Back

Sanseido down

#1
I'm wondering if anyone has any information about what is happening with the Sanseido dictionary.

The Sanseido function in Rikaisama is no longer working which is not surprising as the sanseido.net site itself is down. This used to happen occasionally sometimes for minutes, sometimes for an hour or so, but it has been down for around a week now.

Does anyone know anything about this and whether it is likely to be back?

The Sanseido function in combination with the real time function was wonderful for making J-J Anki cards with a single keypress (I've written a few articles to help people with the process), and it will be a very sad loss if it is really gone.

We were really lucky to have such a wonderful tool and rather than complain one should be thankful. But I wondered if anyone knew anything about it.

If it isn't coming back might there be an alternative. The Epwing function should work, but I've never really worked out where one might find an Epwing dictionary.

I have tried, but I'm not the brightest doll in the toybox
Reply
#2
(2017-04-20, 1:36 pm)CureDolly Wrote: The Epwing function should work, but I've never really worked out where one might find an Epwing dictionary.
I didn't know either until I asked a few months ago. Somebody mentioned a certain EPWING onedrive shared folder and now I know where to find them (i.e. google those two terms).
Reply
#3
I hope someone has an answer, Sanseido was one of my favorite web dictionaries Sad I so hope it's not dead.
Edited: 2017-04-20, 3:46 pm
Reply
May 15 - 26: Pretty Big Deal: Get 31% OFF Premium & Premium PLUS! CLICK HERE
JapanesePod101
#4
I hope it isn't dead too. Apart from the Rikaisama functionality I liked the simple, concise definitions Sanseido usually provides. Sometimes they are a bit inadequate but when one wants a brief no-frills definition that focuses on the main usage (I prefer not to have half a page on the back of a card unless it is really necessary) Sanseido was usually the place to go.

I think I have found the place for Epwing and 小学館国語大辞典 looks like a promising title. Also, being at shougaku level it might have a conciseness similar to Sanseido.

The problem is it comes in six parts, all .rar'ed. Un raring them shouldn't be a problem but then what do you actually do with the six parts?

Sorry to be so dopey(⁎❝᷀ົ ˙̫ ❝᷀ົ⁎)

PS - actually the 国語大辞典 seems only to be in two parts, but I still don't know what to do with them.
Edited: 2017-04-20, 4:32 pm
Reply
#5
rar files that come in parts usually combine to make one file(or a folder of files, etc.) If you have a utility to unrar, simply opening any of the rar files should combine them all. It's just a way around file size limitations for newsgroups and such.
Edited: 2017-04-20, 4:16 pm
Reply
#6
(2017-04-20, 4:14 pm)yogert909 Wrote: If you have a utility to unrar, simply opening any of the rar files should combine them all. 

Using 7zip I specifically had to unpack the first one and it would just piece all the stuff together. I didn't realize that at first and kind of tried to unpack the other parts on their own as well, but that just resulted in errors. And well then I realized that it's enough to unpack the first one and if you have all the other parts in the same folder as well it'll work out. (It didn't work when I tried to unpack one in the middle, but maybe other programs manage to figure that out, so that's only for 7zip)
Edited: 2017-04-20, 4:25 pm
Reply
#7
Here is where I am so far.

I downloaded the two parts of the 小学館国語大辞典

Unzipped part 1 with 7zip which created a folder entitled 小学館 国語大辞典 - ie no "part1" as in the title of the original file which makes me think it has sucessfully combined the two.

Went to the EPwing tab of the Rikaisama options dialog and did add dictionary

Navigated to the new folder and opened it. The only file Rikaisama recognizes in the folder system is one called CATALOGS, so I added that, apparently successfully.

However when I try to use Rikaisama with the EPwing function, I only get the message "Please add an EPwing dictionary in the EPwing tab of the options dialog".

Does anyone know what I should be doing that I apparently amn't?
Reply
#8
(2017-04-20, 5:36 pm)CureDolly Wrote: Here is where I am so far.

I downloaded the two parts of the 小学館国語大辞典

Unzipped part 1 with 7zip which created a folder entitled 小学館 国語大辞典 - ie no "part1" as in the title of the original file which makes me think it has sucessfully combined the two.

Went to the EPwing tab of the Rikaisama options dialog and did add dictionary

Navigated to the new folder and opened it. The only file Rikaisama recognizes in the folder system is one called CATALOGS, so I added that, apparently successfully.

However when I try to use Rikaisama with the EPwing function, I only get the message "Please add an EPwing dictionary in the EPwing tab of the options dialog".

Does anyone know what I should be doing that I apparently amn't?

No idea, but I have the same problem with another dictionary. Since rikaisama's days are apparently numbered (a few more months until the death-kneel firefox update I believe) I think I might try the yomichan plugin.

Edit: Hmmm. That .... kind of worked, but only for a very specific list of dictionaries, and also it won't look up 食べる from 食べて ... I don't think it's doing any reverse-conjugation. I had been under the impression that it did. Well.

Anyway, if you're just looking for 大辞林 results and not worried about integration, the dictionary is included in the results from dic.yahoo.co.jp
(goo seems to only give 大辞泉 lately while yahoo gives both. That's subject to change over time as licensing agreements change, though. Both sites have switched around how many and which dictionaries they search a few times.)
Edited: 2017-04-20, 8:43 pm
Reply
#9
Omg  I feel the same pain because generating anki cards is so effortless with rikaisama and excel ( the cloze deletion format is just amazing for me). I save SO MUCH TIME. Most recently I had to make cards with English definitions only since the sanseido site is dead. Sometimes the English definition is more useful for me so it's not so terrible  but I just like having the option to choose between Japanese or English or choose to include both.
Edited: 2017-04-20, 10:34 pm
Reply
#10
Yes I use Goo and Yahoo regularly. I rather miss the conciseness of Sanseido as well as the Anki integration so I am fiddling with Yomichan right now (for カhe latter reason).

So far I actually have it working with 三省堂大辞林, which is, of course Sanseido but not their rather cut down Web version, which has its own advantages.

One thing I immediately noticed on experimenting with it is that it has a quirk (if it is a quirk) similar to what I have found on the inbuilt J-J dictionary on Kindle (I am not sure if you have to have your system in Japanese to get it. My system is in Japanese and it kicked in automatically without even giving me the option of J-E. Very useful as it is essentially Rikaichan for kindle books but...

The quirk in question is that it often tends to give more obscure readings of words in preference to the regular ones.

The same thing (on a very brief test run) seems to apply to Yomichan with 三省堂大辞林. For example I tried it out on 人間 and got the reading and definition for じんかん first rather than the much more common にんげん.

It is actually less of an annoyance in Yomichan than on Kindle because on Kindle you actually have to leave your book and go into the dictionary proper to find other definitions. On Yomichan it was just a matter of scrolling the results window.

@howtwosavealif3 I am thinking that with a EPwing dictionary plumbed into Yomichan and the Anki plugin you should be able to send J-J definitions to Anki - I haven't tried it yet though.

Unfortunate aspects so far, other than the obscure definitions are - the non-deconjugating problem and the fact that you can't switch from j-j to j-e on the fly. I try to avoid j-e so I am not too troubled by that, but it is definitely a lack.

On the plus side, while it is a mild pain to have to use the shift key to scan, the advantage - if anyone uses Rikai as much for writing as for reading as I do - is that it isn't constantly causing problems with input.

I find Rikai or equivalent priceless for writing - it's a wonderful proofreading tool. But if you have it on it is continually throwing up definitions when you don't want them and swallowing bits of your text (because it really wasn't built with that usage in mind). The dead-man brake approach on Yomichan should make writing/proofreading much easier.

(PS yes I know it's no big deal to toggle off Rikai in the address bar but somehow it never works out well for this bukiyou na ningyou).
Reply
#11
Further report:

Not sure how you get a concise definition into Anki. There is no "Definition" item, the one called "Dictionary" does nothing and the one called "Glossary" throws about a page of stuff onto the back of your card.

三省堂大辞林 is quite good but throws up bits of English at random for no apparent reason - like this

三省堂 スーパー大辞林
かん-どう [0] 【感動】 (名)スル
美しいものやすばらしいことに接して強い印象を受け,心を奪われること。「深い―を覚える」「名画に―する」「―的な場面」
三省堂 スーパー大辞林
かんどう【感動】
impression;→英和
emotion.→英和

Why does it always have to be English for heaven's sake? What's wrong with Hungarian or Thai or some other language I don't understand?

Ahem. Some of this may be my  not knowing how to use it properly yet.

So is it useful for Anki? Definitely. Not least because if you don't want this great "Glossary" monster on the back of your card you only have to copy a sentence or two of sensible definition from near the top of the box and paste it into Anki.

Not quite so automatic, but I usually tweak my cards anyway (adding TTS for the definitions). But even if I didn't it's much easier to have the card set up for you and paste the amount of J-J definition you want from the box that popped up, rather than going to another online dictionary for the definition (which is what I've been doing since Sanseido went down).

One more annoyance for me is that you are only allowed to have one piece of information per field. For my own silly reasons I always put the word's audio in the meaning field along with the meaning (that meant it played before any other audio I added). So I am going to have to make a new card type to accommodate Yomichan.

As a complete aside, while playing around with it I found this definition of 思い出す

過去のことや,忘れていたことを心の中に思い浮かべる。

Isn't that just elegant? Simple words like that are often the hardest to define and that definition is just a little work of art!

By the way, it seems not to be correct about not de-conjugating. For example I got that definition of 思い出す by hovering on 思い出します and 入れた quite happily brought up a definition for 入れる.

So that's good!
Edited: 2017-04-21, 12:40 am
Reply
#12
You can still access the dictionary at http://www.sanseido.biz/
Reply
#13
Thank you kanjidude-san. That's really good news.

That little online Sanseido dictionary is really the place to go for concise definitions - though it is necessary to bear in mind that they are sometimes over-concise and a bit incomplete.

By the way my complaints about ikinari use of English in the big Sanseido may have seemed a bit carpy as I gave a poor example. Here is a better one I just came across in my actual reading:

無常

三省堂 スーパー大辞林
むじょう【無常】
mutability;uncertainty.→英和
〜の mutable;→英和
uncertain.→英和
三省堂 スーパー大辞林
む-じょう ―ジヤウ [0] 【無常】 (名・形動)[文]ナリ
(1)〔仏〕 万物は生滅流転し,永遠に変わらないものは一つもないということ。
⇔常住
「諸行―」
(2)人の世の変わりやすいこと。命のはかないこと。また,そのさま。「―な世の中」
(3)人間の死。「―の来る事は,水火の攻むるよりも速に逃れがたきものを/徒然 59」

For some reason the eiwa bits are right at the head of the definition. I am sure there are dreadfully learned lexicographical reasons for it but to me it just seems pretty random and very unnecessary.

Here by contrast is the dictionary from the online Sanseido dictionary which kanjidude-san so kindly re-supplied

〈名・ダ〉 (1) 〔仏〕 万物は変転して定まりないこと. (対)常住 (2) 人生の変わりやすくはかないこと.

Just the meat of the definition, no fluff (or English). And I like the way they give antonyms. In many cases (not particularly this one) the antonym can be worth the whole definition in terms of quick review. Oh yes of course, it's the opposite of 何々.
Reply
#14
(2017-04-21, 12:37 am)CureDolly Wrote: One more annoyance for me is that you are only allowed to have one piece of information per field. For my own silly reasons I always put the word's audio in the meaning field along with the meaning (that meant it played before any other audio I added). So I am going to have to make a new card type to accommodate Yomichan.
This isn't obvious from the UI, and I didn't realise for ages either, but you can put more than one thing in a Yomichan field.
Reply
#15
(2017-04-21, 12:37 am)CureDolly Wrote: Further report:

Not sure how you get a concise definition into Anki. There is no "Definition" item, the one called "Dictionary" does nothing and the one called "Glossary" throws about a page of stuff onto the back of your card.

三省堂大辞林 is quite good but throws up bits of English at random for no apparent reason - like this

三省堂 スーパー大辞林
かん-どう [0] 【感動】 (名)スル
美しいものやすばらしいことに接して強い印象を受け,心を奪われること。「深い―を覚える」「名画に―する」「―的な場面」
三省堂 スーパー大辞林
かんどう【感動】
impression;→英和
emotion.→英和
Very often at the end of the english section they give good examples of usage mostly not covered in the J-J part. You can ingnore all English and still use what they offer e.g. compound examples or typical combinations with verbs. So I think it can be very useful.

Well in the end it is easy to delete the last 4 lines when you are tweaking with your cards anyway. Means even if you don't want to use the examples from the English entry it is not really a problem.

BTW: 人間 shows up for me in this order にんげん, then ひとま and the last is じんかん.

And here is what I was referring to (not a showcase, but a random example you selected):
〜業(わざ)でない superhuman.→英和
〜ドックにはいる enter[go into](<米>the) hospital for a medical checkup.‖人間関係 human relations.人間ぎらい misanthropy (性質);a misanthropist (人).人間工学 ergonomics;human engineering;biotechnology.人間国宝 a living national treasure.人間性 human nature;humanity.
Reply
#16
@HelenFさん Thank you so much for that. I was about to say "But when you select something from the dropdown it eliminates what was there before" - but you can just type カhe token in, right? Thank you for saving me from having to make a fresh card template. I am terribly bukiyou with Anki's back end and I was quite worried I would mess it all up again!

@Matthiasさん in the example I gave (which was pretty random as I'd only been testing for a very short time) it was the first three lines of the definition that were in English. But I agree it isn't really a big deal. Unless you a) want your definitions in all-Japanese and b) want to hit the send to Anki button on a "fire and forget" basis.

Personally I am a) but not b) since I do usually tweak my cards a little. I like to cut definitions down to something pithy, Which I TTS and I don't even mind leaving the rest of the definition there (not the Englsh part usually) for reference, since I mostly do Anki by ear (after the kanji on the front).

I hope I didn't seem over-complainy. I was just reporting on my subjective pros and cons after an early test.

In case I was too "con" - I think that's a danger when switching from a system that you know and love - I want to say that Yomichan is very good-looking and slick. It does (I hate to say this) make Rikaisama feel a bit outdated.

I especially like the stability of the results box. You can scroll it, copy from it and generally use it as a little workspace unlike the Rikai box which disappears when you move the mouse unless you use that clunky sticky mode. It's a pity you can't get nested definitions. I mean such that you could Yomichan inside the Yomichan box which would allow you to do "branching" (getting Japanese definitions of the words used in Japanese definitions) on the fly. That is probably asking a bit much technically. You can't do that with Rikaisama either - at least I never could.

I'm not a big fan of heavy branching anyway - I think it's a distraction from immersion, and with 三省堂大辞林 you would probably encounter enough English along the way that the branching process would be broken at an early stage. This is the basis of my objection.

However I realize that the Sanseido dictionaries were not compiled primarily for English-speaking learners and that's one reason I like them. So we take the rough with the smooth!

Yomichan as a whole is very smooth.

I'd llike to add that I am certainly not insensible to the fact that we are all unbelievably lucky to have such tools at our disposal that a generation ago would have been inconceivable.

As a writer and editor of a large Japanese blog I have to give critical assessments of things, which can perhaps come across as sounding like one of those people who takes everything they have for granted and just goes on complaining about whatever they don't have. But really that isn't my state of mind at all. I never cease to be grateful to all the dear people who make such wonderful things available to us, as well as to all of you who share your valuable information so generously.

You are all awesome!

(I don't think I've ever said "awesome" before in that senseʕ•ᴥ•ʔ)
Reply
#17
(2017-04-21, 10:41 am)CureDolly Wrote: @Matthiasさん in the example I gave (which was pretty random as I'd only been testing for a very short time) it was the first three lines of the definition that were in English.
三省堂 スーパー大辞林
かん-どう [0] 【感動】 (名)スル
美しいものやすばらしいことに接して強い印象を受け,心を奪われること。「深い―を覚える」「名画に―する」「―的な場面」
三省堂 スーパー大辞林
かんどう【感動】
impression;→英和
emotion.→英和

Why does it always have to be English for heaven's sake? ...

---------
Well, it sounded quite complainy, so I wanted to show out a very helpful Japanese "pro" on the English section, which you can use even if you hate English. And which you had probably overlooked (hatred makes blind).
Reply
#18
Popping into this thread since Yomichan came up (I'm the author of this extension) and it looks like there are several good usability points here. I have a bit of a favor to ask: can you guys create issues for things that bother you / are non-intuitive about using it on the Yomichan GitHub page? It can be difficult to keep track of all the issues / requests / suggestions and as the creator of Yomichan I am also completely blind to any usability issues (since by definition I am an expert on it).
Reply
#19
@Matthiasさん

Not sure that I hate English exactly.

I do sometimes think 英語なんか大嫌い but that is mostly because it just gets over everything like spilled oilʕ•ᴥ•ʔ I'm afraid that's why you don't see me around here so much these days. No offense to anyone. I still love you all (I really do). Just my Dolly quirks.

I do actually use English definitions occasionally. There are also people who don't and who are absolutely rigorous about branching. That isn't because they hate English but because they feel it is the right method for their learning, and it was really on that basis that I made the comments I did. (mine is a somewhat milder version and perhaps a little less purely pedagogically motivated, I confess - but essentially the same considerations apply)

Sorry it came across as complainy. And as I said, I am fully aware that this was a very subjective criticism and that the dictionary isn't primarily there to serve foreign learners with funny methods! On the other hand reporting on this might be useful for people who want to know whether and to what extent Yomichan plus 三省堂大辞林 suits their particular needs.

@FooSoftさん

I think most of my sense of shortcoming was actually about the dictionary rather than the extension itself, but I'll pop over and add something. It would be good I think to make it clearer that one can have two items in a field. I really wouldn't have known that and would have tinkered with Anki to work around the problem.

And please let me take this opportunity to thank you for your wonderful work. You're the best!
Edited: 2017-04-21, 1:06 pm
Reply
#20
(2017-04-20, 8:19 pm)SomeCallMeChris Wrote:
(2017-04-20, 5:36 pm)CureDolly Wrote: Here is where I am so far.

I downloaded the two parts of the 小学館国語大辞典

Unzipped part 1 with 7zip which created a folder entitled 小学館 国語大辞典 - ie no "part1" as in the title of the original file which makes me think it has sucessfully combined the two.

Went to the EPwing tab of the Rikaisama options dialog and did add dictionary

Navigated to the new folder and opened it. The only file Rikaisama recognizes in the folder system is one called CATALOGS, so I added that, apparently successfully.

However when I try to use Rikaisama with the EPwing function, I only get the message "Please add an EPwing dictionary in the EPwing tab of the options dialog".

Does anyone know what I should be doing that I apparently amn't?

No idea, but I have the same problem with another dictionary. Since rikaisama's days are apparently numbered (a few more months until the death-kneel firefox update I believe) I think I might try the yomichan plugin.

Edit: Hmmm. That .... kind of worked, but only for a very specific list of dictionaries, and also  it won't look up 食べる from 食べて ... I don't think it's doing any reverse-conjugation. I had been under the impression that it did. Well.

Anyway, if you're just looking for 大辞林 results and not worried about integration, the dictionary is included in the results from dic.yahoo.co.jp
(goo seems to only give 大辞泉 lately while yahoo gives both. That's subject to change over time as licensing agreements change, though. Both sites have switched around how many and which dictionaries they search a few times.)

Yup, Rikaisama does not do deinflection for EPWING. Yomichan does:


  [Image: brbColQl.png]
Reply
#21
(2017-04-21, 8:32 pm)FooSoft Wrote: Yup, Rikaisama does not do deinflection for EPWING. Yomichan does:
Hnnnh, it does? When I scan from the first character of 食べる, I get the entry for 食べる, but when I scan from the first entry of 食べて I get the entry for 食(しょく).

Firefox / Window 10 / Kenkyuusha JE 5th ed.

Your picture is what I was expecting, but not what I'm getting.
Edited: 2017-04-21, 9:29 pm
Reply
#22
@FooSoftさん

I am now using Yomichan regularly - and running Rikaisama alongside it. Yomichan is now my primary tool, but I thought you might want to know what I currently use Rikaisama for since these are the things it does that Yomichan doesn't.

1) Rikaisama is useful when I know the reading but not the kanji of a word (eg when I've only heard it) because it gives a list of possibles which is very easily scanned especially with definitions toggled off.

2) Rikaisama gives information on whether a word is usually written in kanji (I don't rely on it heavily as I prefer to go by observed usage, but it is useful extra information to have when I don't know a word)

3) Rikaisama gives frequency information. Even less crucial but useful to have on a few occasions.

4) Using the two in combination allows me to scan within Yomichan's search box. This would be much more useful to me if Rikaisama still supported J-J definitions and I am not sure how many people would want nested scans or how possible they are, but they can be really useful to primarily J-J people. I've always wished they were possible in Rikaisama.

The way Rikaisama worked, it gave the uk (usually kana) flag and word-frequency numbers - even when in Sanseido mode. Not sure where they were pulled from.

If you want me to open issues in GitHub I will happily do so, but since these aren't really issues, just little thoughts/possibilities I felt reluctant to do so.

Do I call them "issues" but put "feature request" in parentheses? And with a group like this should they be four separate posts?'

Most importantly I want to say that as I get used to using Yomichan I am liking it more and more. Will definitely be doing a major article on it on KawaJapa though I'll spend more time with it first.
Edited: 2017-04-21, 9:33 pm
Reply
#23
Bug reports and suggestions are very welcome; the title itself doesn't matter but it seems like people use "feature request" for features so you can do that too if you like. I generally work through through the issues by order of how quickly I can get them resolved. For me, having high code quality is more important than knocking out features so it does take a while to work through some of the major ones (adding EPWING support, for example, was monumental).

As far as your specific points:

1) Having a no-definitions mode would be simple enough if that is helpful.

2) EDICT has the "uk" tag for "usually kana" terms; this information is not present in other dictionaries so it is not displayed. I like to keep the dictionary data separate if possible.

3) Frequency information is something I've been meaning to add but I don't know of any specific lists to use for this. Suggestions are most welcome.
Reply
#24
I checked out yomichan and it doesn't have the one feature of rikaisama that changed my life lol. Yomichan let's you add cards to anki easily (one at a time) while rikaisama formats the card in whatever way you want but you have the extra step of importing. Also I can take the rikaisama txt file and paste it into excel to customize the format more and save a lot of time. Rikaisama has the option to save a card with only the info you want (sentence, sentence with word blanked out, definition, reading) and formatted in the way you specify it too. It saves me more time vs adding one card at a time.

Here's an example thing that I imported while sanseido was alive. If I did not have rikaisama or excel it would have taken forever or at least in comparison
ただ 先生が このお二人を見ても ご自身に ひ___________がえって  その不純さに 自己嫌悪なさったりは しないんでしょうねと <p>〈副〉 〔文〕 考え__________してみると. : 直 / ひるがえって - 翻って

権威付けられたものだけを ありがたがる その<b><font color=MidnightBlue>____っそう</b></font>**のなさが愚民なのだ <p>constancy; integrity;<p>信念を変えずに貫くこと. : せっそう - 節操

先生 離婚<b><font color=MidnightBlue>____ょう_____い</b></font>**の ご相談ですが 離婚? <p>arbitration; conciliation; mediation : ちょうてい - 調停


__________んどうたいの特許訴訟で 君が韓国企業に勝てたのは <p>semiconductor; solid-state <p> 絶縁体と良導体の中間の電気伝導率をもつ物質.シリコン・ゲルマニウムなど : - 半導体
_____告 <p>defendant; the accused : ひこく - 被告
君にしては よくやった 褒めて**つか________す <p> ③ (補動)…してやる. ▼教えて~ *_____________大な言い方 : 尊 遣わす! <p> (「動詞連用形+て」に付いて)
辛辣に当________る <p>㋓人に____________する。人を待遇する。現在では、ひどく扱う場合に用いる。「つらく―・る」「家族に―・る」 : た // 接

If some cards were from a difference source I could add another column for tags
Edited: 2017-04-22, 9:39 am
Reply
#25
(2017-04-21, 11:30 pm)FooSoft Wrote: 3) Frequency information is something I've been meaning to add but I don't know of any specific lists to use for this. Suggestions are most welcome.

Suggesting The Balanced Corpus of Contemporary Written Japanese.  You can download the List here.

Quote:"The Balanced Corpus of Contemporary Written Japanese" (BCCWJ) is a corpus created for the purpose of attempting to grasp the breadth of contemporary written Japanese, containing extensive samples of modern Japanese texts in order to create as uniquely balanced a corpus as possible. The data is comprised of 104.3 million words, covering genres such as general books and magazines, newspapers, business reports, blogs, internet forums, textbooks, and legal documents among others. Random samples of each genre were taken.
Edited: 2017-04-25, 4:33 pm
Reply