As a bit of a background, I'm moderately proficient in Japanese, grammar and vocab-wise at least. I can read-recognize several hundred kanji, but I can only write about 100.

I have been given(and have been using for about two weeks now) a book(not the Henshall mnemonic book, this one is better for learning, IMO) that includes:

-Radical based mnemonics(not quite as story like as RTK, but these go for the whole book)The kanji that I can write, I can write by radical, and not just by rote stroke random memorization.
-On and kun readings
-Compounds(at least one or two for each reading, a bit better than RTK2 it seems here)
-It actually shows the radicals, unlike RTK which just names/identifies them

I have been doing about 6 kanji a day now, memorizing a couple useful vocabulary with each one, as well as both readings(using Anki, I like the software, I might continue with it if I decide to switch to RTK, I might also use this website, I'll decide when I get there)

Doing some research, I have found that people doing RTK are doing upwards of 20 kanji a day, a rate that I would be quite pleased to attain.

In the long run, would it be best if I did RTK1 now?(any ideas on how long it would take? I'm a fast learner, and I already have somewhat of a base) Perhaps continuing on with my original book later, assimilating the readings as well as the compounds(not sure what I'd do with the mnemonics, they continue for all the kanji in that book, but I like some of the RTK ones better... they also don't correspond in order at all). One advantage I can think of is that when I do learn vocab, I'll actually be able to write and know the meaning of all the kanji(using kana for half of a word is really bothering me).

Perhaps I should stick with the original book? It would probably take almost two years. I think learning would be fastest when trying to learn only one thing at a time(alas, words heard from my piano teacher every week).

I do like RTK, I'm just a little leery of starting it when I already like this book(but RTK will probably make the experience a whole lot easier when I do end up learning vocab/readings)

How much time do you have? That's really the only thing that dictates how long it takes to finish RTK. The more time you have, the faster you can plow through it. Some people can do it in a month, some take a year, and the rest fall in-between. I found it faster than other methods, because there's less data to memorize per kanji. Division of labor FTW.

The reason I chose to do RTK was because once I got all of the kanji "alphabet" forms down and finished RTK1, I could learn as many or as few readings a day for as many kanji as I wanted to. I wouldn't be held back by my (lack of) understanding of the actual forms of the kanji, either. Having keywords as memory hooks also helps a lot, just in helping to fix readings in my brain.

You might want to download the 125-page sample PDF, try it, and see if you like it.

A month? That's ridiculously fast. But I'm pretty much free until the fall semester starts in September. I've been reading about this one guy who became fluent and completely literate in less than two years, so I'm kinda discouraged.

To help you understand how quick you can learn to write kanji with this method, consider this: If all I do when I look at a new kanji is find a story that seems like it will work, then read over that story one time while looking at the kanji... then the very next day I can remember how to write about about half of those kanji. That's about 50% retention from just reading a story and seeing a kanji ONE TIME. If I review about 3 times when I learn it, I will have a retention rate of more like 90+% the next day.
Of course, it does usually take me about an hour to find stories I like for about 20 kanji.

I think 6 a day is very very few. Maybe do that at first until you get the hang of things, but you should really ramp it up.

Since I'm on vacation atm I'm currently doing about 120 a day, including doing reviews and keeping the failed stack low etc.

Now, what should I do about the readings?

From reading that alljapaneseallthetime blog, it says that I should just dive getting 10000　example sentences, and soaking up the readings from that. Is this a productive method?

playadom Wrote:Now, what should I do about the readings?

From reading that alljapaneseallthetime blog, it says that I should just dive getting 10000　example sentences, and soaking up the readings from that. Is this a productive method?

Don't get too hung up on the sentence method or an arbitrary number of sentences to Japanese language proficiency. The main reason he uses sentences is to put everything in context. The strength of his approach isn't just sentences, it's a 24/7 immersion environment. The sentences are only one part of that.

If you look over the message board here, there's a (huge) thread on his method under the topic The AJATT Method. I'm not sure if he was already immersing before he did RTK, but I know he was trying to afterwards.

His basic approach is language immersion + Krashen's approach to language acquisition (input before output) + Spaced Repetition Systems to keep everything remembered. It's an interesting approach.

I'm primarily using sentences from Kanji Odyssey for learning readings, without obsessing over learning on/kum yomi specifically. It's too early to tell how effective it is. It seems to work pretty well, but the only way to find out for sure is probably a bit longer down the line.

Other people go to RTK2 and study the on-yomi with Heisig's method. It's a tempting way to go, because if you're willing to put in the effort, you can nail on-yomi recognition. (That is, looking at a sentence, and being able to read it aloud.) But I'm not sure how well it fares for production (having to write a word and know which "ken" kanji you need.)

As for RTK1 (not 2), you can finish it in a month, yes, it is physically possible, but it's the exception, not the rule. To do it, you have to pretty much eatsleepdrinkbreathe kanji for a month.

3 months is more realistic.

With any of these approaches, you get out exactly what you put in, and every day you take off will hurt you. They all are based on momentum.

It took me a year of steady, turtle-style progress to work through RTK I. One month is possible, but could get pretty stressful.

playadom Wrote:I have been given(and have been using for about two weeks now) a book(not the Henshall mnemonic book, this one is better for learning, IMO) that includes:

-Radical based mnemonics(not quite as story like as RTK, but these go for the whole book)The kanji that I can write, I can write by radical, and not just by rote stroke random memorization.
-On and kun readings
-Compounds(at least one or two for each reading, a bit better than RTK2 it seems here)
-It actually shows the radicals, unlike RTK which just names/identifies them

What you have to remember here is that the things you have highlighted above are the things even those studying RTK eventually want to be able to understand. Knowing a single english meaning for 2000 kanji is, in itself, useless. The whole point of RTK is to better prepare a person for what is then the second stage - learning the readings for them.

Now, the way you are studying is already learning the parts of the Kanji which are necessary. What you have to decide is, "if I knew a single english keyword for these Kanji, would it save me more time learning than the time I need to invest in RTK?". 6 a day isn't particularly fast, but I would say its quite reasonable. Being able to read Japanese that well within two years would be very impressive. Remember, the whole point of learning Kanji is to be able to read Japanese - so over this period you *also* need to invest the time learning the Japanese language itself! This means you can study Kanji suitable to your level of Japanese, and not waste time learning things which are far too advanced.

Therefore, I suggest you ask yourself two questions:

1) Would I save more time when studying readings later, than the amount of time it takes to finish RTK itself?
2) Would I still enjoy my language study as much as I do now, being unable to learn new readings/words because of hoping to finish RTK first? Would I even enjoy studying RTK?

If you answer yes to both those questions, then it probably makes good sense for you to attempt the Heisig method.

Seeing that I already have quite a bit of the language under my belt, I wouldn't really mind not learning new vocab for 3 months or so while I do RTK. I then think that learning the readings might be a little easier. I still believe that I should learn the readings by learning compounds(and I find that when looking at the Heisig book, I think something along the lines of "ahh this kanji means *verb*, so the reading must be *reading*)

Would it save time doing the Heisig book before going back to my original book(sort of like a Japanese lubricant, if you will)?

playadom Wrote:Seeing that I already have quite a bit of the language under my belt, I wouldn't really mind not learning new vocab for 3 months or so while I do RTK. I then think that learning the readings might be a little easier. I still believe that I should learn the readings by learning compounds(and I find that when looking at the Heisig book, I think something along the lines of "ahh this kanji means *verb*, so the reading must be *reading*)

Yes, learning multiple readings is more important. Of course, just knowing that 京　or 供 or 興　(etc) can be read as きょう is not that much use either, you need to get familiar with the words they appear in in order to be able to read at any decent pace.

If you are comfortable putting RTK to the forefront of your study, then I think it could definitely reap its rewards later down the line.

Quote:Would it save time doing the Heisig book before going back to my original book(sort of like a Japanese lubricant, if you will)?

Yes, in essence this should be the whole point of RTK (trying to claim you can read anything after RTK is at best misled, and at worst an outright lie)

It sounds like you have already made up your mind, so more power to you

Good luck with it.

NightSky Wrote:(trying to claim you can read anything after RTK is at best misled, and at worst an outright lie)

I mostly agree to this, except if you are like me and you knew a decent amount of Japanese beforehand, adding RTK and nothing else to your repertoire will immensely increase your ability to read, and to learn from what you are reading.

[Katsuo]

NightSky Wrote:trying to claim you can read anything after RTK is at best misled, and at worst an outright lie

"RTK"? I presume you mean RTK1. For anyone not familiar with the RTK books, here is a brief summary:

RTK1: Learn how to write 2,042 kanji and learn an English keyword for each of them.
RTK2: Learn readings and vocabulary for the kanji in RTK1.
RTK3: For advanced students, another 965 kanji (keywords, readings, vocabulary).

RTK1 & RTK2 are companion volumes. The latter is designed to be studied immediately on completing RTK1. Heisig considers this to be more efficient (i.e. quicker) than studying them simultaneously. But you are meant to do both of them!

So after completing RTK (i.e. RTK1 & RTK2) you will be able to read many Japanese words.

danieldesu Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:(trying to claim you can read anything after RTK is at best misled, and at worst an outright lie)

I mostly agree to this, except if you are like me and you knew a decent amount of Japanese beforehand, adding RTK and nothing else to your repertoire will immensely increase your ability to read, and to learn from what you are reading.

I guess I can agree, although I'm not sure it would immensely improve your reading. After all, you still can't read it, you are just in a slightly better position to guess a meaning (if you can't pick it up from the context of whatever your reading).

Reading a lot of furigana based material after RTK1 is probably a good idea.

Katsuo, yes above I was specifically referring to RTK1. I have huge doubts that the RTK2 method can possibly work any faster than just reading stuff, and its not something that I've ever tried to complete.

So you're saying that I shouldn't do RTK2, and should just learn by compounds and sentences? Or by a structured program?

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess I was thinking either RTK helps immensely with understanding what's written or understanding and reading furigana stuff.

My opinion is that after I did RTK 1, I was in a much better position to use REAL Japanese to learn, so I had no desire to go back and do a much less fun method with RTK 2.