Hey,

I'm always struggling with the way of writing 衣 (garment) as a primitive when it has the "scarf" meaning. If there is something "beneath" garment as a primitive, the lower part is "unhooked", says the book.
I don't understand that rule. I know that for 園 "park" (#585) it is unhooked, as it is for 遠 distant (#402). But not for 壊 demolition (#400) or 猿 monkey (#403). But there is something "beneath" is, isn't it? Or should it be "under"?

Maybe somebody could clear this up for me... :-)

Thank you,

Proxx

Not sure what you mean. There is nothing "beneath" the scarf element for 400 or 403. With 585, the outer box runs beneath the scarf, and with 402 the "road" runs beneath the scarf.

Using the examples that you have given, as howdycowdy has pointed out, there is nothing beneath (or under) the scarf element itself for 400 or 403, and therefore the second stroke of the scarf element ends in a hook.

for 402 and 585 there is something beneath the scarf primitive, and therefore the scarf primitive's second stroke does not end in a hook but rather a simple straight line.

haha sorry.
Maybe I should learn English first
I thought "beneath" is similar to "near", but now I looked it up... it's a synonym for under. My question must have sounded quite confusing.

Thanks for you answers, now it all makes more sense...

You've got to be kidding me. I've been having trouble with this primitive for months, and all because I skimmed through Heisig's explanations and missed the very last sentence... >_<

Any idea why he's renaming the bottom four strokes of this primitive as "rag" in 旅 (#1048)? Seems like we've been calling those 4 strokes "scarf" for the longest time.

[Katsuo]

jambor Wrote:Any idea why he's renaming the bottom four strokes of this primitive as "rag" in 旅 (#1048)? Seems like we've been calling those 4 strokes "scarf" for the longest time.

"Scarf" and "rag" are similar looking, but different. For example the latter contains "hito", 人, {in its "ninben" (left-side) form}, whereas the former doesn't. Notice how the first stroke of "rag" is shorter than the second.

Also, with reference to the earlier posts in this thread, note that the second stroke of "rag" doesn't have a hook, even though there is nothing underneath it.

Heisig often distinguishes between similar looking primitives by giving them related but distinct names.

I have a similar question about this character.

What is the stroke order when "garment" is written as a primative to the left (cloak)? I would have thought that "first time" would have been eight strokes - not seven.

I did this, but when added to the "dagger" in the character for "first time" it came out the wrong number of strokes.

Stroke 1: short vertical on top
Stroke 2: horizontal (thus making "top hat" out of the first two)
Stroke 3: slanted from right to left
Stroke 4: longer vertical below stroke three
Stroke 5: drop off to the right
Stroke 6: slanted, connecting the fifth to the third.

So does it go like this:

Stoke 1: short vertical on top
Stroke 2: seven, just below first
Stroke 3: longer vertical below seven
Stroke 4: drop off to the right
Stroke 5: slanted, connecting the second to the fourth

wonderflex Wrote:So does it go like this:

Stoke 1: short vertical on top
Stroke 2: seven, just below first
Stroke 3: longer vertical below seven
Stroke 4: drop off to the right
Stroke 5: slanted, connecting the second to the fourth

Yes. You can see stroke order diagrams on Jim Breen's wwwjdic site now. Find the kanji and click SOD or SODA.

初　is here.

Thank you very much. You just led to me a whole new great tool.

I hope it is ok to bump this up as I have a related question.

I am trying to relate ring 環 and send back 還 to my stories of distant, monkey, etc but I need to have a solid understanding on how the scarf works. Basing on Heisig's rule, the scarf is unhooked when there is something beneath it. But not for the case of "send back". Even the jisho result http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E9%82%84 has a confusing image (the scarf is hooked) but in the stroke order it is unhooked. Which is which? Is this just a matter of font? Or not? I am confused... hope someone can help shed some light here. Thanks in advance!

[Katsuo]

"Send back" 還 is usually written without a hook and therefore does follow the rule of thumb that the hook of "scarf" is lost when there is something written below it. "Ring" 環 is the exception to this rule as it has no hook despite having nothing below it.

If you are seeing a hook in "send back" it may be that your browser is set to a Chinese or unusual font.

Katsuo Wrote:"Send back" 還 is usually written without a hook and therefore does follow the rule of thumb that the hook of "scarf" is lost when there is something written below it. "Ring" 環 is the exception to this rule as it has no hook despite having nothing below it.

If you are seeing a hook in "send back" it may be that your browser is set to a Chinese or unusual font.

I knew it! It is probably indeed the font that is installed here in the office. Thanks Katsuo!