Back

[Kanji Koohii] Indentifying kanji instead of matching them to keywords

#1
The review sessions show me the keywork in English and I have to answer by giving the Japanese kanji. Is there a way to do it the other way around: to be shown the kanji and to answer by giving the keyword?
Edited: 2017-03-02, 6:40 am by ファブリス
Reply
#2
You can do that in Anki, but it's not a recommended way to practice. The keyword isn't all that useful, in reality. I would spend the time working on learning the readings, if you're done with RTK1, or on grammar or aural skills.
Reply
#3
Agreed. Going Kanji to Keyword is passive and generally gives a false sense of comprehension. In addition, it reinforces a bad habit that there's one and only one concept for kanji.

Trust us, you'll get PLENTY of kanji recognition practice when you move on to grammar and vocabulary. Only instead of just a keyword, it'll be for concepts and pronunciation in Japanese.
Reply
(March 20-31) All Access Pass: 25% OFF Basic, Premium & Premium PLUS! 
Coupon: ALLACCESS2017
JapanesePod101
#4
I finished RTK1 a few years ago and now that I'm reading and expanding my vocabulary I find the RTK1 keywords VERY useful.  I use them as a way of referring to particular kanji.  e.g. "driver" is a compound composed of the kanji represented by "carry-revolve-hand".  The keywords are a way of keeping the different kanji straight in your mind, since each kanji is assigned a unique keyword.

The keywords are also a handy way of pulling up particular kanji in vlookups in excel.

In fact I like the keywords so much that in my vocabulary lists I include the keywords (in square brackets).

When I was going through RTK1 I studied both ways:  keyword to kanji and kanji to keyword.  Both ways were necessary.
Reply
#5
I thank the three people who have replied to this post, however none of them answered my question. The question still stands.
Reply
#6
(2017-03-01, 10:46 pm)ItaiB Wrote: I thank the three people who have replied to this post, however none of them answered my question. The question still stands.

LOL!  You're right, we didn't.

I think only the founder of this website can answer the question.
Reply
#7
The first reply answered your question.
Reply
#8
That is not an answer to OP's question. That's telling OP that they can do it in anki (not what they asked for) and that they don't want what they think they want (which is never a valid answer).
Reply
#9
(2017-03-01, 11:16 pm)wareya Wrote: That is not an answer to OP's question. That's telling OP that they can do it in anki (not what they asked for) and that they don't want what they think they want (which is never a valid answer).

To answer is "No" cause that's up to Fabrice and he has said no over the years. If OP wants to simulate it, then there's Anki or maybe even a greasemonkey script.

The others are because this has been asked numerous times, and we're offering a set opinion based on experience. In this it is an appropriate response given the original question was answered.
Reply
#10
(2017-03-01, 11:29 pm)Nukemarine Wrote: To answer is "No" cause that's up to Fabrice and he has said no over the years. If OP wants to simulate it, then there's Anki or maybe even a greasemonkey script.

The others are because this has been asked numerous times, and we're offering a set opinion based on experience. In this it is an appropriate response given the original question was answered.

That makes the answer "you can't and it won't be added", not "do this instead".
Reply
#11
Just to chime in on the issue, I think going kanji --> English meaning is fine. I'm not an RtK user, but learning purely to identify kanji is good enough IMO since you don't actually need to produce individual kanji, but words and phrases instead.

When learning Chinese back in school, we learned what hanzi meant but didn't have to produce individual hanzi based on a meaning (beyond a few early exercises). Fairly early on, we switched to focusing on multi-kanji words instead and practicing how to use them in sentences (an exercise known as 造句).

@OP, you can always use one of the kanji decks available for Anki and customise it to the format you'd like.
Edited: 2017-03-02, 12:34 am
Reply
#12
Actually, I didn't know what software he was using.  As far as I knew, he was using Anki.  He also didn't say that it had to be done with this site's software. So, yes, I answered the (fairly vague) question.
Edited: 2017-03-02, 12:34 am
Reply
#13
Thanks to everyone who's chimed in. I've already reviewed 200 kanji on this site and adapted them to my liking by changing keywords, selecting favorite stories and adding my own stories where appropriate. Is it possible to migrate all this work to Anki?
Edited: 2017-03-02, 1:24 am
Reply
#14
(2017-03-02, 12:32 am)creamyhorror Wrote: Just to chime in on the issue, I think going kanji --> English meaning is fine. I'm not an RtK user, but learning purely to identify kanji is good enough IMO since you don't actually need to produce individual kanji, but words and phrases instead.

I understand where you're coming from, but honestly, you might as well not do RTK at all if you're going to go kanji->keyword. There are tons of kanji recognition methods out there.

The entire point of RTK is to be able to produce the kanji from the keyword, which is for two reasons... obviously, to be able to write the kanji - which actually matters quite a bit if you intend to actually interact with real Japanese people in the language, and is also supremely convenient for handwriting entry interface methods in cases where you aren't sure of the pronunciation of the word.

For most students though, the most important point is that the method makes the kanji extremely memorable as individual characters, in much the same way that writing words in any language is an extremely valuable tool for learning to recognize them. Of course you -can- also learn to recognize words (or kanji) without learning to write them, but learning to write them helps them sink into the memory very deeply, very quickly.

If you're going to go the recognition direction alone, you might as well skip RTK altogether and just get to it with the 10x extra flashcard repetitions you're going to need to learn to read without writing. If you're going to go both directions, then as other people have pointed out, you're going to get tons of recognition practice later on with vocab cards.

Also I don't think there is a way to export the site's data to Anki. There used to be a tool to do that but the site has gone through several drastic changes since then and the site owner strongly discourages other tools from piggybacking on his work. If there is a current tool to do that, you won't learn about it on this site because that information would get removed.
Reply
#15
Quote:you might as well not do RTK at all if you're going to go kanji->keyword. There are tons of kanji recognition methods out there.

Could you please name some kanji recognition methods that are better than RTK for those who wish to go both keyword->kanji and kanji->keyword?
Edited: 2017-03-02, 3:44 am
Reply
#16
There's no resource which doesn't have caveats for either method. One that handles keyword->kanji well is going to have one keyword per kanji, which is bad for kanji->keyword. The inverse is also true. You have to decide which one is a priority or what sort of study you want before you can get a real recommendation about what's good enough for both.
Reply
#17
(2017-03-01, 11:07 am)ItaiB Wrote: The review sessions show me the keywork in English and I have to answer by giving the Japanese kanji. Is there a way to do it the other way around: to be shown the kanji and to answer by giving the keyword?

Yes there is, and a more efficient kanji > keyword review is provided in Vocab Shuffle. Though it could use some improvements, the idea is that you're shown actual words (kanji compounds); On desktop at least, you can hover on a kanji to reveal the keyword (tooltip) and/or click it to see the Study page.

Often times you'll find the two modes provided give a word with just the kanji and some kana. So you get more context for the character while you review from the kanji.

As others suggested, a simple kanji > keyword flashcard mode would be easy to do, and quite inefficient.

I just realized maybe a better solution in between Vocab Shuffle mode and what people think is what they want, is a vocab mode that uses only words with a single kanji?. So when you flip you'd see the word meaning and the keyword. And when a match can not be found in JMDICT (common word + only uses one kanji) then it can just show keyword after flipping card.
Reply
#18
Quote:As others suggested, a simple kanji > keyword flashcard mode would be easy to do
The could you please do it? I will be very grateful.

Quote:I just realized maybe a better solution in between Vocab Shuffle mode and what people think is what they want,
I know what I want. I am an adult. Even if this is a bad idea, please allow me to make my own mistakes. I do not want a vocab shuffle, I want a review mode with the flip side of the 'cards'.

Since it is not difficult to add this feature (as you mentioned), and since, as others have pointed out, this request has come up in the past, would you please add this feature? If it helps, I will be willing to pay for this feature, if the price is reasonable and if the addition is done soon so I can benefit from it.
Edited: 2017-03-02, 6:09 am
Reply
#19
(2017-03-02, 2:25 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: Also I don't think there is a way to export the site's data to Anki. There used to be a tool to do that but the site has gone through several drastic changes since then and the site owner strongly discourages other tools from piggybacking on his work. If there is a current tool to do that, you won't learn about it on this site because that information would get removed.

I have to clarify here because you imply a lot of things that are untrue.

1) Site provided a way to export your ENTIRE data pretty much since the beginning: stories, and flashcard

2) It's not MY responsibility to write exporters for specific software like Anki. DUH.

3) Whatever drastic changes you refer to are simply untrue. The exported data has remained in practically the same CSV format since beginning.

4) As for "piggybacking" that's a loaded word open for many interpretations.

First off, Kanji Ryokucha is an Android client that talks with the Kanji Koohii sites and lets users review and visit Study page from outside the website. So in addition to your data being completely OPEN and available at any one time, it's also accessible to a third party app. The fact that few people care about creating a Koohii client, has nothing to do with me and more to do wiht the fact that Anki has got a cult like following much like some linux distros where basically everything else is crap and Anki is the only worthwhile program to use.

Secondly, I added a forum rule regarding scraped content. Yes, SCRAPED CONTENT. People even brought the site down once with a stupid script that was stressing the server. Kanji Koohii is a service, not a database to fill your decks. I don't want to get in this discussion again. If people want to scrape stories from the site for their decks as long as they do it sensibly without stressing the server and I don't hear about it then I don't care.

Besides, a few people have asked me permission to use the stories and my approach usually, is, yes, you can include 1-3 "top stories" in your iOS /Android app, and provided a way for people to visit the corresponding Study pages if they want to see more stories. I think that is a much fairer exchange and one that supports everybody, unlike people who scrape the stories and then piss on my work here telling new users that Anki is the only thing worthwhile, while directing them to decks containing not just my stories, but also in some cases the copyrighted stories from Heisig. Yeah, I'm angry about it.

For the record apps that asked my permission and use some Koohii stories responsibly are OUT THERE. I just don't have a good record like I can't find the emails right now. I don't remember what they were called but there is at least a couple I remember. And of course there is Kanji Ryokucha.

At the end of day ,it's about RESPECTING other people's work and efforts.

5) Information that gets removed : decks featuring scraped content as per forum rule I linked above, as well as decks featuring Heisig stories.

As for the tools that is simply UNTRUE. While I am obviously in a frustrating position when the forum / community I nurtured keeps encouraging people to stop using Koohii and migrate to Anki even when they've just started... the fact is I have NEVER removed / moderated such a topic as far as I can remember.

I am EXTREMELY lenient when it comes to this forum moderation. You guys have pretty much discouraged me from 2-3 years after I started Koohii to improve my site because ever since this forum started to grow it's always been about Anki. You guys repeatedly; implicitly tell me "we don't care about your site all we care about are the stories". If it weren't for donations and the kind emails I get from time to time I'd have given up a long time ago. So please kindly take your accusations to the nearest bullshit collector, thank you.
Reply
#20
(2017-03-02, 6:07 am)ItaiB Wrote: (...)
I know what I want. I am an adult. Even if this is a bad idea, please allow me to make my own mistakes. I do not want a vocab shuffle, I want a review mode with the flip side of the 'cards'.(...)

You make a really good point there, something I have been thinking about lately.

I will add an issue for this on Github. Please keep in mind I have to also move site to HTTPS soon, I'm not sure what I want to prioritize now. I think the kanji > keyword is fairly simple, and the "one kanji word" idea can be added at a later point.

If you end up using some other SRS that's totally fine. Use whatever fulfills your requirements, and the fact you provided feedback about it is very helpful.

In any case I'll post the issue here later, so anyone interested can subscribe to it for follow up and/or provided additional feedback there.
Reply
#21
(2017-03-02, 6:07 am)ItaiB Wrote: Since it is not difficult to add this feature (as you mentioned), and since, as others have pointed out, this request has come up in the past, would you please add this feature? If it helps, I will be willing to pay for this feature, if the price is reasonable and if the addition is done soon so I can benefit from it.

Mind, my intention is to add this as a "Free review" mode so it would likely end up in the Kanji Review page. It doesn't make much sense to add another SRS tracking for this (trust me once you have 1000+ cards you'll never keep up with both). So it's more like something you can do while learning new characters, or just once in a while to test yourself. Does that sound rihgt?
Reply
#22
Not editing my earlier post because I don't have anything to take back. I meant to add a link to one of the apps I mentioned in point 4 :

Kanji Stories (iPhone, iPad app for RevTK)

My definition of "piggybacking" (ie. taking advantage of) is a positive one that includes benefiting users of Koohii who may want a native app alternative, or some reference to use on the go. I'm more than happy to recommend these apps that "piggyback" on Koohii in a way that benefits everyone.
Reply
#23
(2017-03-01, 11:07 am)ItaiB Wrote: The review sessions show me the keywork in English and I have to answer by giving the Japanese kanji. Is there a way to do it the other way around: to be shown the kanji and to answer by giving the keyword?

It's worth mentioning, because I don't think I saw it in the thread that James Heisig specifically recommends against this in the RTK book. I know this didn't answer the question, but to complete the arguments.
Reply
#24
Here is the Github issues if you'd like a follow up. I think I might just work on that since https is not super urgent.

Add a Kanji > Keyword review mode #79

Subscribe to it, and / or feel free to add comments there, or provide additional feedback once I made a first implementation (which you'll hear in the site news then).
Reply
#25
Firstly let me say that I really appreciate the hard work you've put into this site. I enjoy it tremendously. I tried another free site that, on the surface, had many more features that I find attractive, but the site was so buggy, even though it's been online for many years, that I simply couldn't use it. Your site, on the other hand, even though it doesn't offer all the features I'm interested in, is wonderfully stable and simple to use, and clearly a lot of thought and hard work have gone into making it and maintaining it. I don't think there is an alternative to it at the present time, not even Anki, since Anki doesn't offer the same interactivity with user-provided content (i.e. the stories) that this site provides. So a big THANK YOU!

Thank you also for considering adding a new feature similar to the one I requested. I appreciate it. It is not exactly what I had in mind. If it were up to me, this feature would be integrated into the SRS. HOWEVER, better this than nothing.
Reply