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kyuujitai, shinjitai, fonts…

#1
I have seen several threads related to this subject but still cannot figure out simple answers to the following questions.

- As a learner of Japanese how can I deal consistently with the rather confusing situation resulting from the simplification of kanji components in jouyou kanji, which was not extended to non-jouyou. Is there an authoritative source giving the correct/official/accepted form of each kanji (if there are special cases when Japanese people would use them differently, I suppose that this has to be learned later by practice)?


- As a user or Heisig's method, should I define alternative primitives for different variants of the components? Knowing that the simplified form is used for jouyou kanji and the traditional form for non-jouyou would require me to remember which kanji are jouyou and which are not. Not very practical…


- How can I make sure that using this site is not going to cause additional confusion? I understand that one should be careful to use Japanese, rather than Chinese fonts but, even then, my browser (Firefox) displays the simplified form of "food" in "ame" 飴 when I review this kanji in RevTK (including when I hover on the character to display the stroke-order font ). On the contrary, I get the traditional form in the same browser while writing this message. What is the best way of fixing this?
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#2
For me, learning to read the variants was easy, and I just ignore which one is correct for which kanji when writing. Unless you're taking some test, it doesn't matter which you use.
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#3
(2016-11-11, 4:51 am)jmignot Wrote: - How can I make sure that using this site is not going to cause additional confusion? I understand that one should be careful to use Japanese, rather than Chinese fonts but, even then, my browser (Firefox) displays the simplified form of "food" in "ame" 飴 when I review this kanji in RevTK (including when I hover on the character to display the stroke-order font ). On the contrary, I get the traditional form in the same browser while writing this message. What is the best way of fixing this?

This can be fixed by changing the css to something like:
Code:
font-family: "Open Sans",Arial,freesans,"ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W3", "Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro",Osaka, "メイリオ", Meiryo, "MS Pゴシック", "MS PGothic", sans-serif;

The only way for you to do that is tools like GreaseMonkey.
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#4
For the most part, you'll use a different keyword for components that have different forms even if they were originally the same component before some historical transformation or simplification. That worry should be self-solving if you are using Heisig's book. If you're doing some kind of self-study or if you run into an exception that you feel could cause confusion then, yes, it's probably best to have different keywords for different ways of writing the 'same' component.

If you look at any printed version and most electronic versions of the Jouyou list, it should provide you the officially recognized forms. Beyond that, you simply have to rely on dictionaries and/or what you see in actual use. When it comes to the kinds of variations that occur with font selection, if you learn to read and write the Heisig form, it shouldn't be much trouble to learn to read the other forms. Some other kinds of older alternative characters might be more challenging ... some of them are easily learned because they just have extra components, but others are really hard to recognize as transformations of the same character, or in some cases are entirely unique characters that also happen to have been used to spell the same word.


Sometimes people do use non-simplified forms or 'outdated' alternate kanji spellings as some kind of aesthetic decision, but that's pretty much restricted to novel writing. (Although if you read any kind of reader's forum discussing novels and such, you may see some of that kind of thing there too; of course, because some changes are based on font rather than character id, there are limits to how you can express yourself on the web.) Of course there are some cases of multiple kanji spellings where both are acceptable and widely used.

Really the short of it is,
- Just lean on Heisig to learn the basics.
- Learn your dictionary, love your dictionary.
- Pay attention to what you see in actual use 'in the wild' as you read native writing.
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#5
(2016-11-11, 7:18 pm)bertoni Wrote: For me, learning to read the variants was easy, and I just ignore which one is correct for which kanji when writing.  Unless you're taking some test, it doesn't matter which you use.

Yet I guess writing 龝 for 秋 would make a difference…
From what I have read, it seems that shinjitai is the accepted form for jouyou (with perhaps a few exceptions in practice) and the problems occur when it comes to hyougaiji, for which extended shinjitai do exist but kyuujitai remains in use and one or the other may be the recommended version depending on characters, even containing the same component.
(A lot of information on this in the Wikipedia article on shinjitai)
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#6
(2016-11-11, 8:27 pm)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: If you look at any printed version and most electronic versions of the Jouyou list, it should provide you the officially recognized forms. Beyond that, you simply have to rely on dictionaries and/or what you see in actual use. When it comes to the kinds of variations that occur with font selection, if you learn to read and write the Heisig form, it shouldn't be much trouble to learn to read the

Even this is not completely unambiguous. Coming back to my example of the character 飴, RTK3 (printed book) gives the variant with 8 strokes in the left part, but jisho.org favors the 9 strokes form.
Actually, in my browser, it gives a confusing display:

[Image: image.png][url=https://postimage.org/index.php?lang=french][/url]

This, I guess, is due to the upper left form depending on the settings on my machine whereas the other occurrences are graphic objects provided by the jisho web site.

In such a case, would you use either form indifferently?
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#7
For this case, and like Chris said relying on what's in actual use, for ame I've only ever seen this form 飴 (8 strokes on the left).
Edited: 2016-11-12, 8:58 am
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#8
(2016-11-12, 3:34 am)jmignot Wrote:
(2016-11-11, 7:18 pm)bertoni Wrote: For me, learning to read the variants was easy, and I just ignore which one is correct for which kanji when writing.  Unless you're taking some test, it doesn't matter which you use.

Yet I guess writing 龝 for 秋 would make a difference…

Most of the variants I've seen come up when studying RTK are far, far closer than that.  I haven't seen anything that different come up due to style sheet and font differences, but it might be possible, although I didn't think that those shared a code point.  Usually, the differences are dot vs no dot and other smaller differences.
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#9
(2016-11-12, 3:08 pm)bertoni Wrote:
(2016-11-12, 3:34 am)jmignot Wrote:
(2016-11-11, 7:18 pm)bertoni Wrote: For me, learning to read the variants was easy, and I just ignore which one is correct for which kanji when writing.  Unless you're taking some test, it doesn't matter which you use.

Yet I guess writing 龝 for 秋 would make a difference…

Most of the variants I've seen come up when studying RTK are far, far closer than that.  I haven't seen anything that different come up due to style sheet and font differences, but it might be possible, although I didn't think that those shared a code point.  Usually, the differences are dot vs no dot and other smaller differences.

I fully agree. I was just taking an extreme case. I too have never seen such weird variants popping up in RevTK nor in Anki.
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#10
Do they share a code point?
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#11
According to some comments on this page:
https://m.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/4dkugi/
the problem would come from
" JIS X 0213:2004 changing the official JIS stroke layout for certain characters, and thus different ways of writing that codepoint were the official JIS-approved way at different points in time."

In short, new fonts comply with the new specifications whereas older ones do not.
A comprehensive list of characters affected is given here:
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0213...9.E6.AD.A3 and here:
http://kakijun.jp/main/jis2004.html [both in Japanese]

One sees that, for instance, the variants used in the 1995 edition of RTK3 for 飴 or 騙 are (as expected) pre-JIS X 0213:2004 (8 strokes in "food" and left-to-right upper stroke in "door"), whereas jisho.org (at list in the stroke order diagrams) shows the JIS X 0213:2004 forms. Perhaps the 3rd edition of RTK3 published in 2012 contains the new variants.

By the way, in many cases, the change seems to involve a return from "extended" shinjitai to kyuujitai. Does anybody know the rationale for that decision?

Edit: third paragraph added + minor rephrasing
Edited: 2016-11-13, 10:03 am
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#12
(2016-11-12, 4:47 pm)bertoni Wrote: Do they share a code point?

I am not sure of what is meant by "code point" but I have found the following:

 - Unicode U+9F9D - UTF8 E9BE9D
 - Unicode U+79CB - UTF8 E7A78B
In the OS X "Characters" pane, these two are denoted "related characters", together with 䆋 秌, and 穐 (all with different Unicode and UTF8 codes)
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#13
Those are two different code points, so I think they should not be interchangeable due to a font choice. I know that the matchup of kanji forms has some arbitrariness, but I didn't think that two such different characters would be merged.
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#14
(2016-11-12, 4:58 pm)jmignot Wrote: By the way, in many cases, the change seems to involve a return from "extended" shinjitai to kyuujitai. Does anybody know the rationale for that decision?
参考資料:
   JIS漢字コード表の改正について-168字の例示字形を変更-
(平成16年2月20日、経済産業省)(PDF形式)
経済産業省の報道発表 040220kanjicode.pdf
http://www.jisc.go.jp/newstopics/2005/04...jicode.pdf

   日本工業標準調査会 「JIS X0213:2004に関連する情報について」
ニュースとお知らせ-JIS X 0213:2004に関連する情報について
http://www.jisc.go.jp/newstopics/2005/tp0213.htm

   国語審議会 答申 2000年12月8日 「表外漢字字体表」
表外漢字字体表(答申)(抄):文部科学省
http://www.mext.go.jp/b_menu/hakusho/nc/...08002.html

   経済産業省 2004年2月20日 「JIS漢字コード表の改正について」

Short answer is that the use of "extended new character form" (拡張新字体) are unofficial characters and not recognized by the official governing entities. In other words, these "extended new character form" (拡張新字体) should not be used from the beginning, and should be disregarded.
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#15
(2016-11-12, 3:59 am)jmignot Wrote: Even this is not completely unambiguous. Coming back to my example of the character 飴, RTK3 (printed book) gives the variant with 8 strokes in the left part, but jisho.org favors the 9 strokes form.
[b]Actually, in my browser, it gives a confusing display:[/b]

This, I guess, is due to the upper left form depending on the settings on my machine whereas the other occurrences are graphic objects provided by the jisho web site.

In such a case, would you use either form indifferently?
Can you upload and show a screenshot of "your browser confusing display font"?

筆順解説のアニメーション字形と表示されている字形が異なっている場合、ご利用の環境(端末の種類、OSのバージョン、インストールされているフォントなど)が、「JIS X 0213:2004における例示字形の変更」に対応していないと思われます。

[Image: R1jaV]

漢字辞典オンライン >  漢字「飴」について
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://kanji.jitenon.jp/kanjie/2155.html
Click on 明朝体 will show 14 strokes (正字体) "proper font type"
[Image: 2155.gif]
Use in 漢検準1級 and JIS第1水準

異体字※  "variant form of a character" as follows:
Click on 教科書体 will show 13 strokes (許容字体) "acceptable font type"
[Image: 2155b.gif]
補足:
書体欄の「明朝体」「教科書体」は字形に違いがあります
[番号]はそれぞれに対応

漢字辞典オンライン >  漢字「穐」について
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://kanji.jitenon.jp/kanjif/2513.html
穐 (正字体) "proper font type"
Use in 漢検準1級 and JIS第1水準

異体字※ "variant form of a character" as follows:
龝 (標準字体)"standard font type"

[Image: 157b.gif]

漢字辞典オンライン >  漢字「葛」について
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://kanji.jitenon.jp/kanjid/1969.html
[Image: 1969.gif]
(正字体) "proper font type"
補足
平成22年に常用漢字表に追加されました。
Use in 常用漢字, 漢検2級 and JIS第1水準

異体字※ "variant form of a character" as follows:
[Image: 1969b.gif]
[日本]は日本固有の意味
【中】は中学校で習う読み
【高】は高校で習う読み
【△】は表外読み

Further explanation in Japanese (see link below) about why there are different font types being displayed; which could be due to different OS platforms, different terminals and other font settings that is subjected to the hardware devices and/or software programs.
[Image: ans-160488898]

あめは飴と書きますが、食へん+台であめという漢字は存在するのですか?
どの辞書をみても載っていません。教えてください。
Best reply by fontomanie (in Japanese)
ベストアンサーに選ばれた回答
fontomanieさん
2011/6/2602:04:21
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/...1465235599


[Sidetrack]
Chinese Hanzi 汉字
----------------------------
簡体字 or 简体字 (China 中国) Simplified Chinese Characters
繁体字 (Taiwan 臺灣, Hong Kong 香港) Traditional Chinese Characters

Japanese Kanji 漢字
--------------------------------
新字体 "new character form"
旧字体 "old character form"  

Strictly speaking, the Japanese terminology is either "new character form" or "old character form"; but in western material (e.g. wikipedia and similar sites) one may find such label like "Officially Simplified Kanji" (sic) being widely used, which may add on unnecessary confusion to the learners and readers.
Edited: 2016-11-14, 10:41 pm
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#16
(2016-11-14, 6:11 pm)bertoni Wrote: Those are two different code points, so I think they should not be interchangeable due to a font choice.  I know that the matchup of kanji forms has some arbitrariness, but I didn't think that two such different characters would be merged.

I never wrote that they were ever merged in my own experience. I was just reacting to your comment. I thought that you meant that traditional and simplified forms of kanji could be used more or less indifferently. Now I see that you were only referring to kanji with the same code, which is a much more restrictive statement. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
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#17
(2016-11-14, 10:26 pm)eslang Wrote: Short answer is that the use of "extended new character form" (拡張新字体) are unofficial characters and not recognized by the official governing entities. In other words, these "extended new character form" (拡張新字体) should not be used from the beginning, and should be disregarded.

My question was just this one: why did the people who made such decisions refrain from simplifying less common kanji as well, especially when the same type of simplification had already been adopted (and recommended) for jouyou kanji containing the same element.
Also how did it happen that the JIS standard suppressed such simplifications in its 2004 revision after including them for some time previously?

Sorry if the answers are contained in one of your comments or links. I am not so fluent at reading Japanese and it will take me some time to access the information…
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#18
(2016-11-14, 10:40 pm)eslang Wrote: Can you upload and show a screenshot of "your browser confusing display font"?
I had included it in my original post, and it is displayed in my browser. I have no idea of why you cannot see it. I must admit that I had some trouble adding the screen copy using the "image" icon in the edit tool bar of this site, so that I pasted a link by hand. Perhaps this was not the correct method.
The link is : https://postimg.org/image/e2ti51xv3/
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#19
(2016-11-11, 7:56 pm)tokyostyle Wrote: This can be fixed by changing the css to something like:
Code:
font-family: "Open Sans",Arial,freesans,"ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W3", "Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro",Osaka, "メイリオ", Meiryo, "MS Pゴシック", "MS PGothic", sans-serif;

The only way for you to do that is tools like GreaseMonkey.

This is beyond mo command of ccs and GreaseMonkey  :-(
Thanks for the hint anyway.
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#20
(2016-11-15, 2:45 am)jmignot Wrote:
(2016-11-14, 10:26 pm)eslang Wrote: Short answer is that the use of "extended new character form" (拡張新字体) are unofficial characters and not recognized by the official governing entities. In other words, these "extended new character form" (拡張新字体) should not be used from the beginning, and should be disregarded.

My question was just this one: why did the people who made such decisions refrain from simplifying less common kanji as well, especially when the same type of simplification had already been adopted (and recommended) for jouyou kanji containing the same element.
Also how did it happen that the JIS standard suppressed such simplifications in its 2004 revision after including them for some time previously?

Sorry if the answers are contained in one of your comments or links. I am not so fluent at reading Japanese and it will take me some time to access the information…
Some of the reasons that "simplification" are not recommended for the less common kanji are:
(1)  Japanese names (which can have serious implication leading to impersonation or forgery)
(2)  Town/Village names (which lead to changing of sign-boards and letterheads, etc.. that is, costs-burden processing)
(3)  Printing agencies and personal printers at home will have trouble printing them (revised form type) on "new-year greeting cards"

Only in Japan (lol) - the Japanese media (i.e. newspaper/magazines/television network/entertainment/ advertising industries, etc) can exercise their "creative freedom" and so different governing boards may have included them at some time in point during different years due to the different operating system and what-not..... until it went "out-of-hand".

For example
村上   (a well-known writer in Japan) - his name has been switched to and readers who tried to search for his books, ended up not being able to find his literary works on Amazon Japan at that time.
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#21
(2016-11-15, 2:51 am)jmignot Wrote:
(2016-11-14, 10:40 pm)eslang Wrote: Can you upload and show a screenshot of "your browser confusing display font"?
I had included it in my original post, and it is displayed in my browser. I have no idea of why you cannot see it. I must admit that I had some trouble adding the screen copy using the "image" icon in the edit tool bar of this site, so that I pasted a link by hand. Perhaps this was not the correct method.
The link is : https://postimg.org/image/e2ti51xv3/
Jisho site shows 13 strokes "ame" on the top left, but 14 strokes "ame" in the stroke order further down. Huh
飴 #kanji - Jisho.org

This website link below is much better, at least both the display font type and stroke order are 14 strokes, which is consistent.
http://kanji.quus.net/kakijyun/6829.htm

[Image: 2155.gif]
明朝体 - 14 strokes (正字体) "proper font type"

異体字※  "variant form of a character" as follows:
[Image: 2155b.gif]
教科書体 -13 strokes (許容字体) "acceptable font type"

Some candies for you. Big Grin
[Image: img_0?1384053995]
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#22
Even if you by the off chance would one day take 漢検一級 this would really not be a problem. The handwrtitten characters below are accepted variants ( 許容字体):
[Image: hikei3.jpg]
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#23
(2016-11-15, 3:38 am)eslang Wrote: Some candies for you.  Big Grin
[Image: img_0?1384053995]

Nice : two different variants on one single photograph (the blue bag has the "acceptable" variant of あめ)

Thanks for the detailed comments.
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#24
(2016-11-15, 2:39 am)jmignot Wrote:
(2016-11-14, 6:11 pm)bertoni Wrote: Those are two different code points, so I think they should not be interchangeable due to a font choice.  I know that the matchup of kanji forms has some arbitrariness, but I didn't think that two such different characters would be merged.

I never wrote that they were ever merged in my own experience. I was just reacting to your comment. I thought that you meant that traditional and simplified forms of kanji could be used more or less indifferently. Now I see that you were only referring to kanji with the same code, which is a much more restrictive statement. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

No problem.  I should be more clear.
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#25
(2016-11-11, 7:18 pm)bertoni Wrote: For me, learning to read the variants was easy, and I just ignore which one is correct for which kanji when writing.  Unless you're taking some test, it doesn't matter which you use.

I agree with this.

Sometimes I use different keywords though, if I can think of one that sticks. For example, I make 食 "donut" since I use "halo" as a primitive for 良. That connection got pretty thoroughly ingrained, so I started using "square donut (like a fritter at Tim Hortons, or something)" for the old form(as in 餅), since it is not hard to feed off of the previous connection.

a lot of kanji you'll see in Japan written using either old and new versions of a primitive. I can't think of a single case where it loses meaning to get them mixed up.

EDIT: okay using 竜 instead of 龍 will cause problems in most characters, but you should have different stories for them anyways.
Edited: 2016-11-16, 6:26 pm
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