some obvious benefits - it demystified Kanji for me, and they no longer look like random symbols to me - I also have to say that at this point I doubt the benefit of keeping reviewing Kanji and their meanings for a long time once completed.
"Learn 2000 Kanji" in 3 months, come on really? If I look back at it, this seems like a good marketing line at best. Yes you can go through RTK in that time frame, but have you really "learned" all these Kanji?

At some point it just occurred  to me that, at the end of the day, who cares what you recognize, what can you actually read?
And yes I realize that this would be the purpose of RTK2 or example sentences.

And while RTK2 is little more than a Kanji-only-dictionary, the example sentence bring me to the second point:


CORE2k/ Nayr's CORE etc
While I really appreciate the work of the people who put this together - am I really the only one who arrived at a burn-out when trying to add 20 sentences every day?
Do most of you really find these out-of-context sentences that helpful, did they in fact help you that much to retain vocabulary? (Especially if you look at how much time you need to invest to complete your sentences daily.)
Or are there some of you who at some point realized it felt more like a chore than actual useful and effective study time?


I really don't intend to sound negative here, and if this helped you then of course, good on you.
I am just wondering if others felt like me at some point or another, I just can't understand anymore why this study method is so widely recommended to beginners.


Isn't it much more effective to spend your study time on vocabulary and grammar that you are actually interested in?

For example I am attempting to read children stories for 1st and 2nd graders right now. There's some Kanji, but also lots of hiragana with spaces in between, which makes it easier to read and to not get overwhelmed with a high amount of too advanced Kanji. As I follow the story, I enter all unknown vocabulary into Anki to review it later. Because this gives me context, and because I am able to read and understand more of the story when I go back to it, this seems much more efficient to me. I am also able to study for a longer time, because I stay interested.

Same goes for material from Jpod101, I enter unknown vocab into Anki, review it, listen again and understand more.

I am just wondering if I am an exception here, and most people indeed had a lot of success with a combination of RTK reviews (with meanings) and ANKI Core decks.

If some of you felt the same as me at some point in their japanese studies, I'd really like to hear from you.

Thanks!
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#2
I never did core2k but it seems really boring. Anyways it's up to you to figure out what works for you and sticking to it. Ajatt worked well for me but I modified it. Anyways it's been like 9 years and My Japanese is very good and plenty of people got good without core2k.


I loved r2k... how else am I going to learn how to write crap with large stroke numbers. Let me tell you that brute force memorization does not work. The usual hit yourself over the head with brute force method is a colossal waste of time . As far as I could tell that's the point of rtk.
Edited: 2017-04-30, 11:43 pm
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#3
Yea, it helped a lot. Neither one of those is supposed to be a standalone Japanese course.

For example, you see 大切 in CORE, it's "important" but I also sort of log "たいせつ” in my brain as
"big/cut=たいせつ=important" . It's not something I actively think about, but I just sort of make a mental note when I learn new words. A harder example would be "Mechanism/dislike= きげん=mood". It doesn't make sense, but I just sort of log it as I go in my head. It helps me recognize the word, write the word, and pick out the kanji so I'm fine with storing useless keywords in my head.



I'm reading Harry Potter now and a lot of online articles. I think that's a lot better for re-enforcing kanji than a kids book. Kids books honestly are harder for me because they use too many onamonapia, and cutesy words. Kanji is like a reading aid, since it helps constantly remind me what words mean.

Not sure what else I can say, everyone is different, but these tools do work for most people when paired with native media.
Also, as a side note, why Core2K? I didn't even know it went that low. You should use "Core 10K optimized for RTK". Why would anyone want a deck that runs out of cards in a few months?


Find something that interests you and just read about it with Yomichan+Chrome (Firefox is broken afaik). It's like rikaichan/kun/sama except that it automatically generates flashcards for words you look up. I really like architecture and home renovation so I read blogs and company websites to mine vocabulary. For me that makes it way more fun than reading about politics or something.
Edited: 2017-04-30, 11:50 pm
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#4
(2017-04-30, 11:25 pm)maxwell777 Wrote: I completed RTK. While it has some obvious benefits - it demystified Kanji for me, and they no longer look like random symbols to me - I also have to say that at this point I doubt the benefit of keeping reviewing Kanji and their meanings for a long time once completed.
"Learn 2000 Kanji" in 3 months, come on really? If I look back at it, this seems like a good marketing line at best. Yes you can go through RTK in that time frame, but have you really "learned" all these Kanji?

At some point it just occurred  to me that, at the end of the day, who cares what you recognize, what can you actually read?
RTK did for you exactly what RTK is supposed to do then. In order to read the kanji, you do have to be able to recognize them and tell one apart from the other. RTK just breaks one part of what you need to read away from the rest of the language to make it easier to memorize.

Quote:CORE2k/ Nayr's CORE etc
While I really appreciate the work of the people who put this together - am I really the only one who arrived at a burn-out when trying to add 20 sentences every day?
Do most of you really find these out-of-context sentences that helpful, did they in fact help you that much to retain vocabulary? (Especially if you look at how much time you need to invest to complete your sentences daily.)
Or are there some of you who at some point realized it felt more like a chore than actual useful and effective study time?
Well, this is the other part of learning to read, starting to actually put readings to those kanji that you just spent 3 months learning to write and recognize.


Quote:I am just wondering if others felt like me at some point or another, I just can't understand anymore why this study method is so widely recommended to beginners.
You've got to learn these words at some point, they are after all, the most common words in the language and they are going to show up sooner rather than later, and over and over again.



Quote:Isn't it much more effective to spend your study time on vocabulary and grammar that you are actually interested in?

For example I am attempting to read children stories for 1st and 2nd graders right now. There's some Kanji, but also lots of hiragana with spaces in between, which makes it easier to read and to not get overwhelmed with a high amount of too advanced Kanji. As I follow the story, I enter all unknown vocabulary into Anki to review it later.

It's absolutely not more efficient to be making your own cards for unknown words as you encounter them vs. learning the most common 200 words. It's almost certainly more efficient to make your own cards by the time you're looking at the 9853rd most common word.

At what point is learning from a frequency list less efficient...? I feel like that's around 2k-3k. I don't have any links but there are studies on this kind of thing, ie., tables of what percentage of works will contain words across the frequency list. (You can honestly look at any such study for any language for a general idea, it's largely a language independent phenomenon, but of course Japanese specific studies will conveniently include a table of Japanese words in frequency order).

Optimal efficiency hardly matters here though, unless your the sort of person who cares about that more than how engaging your material is. For most people I think keeping motivation up is more important, and for some people, the time and effort of creating custom cards is annoying. For other people, studying words that are different from what's in the story they're currently trying to read is annoying.

I do think starting with some kind of core/frequency deck or a deck aligned with your textbook (which is another kind of 'common words' deck) is a good idea. Whether you study the 10k or 20k most common words or only the 1k most common words from a premade deck is really up to you. It is diminishing returns, so make the cut away from premade where you like. (I stopped using premade, eh... maybe after completing 3k or maybe somewhere between 2k and 3k, I don't really remember.)

Personally, I like creating my own cards, and consider my time reading dictionary entries and picking out an example sentence to be perfectly valid studying time, but other people just don't like to 'waste time' with it. Which is a fair enough point of view, they could have studied a dozen new premade cards in the time I created one.

There is also a compromise method - take a big premade deck, and suspend everything. As you encounter words in your reading, unsuspend them so you can start studying them. No time 'wasted' creating cards and not time 'wasted' with learning vocabulary that is not what you're reading right now.
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#5
TL; DR at the end.
I only looked through RTK and did a recognition deck of it to learn to 'see' kanji; I had tried learning vocabulary before that, but I had trouble telling the difference between even vaguely similar kanji (which was pretty much all of them), I'm fairly sure I did nothing but lazy RTK between that and blasting through Core, so it made a huge difference for me.

As for 'learning 2200 kanji in three months', you're certainly learning to write them if you're using RTK to learn to write kanji. You learn to 'see' them if you're just using it for that. I don't remember anyone ever claiming that you're learning everything about the kanji in that time frame (not that no one has claimed that, but I don't remember that claim in my years on this site and others)...
I didn't study the readings at all, I just picked them up from learning vocabulary.

For Core, or any premade Anki deck, the point is that it saves you the pain of reading when you know pretty much nothing by giving you a list of words you'll see everywhere. It's a primer: you won't learn to read well by doing Core, but you'll take out a huge chunk of the pain that comes when you first start reading by having a whole bunch of vocabulary already available.
Imagine if you were to try learning a language without doing any kind of grammar primer first. It doesn't matter which beginner textbook you use, you're not going to get all of the nuance until you start using the language, but doing that grammar study beforehand makes it a lot easier to read later, and you didn't have to invest that much time into it.

I did Core10k Optimized. I don't find Anki reviews of things I've added myself any less boring; the fun part is actually reading. Doing Core made learning to read easier for me (I think I started reading NHK Easy and similar easy Japanese before finishing 2k, not that I really enjoyed it, but it was closer to what I wanted than stuff written for five year olds or textbook skits), as I imagine it does for most people.

You mention sentences. Frankly, I think reviewing sentences is too boring for anything other than grammar. All of my cards are vocab and example sentence -> meaning and reading; the vocab word is in a larger font in a standout color, and the sentence is lower down (ends up at the bottom of my phone screen in landscape). Sentences are useful for getting an idea of what the word means beyond the provided definition/translation, but reviewing with them takes far longer than just reviewing the word. I review vocab like so:
look at word -> do I know it (yes ->move on; no -> do I know it with the sentence (yes -> hit hard or again; no -> give it a good look over and hit again)).
That way, I'm only spending any sort of time on words that I don't know well. I usually finish my Core reviews (which are only about 25~30 per day now) in a minute. I average about six seconds per card on my new deck, but the numbers are currently so small (usually have less than 10 reviews per day, since I'm not focusing on that at the moment) that that's probably not accurate.


As for learning from things I'm 'interested' in... I think I'm pretty easily amused, considering I enjoy manga, games, LNs, etc. which are intended for children (not young children, usually, but children nonetheless); yet I didn't have the patience to read a single word of a manga and have to stop and look up another word (often with jisho.org's radical search, because I hadn't learnt tons of kanji readings, and I didn't always have furigana, or it wasn't really visible), but I had the patience for Core.

I don't want anything getting in the way of my fun time; reading is for fun, Anki is for study, the only time those things should cross is if I'm using Rikaisama (and probably Yomichan, eventually) to quickly add new vocab words to my deck.
If someone has the patience for that kind of tedious task, then all the power to them, but I certainly did not. I read NHK Easy for reading study, not reading fun (I don't like reading the news), and I didn't enjoy it, but that was the most interesting thing available at my level. Anki is study that's not terribly boring to me (certainly not fun, but it's relatively quick and painless), and it's something I do every day. Reading (or watching things) is something I do when I have free time and want to enjoy myself. If I had to read something to get all the words I have in Anki right now, I'd probably have quit (or be way less proficient than I am now, not that I'm that proficient anyway) because it'd require me to read too much stuff that I have no interest in.




I think I've hammered it home enough, but one more time, for anyone that skipped over the rest of this:
I found Core less boring and tedious than working my way through stories I wanted to read with almost no comprehension. Lazy RTK helped me recognize individual kanji well enough to study vocabulary with ease.
Edited: 2017-05-01, 12:54 am
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#6
(2017-04-30, 11:25 pm)maxwell777 Wrote: CORE2k/ Nayr's CORE etc
While I really appreciate the work of the people who put this together - am I really the only one who arrived at a burn-out when trying to add 20 sentences every day?
Do most of you really find these out-of-context sentences that helpful, did they in fact help you that much to retain vocabulary? (Especially if you look at how much time you need to invest to complete your sentences daily.)
Or are there some of you who at some point realized it felt more like a chore than actual useful and effective study time?


I really don't intend to sound negative here, and if this helped you then of course, good on you.
I am just wondering if others felt like me at some point or another, I just can't understand anymore why this study method is so widely recommended to beginners.
I did the entire Core6k, I felt it did wonders for my comprehension, but then I was also in Japan when I did that. It gets recommended though because its a premade pack with 6k words and fairly easy to digest words. If you work 8-9 hours a day, you probably don't have the time or don't want to spend the time adding sentences. Are the sentences bland? Sure, but then open up a newspaper, most of that stuff is bland too.

If it doesn't work for you, find something that does, but the core decks work for some of us that have no problem putting their nose to the grindstone when its not "fun and exciting," as long as we see results after a few months.
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#7
"RTK and Core2k overrated?"

Yes. But you can still put them to good use, and they're better than legitimately old language resources.

>Isn't it much more effective to spend your study time on vocabulary and grammar that you are actually interested in?

The basics are always the basics, whether they're interesting or not, basically. Everything in Core2k is basic vocabulary, though for sure it's missing a bunch of important basic words that are probably more important than a couple that it includes.
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#8
Thank you everyone for sharing your experience and taking time to post.

It seems like most of you are in favor of going through core decks anyway, which is good to know, albeit I was for some reason assuming that more people would feel like me.

I might give a core deck another try at some point, while at the same time working with reading simple material + immersion.
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#9
I burned out precisely becouse of vanilla rtk and especially core.

I did rtk1 in four months but to continue reviewing from keyword to kanji was frustrating.

To this ad the boredom of the core deck... even if I was supposed to know the kanji I was struggling with them in the context of core words and sentences.

but more than everything what made me burn out was that I found extremely hard to learn both the reading and the meaning of words at the same time.

After the burnout I gave another try, and I followed advices from CureDolly and other usera here.

The first time I took everything as a dogma. You know, ajatt, jalup, most users here, they learned that way so it HAS TO BE the only effective way.

The second time I did this:
1) recognition deck: kanji on front. I tought that recognition was too passive but in the end it worked even better. when I moved to words I was already accustomed to recognize the kanji. no more "I am supposed to know this kanji from rtk but I don't recognize it".

2) learn at least the most common onyomi. kanji on front but not only. it is followed by a compound word with the kanji, like:



電話<わ>

my answer was something like "electricity, DEN of DENwa"

now that I already know the kanji and word, I say directly DEN of DENwa.

This literally saved my life.

when I began to learn words like:

電気 or 電流

it was a piece of cake to learn not only their meaning, but their pronounciation too.

This is what worked for me, no matter what other says, if a method didn't work the first time then try another method.
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#10
I think I'll give core 6k a shot if the deck is already done and I don't have any more work to do, the problem I think people have with the core deck comes from their expectations and how they approach reviewing. People think that they should keep reviewing cards until they learnt the words forever, in my opinion that is the wrong approach as new words can never really be truly learnt this way, flashcards for me are only to familiarize yourself with the words, after some time you have just to ditch them, the learning that will make them stick forever will only come with time and naturally.
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#11
That's literally the opposite of the point of SRS. If you want to familiarize yourself with new vocabulary go for it and find a drilling program, but anki is positively not designed with that in mind. Anki is designed with reviewing old information you already know in mind.
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#12
(2017-05-12, 8:46 am)wareya Wrote: That's literally the opposite of the point of SRS. If you want to familiarize yourself with new vocabulary go for it and find a drilling program, but anki is positively not designed with that in mind. Anki is designed with reviewing old information you already know in mind.

How else are you going to "learn" something that's just a factoid of information? 

I add cards to Anki after encountering them in the wild and looking them up initially. I guess that's "studying", but it's studying in the most cursory, drive-by-shooting sense of the word. 

I've fooled around with other methods of "pre-studying" words before adding them to Anki - e.g., maintaining vocab lists and adding the words to Anki after a few rounds of drilling. Ultimately, I didn't find any method any more effective than adding them to Anki and studying them as they came up as new cards.
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#13
I think the thing about pre-made deck is exacly that: when you study them as a list with little to no exposition to those words before. This is why I burned out. When I finished rtk I started to drill like 20-30 new words a day from core2k.

Now that I've read a good amount of books and articles, and now that I've watched a lot of japanese media, it's easy to "learn" words inside Anki. It's not true learning because you already know the word, you're only refreshing/reviewing them.

Because of this I suggest to maxwell777 to do a lot of extensive reading because words stick better when you encounter them many time in their natural context. At that point when you go to Anki it's just a fact of reviewing them.
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#14
What I meant is that when you truly learn a word, you should never, ever need to review it again, you'll never forget it, as you can never forget a word you know in your native language, you may not be able to recall it for some reason, but if you read it or hear it out loud, you'll understand it instantly. Can you forget what "car" means, what "mother" means, what "airplane" means, what "schizophrenia" means? Difficulty of the word doesn't matter, when you've truly learned it, it's yours forever, that is what ultimate learning really means, and I truly believe that you can never achieve that with anki activity, or any sort of artificial activity whatsoever.

This kind of "forever" learning can only be achieved naturally and cannot be forced artificially, however I've had the experience of it happening in a classroom setting as opposed to self-study, that is one of the benefits of classroom study in my opinion, the experiences you experience there, which are much more lively and tangible than studying alone, somehow make you more prone to learn words this way, but of course, not in a very high volume without a great deal of time.

I take me for an example, it's been about 13 years since I last studied English, and I never ever forgot a single word, much to the contrary, I keep learning them, also, even before that I never did flashcard work for English, I learned them by other means(first classroom study then LOTS of videogame and forum engagement).

The point is, do I think that flashcards are useless? No, I think they have their place if you want to learn a language in a reasonable time frame, especially one as Japanese, but don't go thinking the words will be yours forever by doing normal flashcards or SRS, they won't, even if you do that for 10 years straight, That's my opinion.

What do I think flashcards are good for then? To allow you to progress with the language, because the word, at least a part of it, will be yours temporarily, that will allow you to engage with the language which will, someday, bear the fruits of you truly learning it.
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#15
(2017-05-12, 2:06 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: ...

Well... If you definition of learning a word is that you will never forget it, then it is to be expected - that in your personal 13 years example, you never forgot a word.

Because when you forget a word, it is just a proof you did not learn it in the first place.
Edited: 2017-05-12, 2:20 pm
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#16
I don't know if learning vocabulary at this level is possible without learning the language as well though, I think that at some point with regular usage the language just sinks in and the vocabulary gets imprinted for good, so the the way to really memorize is usage coupled with time, not SRS, SRS is good to enable you to work with the language though, as I said. These are my experiences with language so far.
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#17
People forget words in their native language all the time. That doesn't mean they haven't "learned" the word. Whether something is learned or not is an arbitrary dichotomy, and it's up to the learner or whoever's testing them to determine where the line is drawn.
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#18
(2017-05-12, 8:46 am)wareya Wrote: That's literally the opposite of the point of SRS. If you want to familiarize yourself with new vocabulary go for it and find a drilling program, but anki is positively not designed with that in mind. Anki is designed with reviewing old information you already know in mind.

I'm guessing that the maker of Anki would dispute that. (or at least seek clarification on what you mean by "already know in your mind").

Anki is just an implementation of SRS. And SRS is a modern version of the flashcard system. All these things (Anki, SRS, flashcard, spaced repetition in general) aim to take information from short term memory (which is 30 seconds or less), and help commit information into long term memory (longer than 30 seconds) in a more efficient manner than just linear repetition.

That doesn't make it a good idea to just drill unknown vocab with SRS and hope to magically be able to start speaking a new language after a while, but I also don't see the point of drilling vocab you already committed to long term memory through some other method. At that point, why not just use the language, instead, to help maintain these memories?

Instead, what you want to do is figure out what components of a natural language do you really need to have memorized, in order to be able to speak it and understand it. And the answer to that isn't words. You can learn all the words you want, and still not understand spoken Japanese. The answer is collocations. And there are two ways to SRS collocations: as individual collocations (in some order of frequency), or in the context of full sentences. I'm partial to sentences (for reasons that are way too elaborate to get into in an unrelated thread).

As for how to use SRS to review sentences, it's a two step process:
1. Make sure you understand the sentence, and the meaning of every word in it. In other words, make sure the sentence is in your short term memory (you could close your eyes and repeat it...or at least an approximation of it). To achieve this, you might need to use a dictionary, or look up some relevant grammar points, and you might need to spend some time with the sentence, to make sure you understand the role of each word and particle.
2. Start reviewing. If you find yourself having to repeat step 1 often, while reviewing, that probably means the materials you're reviewing are too advanced for your level, and you should look for easier sentences.
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#19
(2017-05-12, 5:36 pm)wareya Wrote: People forget words in their native language all the time. That doesn't mean they haven't "learned" the word. Whether something is learned or not is an arbitrary dichotomy, and it's up to the learner or whoever's testing them to determine where the line is drawn.

While I agree that native speakers may lose the ability to recall and use words, I think it's highly doubtful that they won't be able to recognize them when heard or read, I think that is only likely to happen for words relating to things which the person doesn't know/understand.

But there's deffinitely a state in language learning where you've learned the words "forever" and no kind of reviewing is needed anymore, people who have attained a higher level at a foreign language should be able to attest to that.
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#20
Tree structure of knowledge.
RTK and Core work to get the basics down. Germane. So mainstream though. How bout just going to Japan and praying words enter your brain.
Edited: 2017-05-15, 3:08 am
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#21
(2017-05-12, 5:57 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: I'm guessing that the maker of Anki would dispute that.

[Image: E2V6tK3.png]
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#22
(2017-05-13, 7:49 am)wareya Wrote:
(2017-05-12, 5:57 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: I'm guessing that the maker of Anki would dispute that.

[Image: E2V6tK3.png]
Oh, okay, so the maker of Anki does dispute that.
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#23
"If you want to familiarize yourself with new vocabulary [...] anki is positively not designed with that in mind" <- anki is not designed to familiarize you with things you don't know

"Don't memorize without understanding [...] avoid large lists of words" <- anki's manual telling you to avoid using anki to familiarize yourself with things you don't know

That screenshot doesn't say anything about avoiding anki for things you already understand.
Edited: 2017-05-13, 12:18 pm
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#24
To review things is objectively useful, we do this all the time in school when we review our notes.
I see SRS nothing more than as a more efficient review system.

But I understand luri_ and Stansfield123 viewpoint, in fact even in Japanese, when a word truly "clicks", it's very hard to forget it.
It's like Idol's names lol why in the hell I know all of them without even trying to learn them? xD

I've seen that a critical aspect which determines how well I'll remember a particular word, beside simple repetition (seeing/hearing it many times), is the effort that I make when I try to learn it when I encounter it.

If, while reading, I simply gloss through the word, after a couple of seconds I will have forgot what I've just read. Especially with kanji being such a huge clue with meaning, even if I pronounce mentally the word, my brain links the meaning to the kanji.

If I do what Stansfield123 suggested, not only inside Anki, but in general; if I spend a little time to deliberately try to absorb and understand what I'm reading, I don't even need to put it inside Anki. I'll remember it without any fail.

The fact is that while one reads, it's easy to go fast and to aim for the bigger picture and to fail to focus on words/sentences/collocations.

While inside Anki, you're more inclined to focus on actual language before you put them into repetition. The moment you put a card inside Anki you spend the time to read the sentence, to repeat it without looking at it, to make yourself sure you understand every part of it.

And this obviously works very well when you have already had a lot of exposure to the language because you're trying to interiorize what you already sort of know. You're doing only the extra step.

This is why I liked the cloze format, it forces you to understand the word, and its usage inside a sentence. It forces you to recall it, and I've found this really helpful in making something "click".
Edited: 2017-05-13, 12:47 pm
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#25
(2017-05-13, 12:45 pm)cophnia61 Wrote: If I do what Stansfield123 suggested, not only inside Anki, but in general; if I spend a little time to deliberately try to absorb and understand what I'm reading, I don't even need to put it inside Anki. I'll remember it without any fail.

That seems like an exaggeration. I doubt you can remember tens of thousands of pieces of information (whether it's sentences, collocations, words, or Kanji) without fail, just because you spent a little time with each, and "understood" them, once. But you can remember 20-100 sentences, until the first time they come up in Anki (the next day, with default settings).

Also, being able to remember something by digging for it in your brain isn't good enough, in language learning (or most other areas, really). You shouldn't say you know something, if you can't actually use it the way it's meant to be used. You don't KNOW a collocation, if you can't pick it up when it's spoken at natural speed, for instance.

Whether it's for listening comprehension (being able to understand collocations and grammar patterns at natural speed) or reading (recognizing collocations or words at a glance), you need repetition to continuously reinforce and strengthen your memory of the information you are learning. And Anki is one way to get that, especially before you are advanced enough to get that repetition by delving into native resources.
Edited: 2017-05-13, 2:32 pm
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