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30 days of cloze-deletion

#1
Ok, one month passed from when I started my cloze-deletion deck.
My conclusion is that, while very effective, it's too time consuming. Not the review itself, but the card creation, as more than one of you said in another thread.
Basically there are too many similar words with too many similar sounds, so that even simple hints don't always work.
The addition of images work pretty well but it requires too much time to find them, and basically I was spending too much time editing the cards. Time that I'd better spend with native media.
I said they are very effective, I cannot deny it, but are they effective enough to justify the effort needed?
I started them in order to increase my listening comprehension, with the idea that "if you can produce them, you can recognize them". After this month I feel that I can safely confirm this.
But this doesn't mean that you could not obtain a similar result with easier/less time consuming methods.
So, as my main concern was about listening comprehension, I thought about what was the real issue about my vanilla sentence deck. And, as I already said in the other thread, the issue was the fact that kanji gave away the meaning too easily, so that when I listened to the same word that I was supposed to know, I was unable to recall its meaning.

Example:

奉公

easy to recall the meaning because of the kanji, but what when I listen to ほうこう?

Obviously a card like this:

Quote:その家に住み込んで,召し使われて勤めること。
〔住み込みで使用人として働くこと〕 live-in domestic service;

その男は長い間私のところに ____ していた.

is effective. If, given the definition and a clozed sentence you are able to recall ほうこう, you will be able to recognize it.

But what if the same result could be obtained by a card like this?

Quote:その男は長い間私のところにほうこうしていた.

I've removed the hint given by kanji, so now I must be able to recall the meaning given the pronunciation only.
I'm still not 100% sure but this does seem to work. Maybe it's 10% less effective than cloze-deletion, but it's 90% faster. Cards are done in a couple of clicks (thanks to the tools available out there), and review is fast as the speed of light.

While with cloze-deletion I needed to pause every couple of cards in order to edit them, now I literally gaze through them.
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#2
Im way too early to discuss such topics since I started studying Japanese one month ago but I found this topic very relating to me.
One of my first concerns after deciding to seriously start studying Japanese is how I will remember the word pronunciations?
Kanji can tell a lot of information about the word, I'm afraid that i might be over depending on the Kanji writings and memorise their meaning over their real pronunciations/ furigana.

Therefore I have to give extra effort to memorise their exact pronunciation.. but not only that, every word i learn I have to train my myself to pronounce it outloud within a sentence, and then memorise the whole sentence with the correct pronunciation, because this is how I fixed my English speaking and listening skills.

English isn't my first language and its phonical just like my native language, most of the time I skip reading the words I know since it is hard for me to pronounce it. As I learned English through movie subtitles and Video games ( were speech audio and VA was very scarce ).. 70% of all the vocab I knew was in wrong pronunciation due my poor reading skills and many words that I only have a visual memory of them ( like Equipments, status, Justice* .. ). Like forexample.. I used read justice as Justik .. if I listened to an audio and someone says " .. I want justice!! " I wouldnt know what he meant ..justice isn't a word i know.. I know Justik.

Even though my English level was close to what is it now / my writing and reading comprehension skills were good enough to read novels .. but my speaking and listening was worst than Kindergarten's.... sad thing i never noticed that until I was 2nd year college were I had to use english for my studies.. As much as It was a disaster, I was in shock, since i can write and read English pretty well why it is hard to understand? ... and to speak. I had many frustration wanting to say the word I want.. my brain failed to filter the words i can pronounce and the ones I couldn't, i notice how many students in basic English skills could speak way way way better than me.

There were many ways that helped me to fix my pronunciation ( but because of many frustrations and countless embarrassing situations before realizing what was the issue, my self esteem went so down to the deepest depth of the bottomless sea.. sadly I let it destroy my self confidence .. Sad )

One of ways I found it very helpful is simply to overshadow an audiobook and always whenever I read, I read t out loud.
Also whenever I drive I listening to the radio ( it was really good to understand nothing from it to all of it within months .. but again at that time I was exposed to English all day long and I was forced to communicate thru it )
But in Japanese language, I think i need to recognise the kanji, but it is not as important as the need to dig the hiragana in my brain.. If I want to develop my listening and speaking skills.
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#3
I FEEL YOU. I had the same experience with english. Advanced reading skills but I didn't understand even the easiest of the spoken language because while reading I pronounced them the wrong way inside my head (like the "justice" example you gave).
Fortunately my L1 is very similar to english so it sufficed to just watch a lot of tv series with english subs to link the written form with the spoken one. I've tried the same with the japanese language but it didn't work.
The words I recognized easily were the one I learned phonetically first.
While with Kanji my mind link it this way "PRONUNCIATION <---> KANJI <---> MEANING".
So that my mind is able to recall both pronunciantion and meaning from kanji, but if I want to go directly from pronunciation to meaning there is this layer inbetween.
By reviewing pronunciation to meaning I hope to make a direct connection between the two.
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JapanesePod101
#4
I love cloze deletions. I use this format 99% of the time because it's effective and effortless. Why are you making it so hard for yourself? The whole point of srs is so that when you come across an instance of houkou you remeber the meaning? It doesn't mean you have to tax your brain with difficult anki card formats.

for Quote:その家に住み込んで,召し使われて勤めること。
〔住み込みで使用人として働くこと〕 live-in domestic service;

その男は長い間私のところに ____ していた.

Why don't you put some of the word in the question like
ところにほう _____      していたORRRR
ところに____うこ____    していま
With the hint or English or whatever 

That's what I do. I only cloze out a syllable or part of the word. I never do the whole word because that's taxing and not worth it. This cloze format works better than the traditional format for sure . I don't find this cloze format cards to be time consuming to make since all im doing is reformatting from what rikaisama spits out..... Also there's anki plugins

Also if a card really stumps and you really want to learn it you can generate another cloze delete card with another part of the word blanked out
Edited: 2017-03-11, 10:51 pm
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#5
(2017-03-11, 12:18 pm)cophnia61 Wrote: But what if the same result could be obtained by a card like this?

Quote:その男は長い間私のところにほうこうしていた.

I've removed the hint given by kanji, so now I must be able to recall the meaning given the pronunciation only.
I'm still not 100% sure but this does seem to work. Maybe it's 10% less effective than cloze-deletion, but it's 90% faster. Cards are done in a couple of clicks (thanks to the tools available out there), and review is fast as the speed of light.

While with cloze-deletion I needed to pause every couple of cards in order to edit them, now I literally gaze through them.

FWIW, that's what many of my cards look like. For every new word, I first create a card like your example - a context sentence, keyword in kana highlighted. Later, I have a card with the same example, keyword in  kanji highlighted, typed answer required.

Kana cards are a fail if I don't get the meaning very precisely - it's important to be precise especially because of the context sentence. I also strongly prefer context sentences which are illustrative but don't give away the meaning of the keyword ... not always easy to find. The above example is a good one though. Just from context, ほうこう could mean many things, but only one of those is actually correct.

Kanji cards are a fail if I don't get the typed answer precisely correct (typos excepted... sometimes you double-hit a key or otherwise make a purely physical input error.) My understanding of the meaning is allowed to be a *little* vaguer on kanji cards, but not blatantly wrong. I'm primarily testing reading, the kana card is for meaning... but if it's very far off then it's still a fail (even if that does go against supermemo's 'test-1 thing' rules. Tough luck supermemo, I'm not creating both a 'test meaning' and a 'test reading' card in kanji on top of the kana card....)

Of course, both cards are generated from the same 'note' and the notes are generated (with a tiny bit of editing) from rikai-sama's auto-import feature.

Plus an extra kanji card can be generated if there's a second kanji spelling of the same word. (It's pretty much worth it, I think, to always study the alternate spellings, at least if you intend to read novels. A lot authors seems to be kanji nerds and like to use various spellings to be 'expressive' or something. )
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#6
>The addition of images work pretty well but it requires too much time to find them, and basically I was spending too much time editing the cards

Say no more, fam.
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1255433599

I dunno, making cloze cards feels kind of tedious, so I just do sub2srs listening cards.

I tried to read your explanations here, but it's a bit long.
Are you basically trying to do this:
Front: Sentence with clozed word (or half-word), and eng-translation of clozed word
Back: Sentence revealed (with translation if necessary).

So, it trains you to produce the word in context, and also be able to guess at the sort of word used in context. It's like a production/recognition/guessing exercise.

I currently do listening-only and some reading-only cards with sub2srs, to try and improve my listening and reading in context.
So, I can imagine this cloze thing being really fun to do with a Sub2SRS deck. Probably more fun and easier than doing a straight production card.

I guess you can streamline the process a bit if you keep a window open where you can copy definitions for the word, and paste those into your "hint" field for your cloze cards.
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#7
When I tried cloze deletion a few years ago, I had a similar conclusion with you guys : cloze deletion can be helpful but is quite difficult to streamline, in particular for the card creation process, hints etc...

My opinion is that the top priority is to keep the learning experience smooth and fun. To do that you should avoid headaches to create your cards in a certain way if it takes time too much time or too much mental energy to do. Your mental energy should be used on processing your new cards and reviews (=on your learning) and not on the things around.

Of course experimental things are extremely useful, this is thanks to them that the koohi community (and world) learn and get better tools years after years Wink (and thanks for that). But for beginners whose main focus in to succeed with learning as fast as possible, it is definitely better to focus on their cards processing rather than the creation process. The mental energy is very precious and should be carefully invested in order to keep having fun.
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#8
You're a lot further along than me, so you may have tried what I do but I'll tell you in case it's of any help. Basically I've been listening to, and reading the same thing a few times over a few months and it's been pretty damn helpful. I've been noticing my reading speed and listening comprehension is improving a lot.

As you may recall I've been reading the japanese pod 101 dialogs. I put them in anki with wide delays between subsequent readings (graduating interval:12 days, ease:300) so I see each dialog maybe 4-5 times in a year. I basically remember the gist of the dialog but I'm definitely not memorizing it. Sometimes I listen to the dialogs in the car. I put the entire season on shuffle, so sometimes I hear a dialog I haven't read before and sometimes I hear one that I've read and listened to a few times.

But every time I read or listen to the dialog, my reading speed and comprehension increases. Some of this undoubtedly is due to the fact that I'm learning this particular arrangement of words, but I think it's a lot more than this because fresh dialogs of a similar difficulty are also benefiting. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that since I know the story somewhat, I can guess roughly what words are coming next which allows me to know what the words I "kind of recognize" mean without stopping to look them up. In other words, it's artificially increasing my comprehension so that those vaguely recognized words are perfectly understood so they go more easily into my memory.

I'm not really doing a good job of explaining, but I feel like practicing reading and listening to familiar material is allowing me to understand fresh material better than simply reading and listening to fresh material. Incidentally I don't get the same effect from single sentences - it needs to be material with more context.
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#9
Wow thank you all for the suggestions!
Sorry if I don't answer in detail now but it's been like two days that I barely sleep so my brain is a mess ._.
I'll answer better when I recover my sleep Tongue
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#10
Sorry for the late answer!

SomeCallMeChris: they seem really effective so I've decided that this will be my main format (sentence with target word in hiragana on front) but,
howtwosavealif3: you motivated me to give it another try xD so I'll eventually switch the cards from recognition to production, but only once I've first studied them in recognition.
This way I'll first gain confidence with the sentence and once I switch it to production it will be easier to recall the right word.
vladz0r: ahaha thank you this looks great! I'll definitely use it. Images are the best to help recall the right word among the many synonims.
yogert909: great suggestion! In fact I'm doing something similar but with audiobooks. I've tried jpod101 and I think it's great. I mean, audio is great, every lesson has transcripts and the dialog-only audio is available if you don't want to listen to the english explanations. The only issue that I have with jpod101 is that the lessons are boring to me :/ I wonder if the more advanced lessons are better in this respect. I've tried the chinese and english pod and they seems more interesting. There are lessons as "today we'll talk about (insert interesting topic)" and they talk and discuss the topic like cooking, college life, movies and so on... It's more like a true podcast while the jpod lessons are more like "fake" dialogs, but to be sincere I've tried only the newbie lessons.

(2017-03-12, 6:55 pm)deign Wrote: The mental energy is very precious and should be carefully invested in order to keep having fun.

This is very true! This is why I like tools like epwing2anki so much, you have to do barely nothing in order to make cards!
Edited: 2017-03-16, 10:15 am
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