I've had much more free time lately. So basically, what I've been doing is getting as much sentences as I can, and putting them into my SRS. The thing is, I add at least 50 sentences every day, with each sentence having a maximum of 2 new words in them. I'm finding that my reviews are taking a long time. I do about 100, and that takes 3-4 hours per day.

What usually ends up happening is that I brute force the learning. I naturally can't remember the readings of the words on the first try because I have 50 other new words to learn. But in that 3-4 hours I do end up getting the right answers for them(on average I fail each of those new sentence 2). I'm guessing that it's taking me a long time because I'm learning a lot of things per day. But, what I really need are suggestions to make me more efficient.

btw, I've been doing sentence mining for a while. But, never with this much load. I've been at this for 2 weeks.

Well, you could try Kanji Odessy 2001

(BROKEN LINK) http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=918

It introduces the kanji compunds a bit more systamictally, meaning that you would not see SOOO much variety in your 50 per day.

Frankly I am amazed that the ATJALT Guy did 50 a day! I have found, like you, that adding that much material for a week or two will kick up your actual review time pretty high (and it stays like that for a while also). And in addition, the guy was mining for sentences, which I am sure took time, and then typing it all into Supermemo. Just finding one or two hours a day to strickly do the reiviews is hard enough for me!

Currently, I do about 10-20 new senteces a day and that seems more than enough. (and truthfull, not every day either).

Yeah, I've dialed down the rate I add new sentences at as well. If I don't, I wind up drowning in sentences, and can't get to learning the new material in Anki. I'm also going to get pickier about which sentences I choose to go both ways with. Furthermore, one thing I do when I'm having problems with vocab-- I grab a dictionary or online dictionary, or whatever, and find a *short* sentence with just the new word in it, if possible. If not, I just stick the word on a card by itself.

The sentences alone in KO are very good, but they have a nasty habit of sometimes introducing *too much* new vocab at a time per sentence. I'm still trying to figure out how to manage it all optimally, but I think adding a few extra cards for those problematic sentences may help more... that and adding fewer KO sentences at a time.

I've firmly decided not to go both ways, it just is taking time from learning new words. If your passive vocab gets bigger, the active is sure to follow. Also, the more words you know, the more known words you will see in future sentences, so much so that they will be unforgettable. Kanji like eat, drink and now are so heavily engrained in my memory I just can't imagine forgetting them. The more reading and sentences the better. Khatzu already is fluent, he can afford to go both ways now, of course.

phauna Wrote:I've firmly decided not to go both ways, it just is taking time from learning new words. .

I went both ways for a while and what I found is its much harder to reproduce the kanji compunds then to read it. So my solution now is when I get see a older card again, say six months old, that I can read but maybe I feel like I cant produce it so well, I'll make a new card then. Rather than make an active and passive card at the same time with totally new material

rich_f Wrote:The sentences alone in KO are very good, but they have a nasty habit of sometimes introducing *too much* new vocab at a time per sentenc.

Very true. It obvious that the book was not trying to follow the CURRENT LEVEL +1 theory (or whatever its called).
If I get a sentence that has more than two new words in it for me, I make more than one card, and highlight different kanji per card. That way I can consider the card "passed" if I get the highlighted card correct, even if the other readings are off. eventually i get all the readings down that way.

Aye, KO seems more and more like an "Intermediate" level book as time goes on. My previous sentences from UBJG seem so "tame" compared to KO.

I don't think I could handle 50 sentences a day without four hours of time to fully tackle the load. Ten to twenty seem better fitted to my two hours of time. I go production and recognition though.

Is the whole point of adding these sentences to gain vocab? If so, why is it so frowned upon to study them in isolation?

The whole idea is to learn words in context.

If you learn words out of context, you'll use them in ways that sound odd. For example, fatigued has a similar meaning to tired, but you probably wouldn't say "I'm fatigued," you'd probably say "I'm tired." (Or insert whatever your brand of English uses for "I'm tired.") I'm sure someone can think of a better example. I'm tired right now. >_>

The idea is that good sentences use the language in the way that a native speaker would understand. That way,the vocab you pick up isn't put forward in an awkward way.

That's another reason why a lot of folks sentence mine from things like TV shows, radio shows, newspapers, books, etc., because they're looking for natural examples of the language being used. You want to make sure that what you're learning is something you can use in a safe manner. (So sentence mining from Anime, Manga, or Yakuza dramas, for example, can potentially be dicey. You don't want to look like an idiot, or insult your boss or something.)

The tricky bit is not to overwhelm your brain with too much new info for each sentence, because you wind up with too many potential fail points. So learning 2 new vocab words is probably safe, but once you start going into the 3-4 range, you're going to have problems. You'll keep failing a sentence, but it may be caused by different words each time. So your review pile will bloat. Not fun. The best way I found to deal with it is to create extra cards with sentences for vocab that trips me up. Yes, it's more reviews, but it helps out in the long run. (I just use dictionaries or whatever I can find.)

This is one of the downsides of KO... the sentences I've gone through so far have everything from really basic to really obscure vocab, with no real pattern to it, except for the kanji you're studying. So you'll plow through 2-3 sentences okay, then one will come up and bite you on the butt with 3-4 new words in addition to the word containing the kanji you're trying to learn.

That said, I think it's a good book... it just might not be for everyone.

"If I get a sentence that has more than two new words in it for me, I make more than one card, and highlight different kanji per card. That way I can consider the card "passed" if I get the highlighted card correct, even if the other readings are off. eventually i get all the readings down that way."

This is a excellent idea. Thanks for the tip!

blackstockc Wrote:"If I get a sentence that has more than two new words in it for me, I make more than one card, and highlight different kanji per card. That way I can consider the card "passed" if I get the highlighted card correct, even if the other readings are off. eventually i get all the readings down that way."

This is a excellent idea. Thanks for the tip!

You`re welocme! It was trial and error, believe me!

Just a little more about KO, I noticed somewhere around 250, the amount of new kanji per sentence seemed to drop. (they reuse previous learned kanji as much as possible). So the begining "learning curve" is high, but if you stick it out, I think the book does get eaiser, around the half way point *

I have to agree with zazen666. I am struggling to get through 25 new sentences along with my KO review every day. I don't think I could reasonably learn 50 a day for a long period of time. I did 72 on my second day, but that was because I already knew the readings for all of the kanji there and there was very little new vocabulary at that early stage.

Ｊｕｓｔ　ａｎ　Ｕｐｄａｔｅ．Ｒｉｇｈｔ　ｎｏｗ，　ｗｈａｔ　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｄｏ　ｉｓ　ａｄｄ　ｔｏｎｓ　ｏｆ　ｓｅｎｔｅｎｃｅｓ　ａｔ　ｏｎｅ　ｓｉｔｔｉｎｇ．　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｗａｔｃｈ　ａ　ｄｒａｍａ，　ｌｏｏｋ　ａｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｓｃｒｉｐｔ　ａｎｄ　ｇｅｔ　ａ　ｌｏｔ　ｏｆ　ｓｅｎｔｅｎｃｅｓ　ｆｒｏｍ　ｉｔ．　Ｏｎ　ａｖｅｒａｇｅ，　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｓａｙ　ａｂｏｕｔ　１００．　i　ｄｏ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｅｖｅｒｙ　ｃｏｕｐｌｅ　ｏｆ　ｄａｙｓ。　There was one whole week where I decided not to add sentences at all because I was being overwhelmed with reviews. As for my original question, right now I don't even worry about it. I guess I'm used to it, used to seeing so many characters that it doesn't really take me much effort to remember them. So my advice to my self of the past lol, just do it.

With KO I currently have no fear of adding too many. In fact I had the same problem as others with too many new kanji in a sentence, and I would stop and go look for extra sentences from the dictionary and type them up.

But I realised that these words came up again, in KO, in later sentences. So now the cure for too many new kanji is to do more and more new sentences in KO. The vocab is highly recycled, so I don't waste time looking for extras to type up. I can start typing when I'm done with the current thousand sentences I already have.

Also, so what if you fail a sentence a bunch of times. You'll see it again, you'll fail it again. There's just no way to not learn it. Putting it into your deck is analogous to putting it directly into your brain, if you keep up the reviews. With UBJG I'd add two hundred sentences some days, they were so easy for my level, I could do a hundred new sentences in an hour.

Mixing hard sentences and easy ones is good for motivation too. Do some difficult ones like KO, then add a bunch of easy formulaic ones.

phauna Wrote:Putting it into your deck is analogous to putting it directly into your brain, if you keep up the reviews..

Perfect. I love how true that is. It reminds me of this:
http://www.tapetext.com/id/72.html

I strongly recommend going both ways with reviews. I initially started (I'm using KO) only going one way as I wanted to become a proficient reader as soon as possible and this more or less worked. However, I noticed that as a rule the new words I was learning would not come to me when I speak. I am now doing both and it is working better, but it still takes a while for new words to be fully integrated into the language I use.

Part of this reason, is that you can cheat in a way going from Hiragana (or in my case audio) to kanji. For example take this sentence 「あの山は火山だ。山の上に火口がある。」. I can hear this and from the context and from remembering the meaning of the sentence understand it's meaning. I know it mentions a crater. Now it is very easy to remember crater as fire mouth, so it is really easy to remember the kanji for this word, however I am not testing my connection between the word phonetically and its meaning/kanji. So when I go to say crater, it is likely I will be able to remember the kanji, but having never needed to remember the pronunciation, I will struggle. The same goes for reading the word.

It is true that production always comes before recognition. But there is production both ways. One way is testing production of the kanji and the other is testing production of the reading. And as I said, I need every advantage I can get to have the words come out when I have never said them before.

Another nice effect of going both ways, is I love reviewing cards by reading the sentences. I'm sorry, but writing out kanji from hiragana is purely a language study thing, it's not a useful skill by itself (although it is tremendously effective of course). But reading real Japanese, understanding the meaning and all the readings is hugely satisfying. I get a buzz every time I breeze through a sentence and it really motivates me to push on. Further more, there is no need to write out anything, so they are REALLY quick! It is not like by going both ways you add a lot of time to your study.

Lastly, with KO, I only consider words that contain the new kanji as what I must remember to pass the card. Assuming I am not really tired, I will write out the whole sentence or any words I am unsure of, but they have no bearing on passing or failing the card. This way even when KO suddenly adds 4 new words, I'm not doomed to failing the card 10 times before I pass it, but I do tend to learn the other new words anyway. Even if I don't though, I will get them later on in the book so I'm not worried.

rich_f Wrote:The whole idea is to learn words in context.

I'm studying vocab in isolation. Every time you find a new word, there's a lot to learn (meaning, reading, pitch accent, what kanji are used and how they are written). As we already know how to write the kanji, that's n+4. Adding grammar, we get n+5, or more. Far from ideal, IMHO.

Quote:If you learn words out of context, you'll use them in ways that sound odd.

The same could be said about learning the kanji in isolation, which, as we all know, is not true. I'm following Antimoon's advice on input before output, so, even after studying a word, I don't consider it 'learned' until I spot it on a real text.

A bit more about how I study vocab: I don't add random words on my SRS. I keep a list of "active kanji" (for eg. say the list is 学 and 大) and their words (in this case, がく, まなぶ, おおきい and だいがく). Everyday, I add a few new kanji to the "active kanji" list and see what new words I can compose (eg. if I add 中, I get なか and ちゅうがく).

The word list comes from EDICT (popular entries), and the filtering is done by a little script I programmed (a little Rails app, actually. Unfortunately, it's not yet polished enough for end users, but if any programmer is interested, I can setup a public repository).

Thermal, I didn't really understand what you are doing. Shouldn't you be looking at the kanji sentence and trying to give the pronunciation and meaning? Recognition always comes before production, because you have to learn the word somehow first, ie read it or hear it. KO should not be about learning kanji, you've learned them, it's to learn vocabulary. Once you've learned the word, then you can try to write it or whatever you want to do. Also you'll need to recognise ten times the amount of words that you can produce to have a conversation. Don't be fooled by the learn everything about one thing before going on to the next thing method. You're allowed to say words you can't write in kanji.

phauna,

Recognition always comes before production in terms of learning something, but in terms of studying as effectively as possible production comes before recognition. Take RTK1 for example, you review from the keyword to the kanji rather than the other way around, as the other way around takes care of itself. I think this is because it is more difficult to do it this way.

Similarly it is more difficult to go from the hiragana to kanji. This is production and reviewing this way should have a better effect than the other way around. Khatzumoto advises this here: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...panese-too

Also one thing I do that is maybe not standard. I have no English on my cards. My answer is the kanji and any I don't understand explained in Japanese. However they are hidden text. So I actually go both ways. From kanji to reading and from reading to kanji. For this is necessary to get words coming out when I speak.

KO for me is more about learning the kanji for words actually. I already have a pretty high level of Japanese and know most of the words in KO already. But for the new words, to get them to come into my head when I am speaking does not follow so easily, which is why I am studying both ways as mentioned above.

Your passive vocabulary will always be bigger than your active. So you are always recognising more than you produce. There is no way around it, even in your native language. You often have to see things quite a few times and in quite a few contexts before you are able to use them. You can't output what you haven't already inputted into your brain. You can only produce a small fraction of what you can recognise, and furthermore, you only need that small fraction. Anyway, if you are writing kanji from hiragana prompts, that's not really producing, that's matching a label to another label.

Speaking is production, composing some writing is production. Copying a sentence is not production, it's a dictation.

I'm into production, but I don't think kana to kanji is production. Resolve has the right idea about production, it's what you want to say, into saying it, for example,

Question:

Yesterday, sushi, ate,

Answer:

昨日、寿司を食べた。

So production for me, and indeed linguists and teachers, is 'making a sentence'. Active recall is production. I mean, you could call a kanji to kana / English card, production, if you mean producing the meaning and pronunciation. Dictation is more a skill activity, indeed it's more recognition than production. Kana to kanji cards are like a spelling test or something. Using the language is production.

I'm really strict because I don't want to forget things. From the first, if I don't know the reading, or understand the sentence, and can't think of a suitable meaning for tricky words, then I fail it completely. This just means that sentences stay under the one month mature card limit for a lot longer, but once they've matured they're usually not a problem. The added repetition helps with difficult words in as much as I see them in a different context and more often.

Failing strictly or leniently is kind of irrelevant, if you are lenient now you will just fail it later on, if you are strict now, then you won't fail it later on, but you'll fail it a lot now. I prefer to be strict because I don't have to think about it, I don't have to 'judge' my level of understanding, and waste time doing it.

Well, there are two ways to do it, going from the reading to the kanji and visa versa. I call going from reading to kanji production since it contains the MOST production. These are generally accepted terms AFAIK and they are in Anki as the way to choose which way you want to review cards.

You are going from English to Japanese which is not exactly the AJATT method. So I guess we aren't really on the same page here. Personally I think you want to have no English on the cards if your level is high enough, but to each their own. I am saying in terms of the AJATT method as Katsumoto describes it, going both ways is advisable.

I am not saying that everything you learn should be active. Of course this is impossible. But the ultimate goal of learning new words is to be able to use them, unless you just want to use Japanese receptively.

Well the trade off is that you can know lots more passive vocabulary, or a small amount of active. It's impossible to activate all your passive vocabulary, try even doing it in your native language, you can't. Anyway, production for me is speaking to my language partners and living in Japan and doing stuff. If I wanted to use an SRS to become active I would not just use dictation, you're still not bringing the language out actively, the kana are there to tell you. It's still going from Japanese to Japanese, so it's really not active.

Ideally active would be having a thought and then using Japanese to express it. Because we are all non-natives, often we need English prompts to put into out decks and use to express so my above example is one way to be active. Another way to practice active recall with your SRS, but using only Japanese would be to use a Japanese question as a prompt.

Question:

昨日、何を食べたの。

Answer:

well you just leave this bit blank and answer it aloud, or you could give one example, like ラーメンを食べた。

And if want to elicit question, then you have to ask Jeopardy style.

Side 1:

富士山へ登る。　(質問)

Side 2:

Again leave it blank, or give an example, like 明日、何をする？

So you can use English prompts or Japanese, but note that you're going from your thought to Japanese, the thought being the answer to the question.

I don't think it's a problem. It's like kanji. We practice only production, and our recognition suffers. But we get a ton better at recognition after some practice. So I think it makes sense that we'll get a ton better with active vocab with speaking practice.

Yes, I'm trying to whip through KO passively, because from what I've done so far, when I'm speaking to my language partner, I seem to be able to just think for a moment and find the word I need. Words like nutrition, bad economy, petrol, opening ceremony, etc. I've just reached out and they were there, and I've only been using production. Of course fluency in these words is never going to happen, they are just rare words, rarely used. The words I use all the time, what, how, when, who, he, she, go, come, study, etc. they have no choice but to be active, they get thrown in every time I speak.

As for Heisig, well it's just a prompt, soon you'll be writing and reading those kanji all the time and they will become more and more active with use. Those who do cards both ways, perhaps you might allow that your greater activation comes about through spending twice as much time on each word? I mean, half the time you must recognise it and half you have to produce it. So it's like double the time I spend when only recognising.

Do whatever you want to do, of course.