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Long-time Supermemo User - Questions?

#1
Hi, I've been knocking this web site up for stories for quite some time now, and I've never really spent the time to check out the forums. After reading a few posts on flashcard programs, I felt compelled to let everybody know of my experience in retaining vocab and kanji using Supermemo. In addition to Japanese, I have been inputting Chinese (Knowing the kanji REALLY helps with learning vocabulary). I also use Supermemo to remember stuff I'm learning in various online courses.

I don't want to sound like I'm a living infomercial for Supermemo, but I can safely say that almost everything I've put into Supermemo I have remembered. It has taken much time, frustration and patience to get to this point (I quit using Supermemo and then started back up again twice), but after the smoke clears away I've found that the time invested was well spent. And while nothing can substitute for reading actual books, watching TV, talking with Japanese people, etc., as a tool for REMEMBERING what I've learned, Supermemo has proved to be an invaluable tool for me.

I'm not trying to say "Supermemo is better," or "I use Supermemo, therefore I am better than you." I've simply used this program for the past two years (And I foresee myself using it until I die), and I'm very, VERY happy with the results. If you have any questions about using Supermemo to learn Japanese, or questions about Supermemo in general, feel free to ask. Smile
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#2
I for one wouldn't mind seeing a comparison between supermemo and other SRS programs on this forum, if anyone would be able to.
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#3
A bit off topic but wired published an article on supermemo's creator

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/maga...ff_wozniak
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#4
I think it's not really supermemo thats so great, so much as just the idea of Spaced Repetition that it employs. Its rather similar to the review here on this site. There are also other programs that function in a similar manner as supermemo, such as Anki. I believe supermemo did come up with the algorithms and stuff first, and then other tools copied them, so I guess they get some credit for that.
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#5
Supermemo is archaic, clunky, and difficult to use. Considering that it's a commercial product I certainly expected more when I bought it a couple of years ago. Now, as an SRS, it certainly gets the job done but the documentation and UI were a mess.

When I found out about mnemosyne, I quickly switched over. It worked well but I think we are finally in the golden era of SRS with Anki. It has everything you would expect in today's interconnected world. Cell phone support, an awesome syncing system, image/audio support, etc, etc.

And it's easy to use. I believe it supports importing Supermemo files (I may be mistaken) so those of you still using SM should definitely give it a try.
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#6
It would take a long time to compare the results from Supermemo with someone using a different program if the entire process were not all documented and the test itself conducted in the manner of a scientific experiment (There are so many variables that must be accounted for). I doubt the creator of Supermemo will ever do such a test, since if such manpower exists I would imagine he would apply it in refining the existing algorithm.

My concern happens to be the algorithm powering the program rather than a program's appearance or relative ease of use. Although I know none of the nuts-and-bolts of how Supermemo works (The same goes with Anki, mnemosyne, etc.), nor I can I give you a mathematical formula for why Supermemo does what it does, what I DO know that Supermemo has been in development longer than other existing programs, and over the past two years I have put more than 22,000 flashcards in Supermemo, my rate of retention is over 90%, and I've passed the JLPT level 2 without being involved in any school or homestay-programs in Japan. Yes, Supermemo was difficult to get the hang of. It doesn't look pretty, it's many options were very confusing and text formatting was a pain at first. But once I got beyond those issues, to me it was like a film of dust over a diamond; the troubles were minor in comparison with what I was getting out of it. Again, I'm not trying to bash other programs that more-or-less claim do the same thing. There are other programs that are easier to use, have better Asian-language support, etc., I'm just very happy with the results I've got and want to share that with others, as it might encourage others to commit to an effective program of study, regardless of what program they use to achieve it (Like the proverb goes "If you want to know what's down the path, ask someone that's walked it," or something to that effect). It's just annoying to me when others make baseless remarks about how something is clearly good or bad, and hence I feel obligated to answer such an accusation.

I'm not trying to sound snobbish (really), but to those that do use a flashcard system: how many flashcards to you have in your database?
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#7
It's a mere suggestion but would you be able to tell us about the so-called path you have walked to attain the skills to pass JLPT2? This would both add to your defense of Supermemo as it would give another alternative general learning strategy for Japanese studies. Of the latter there aren't too many around I'm afraid, and thus it is always interesting to read about long-term learning strategies in detail.
Edited: 2008-04-22, 4:21 pm
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#8
strawberry SRS = raspberry SRS = blueberry SRS = gooseberry SRS.

Well okay, gooseberries are tart and taste horrible, but let's not have a "my SRS is better than your SRS debate". Spaced repetition gives great results in all flavors.
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#9
LittleFishChan Wrote:I'm not trying to sound snobbish (really), but to those that do use a flashcard system: how many flashcards to you have in your database?
14 inches... at least Wink
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#10
I knew that was a loaded statement, Floatingweed5. Tongue

I'm glad you asked, roderik! To pass JLPT 2q what I did was make flashcards for each vocabulary word that appeared in JLPT 2q(There's lists everywhere), flashcards for each kanji (Writing and reading), and flashcards that reinforced grammar concepts. Most vocabulary words have more than one flashcard so the word can be seen in different contexts, and even more flashcards are made to reinforce grammar concepts. Again, you learn FIRST. Once you've grasped that concept, THEN you can recall it using 'program x.'

Here is an example:
Q: どういう triggered, caused でそんな考えを思い付いたの?
A: どういうきっかけでそんな考えを思い付いたの? How did you come up with an idea like that?

I've tried to make Japanese descriptions for words I want to remember (So I'm reading the whole thing in Japanese), but due to the bulk of vocabulary that I want to learn, it's easier for me to simply type the word I want to remember in English.

For a grammar point:
Q: 店はたたまれ、それ (and that was it, nothin' else) だった。
A: 店はたたまれ、それっきりだった。 The store closed down for good.

The point is that you remember words in context so you can use them when the opportunity arises. This works great with idioms (I typed this whole book into Supermemo, actually. It took about two weeks: http://www.amazon.com/Kodanshas-Dictiona...369&sr=8-2 ). Some words don't require a great deal of context compared to others, depending on how flexible the word can be. Some words can be used in a more abstract sense in addition to their "normal" function, while others are confined to their basic use in general. Take "子." While it can mean "child" it's use extends a lot further than that. So I would try to make an example sentence for each major different usage. But some words, such as "内閣閣僚 cabinet member" cannot be used very much outside it's basic meaning. But the more I did this, I found that when an opportunity came up to use a word/idiom that I had learned, I was able to use it without much thought and in the proper context, usually much to the surprise of the person I was speaking to.

Kanji are simply "Keyword -> Character & Reading." If I have problem with a character's reading, I create another flashcard "Character -> Reading."
Edited: 2008-04-22, 5:15 pm
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#11
LittleFishChan Wrote:I knew that was a loaded statement, Floatingweed5. Tongue
I'm glad you took my cheeky comment in good spirit!

It's actually very interesting to find out how other people format the prompt and answer on their cards. There are a lot of good examples on the Antimoon site (which I regularly promise myself I will experiment with), but at the moment I've chosen to do just basic passive reading, going from kanji sentence to kana (A third card side shows the english translation, but this is only for use in emergency).

For me this is an enjoyable and stress-free way to study, a bit like reading a book (albeit a book with a very disjointed plot). This is important because my active study time is very limited, and I'm often very tired. Also, this method allows me to work through cards at a faster rate than when I was experimenting with active recall, allowing me to process larger quantities of information and add new content faster (my main focus - due to my poor vocabulary).

This certainly wouldn't be a good strategy for everyone (hell, even Khatzumoto is going kana to kanji these days), but for me, in my current circumstances, it gives a great return on effort.
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#12
Everybody has a certain style of learning that fits their circumstances. If I lived in Japan I would study Japanese in a VERY different way than I do right now. If I didn't use RtK to learn the kanji I would be remembering words in a VERY different way. If I never stuck with Supermemo I would be studying in a very different way also. But it's those various tools, methods, etc. that one finds on their journey of learning that makes each journey different for each person. And at this stage in my journey of learning Japanese, the one invaluable tool that I always have fallen back on is Supermemo. Yours might be a book, another computer program, a rad Nintendo DS game, etc. But the point is you're actually DOING something, which is awesome.

Like Stephen Wright said, "You don't exist, you're born, and then you die and don't exist again. So life is just a break from not existing." You need to have fun and find meaning in what little window of time you have before you stop existing again. If you want to learn Japanese, or paint, or play a musical instrument, whatever it is, it's important to DO IT! Find something that helps you accomplish what you want, so you can tell jokes to your friends, paint a picture, or play a song.
Supermemo helps me to learn languages so I can talk to people and enjoy a meaningful and rewarding conversations. If you can achieve the same thing through another means, by all means pursue the same goal with tenacity! It's certainly better than the man that spends all his time learning but doesn't share what he's learned with anybody. Maybe that's the point I'm trying to get at, like another cool Chinese proverb states, "Be not afraid of going slowly, be afraid only of standing still."
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#13
Again with the baseless "This program is better than that program." Disappointing to see. Sad
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#14
I think it is good that the downsides compared to other SRS programs have been made clear. However, I also think this thread changing into a pro-con Supermemo thread is precisely what LittleFishChan wanted to avoid. LittleFishChan just wanted to make an attempt to inform people about using Supermemo / using an SRS program to learn Japanese in general (If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong) which is something worthy of an applause.

As far as the latter is concerned, the more you would be willing to share with us the merrier. I already found your examples quite detailed and helpful. Also the link to the book on Amazon.com was quite great, I mean, who wouldn't want to be able to baffle Japanese people by stepping off the plane, arriving in Japan for the first time and saying things like: "My god, after being hit by that explosion this factory looks like a scene from Dante's Inferno Tongue. Or: A lot of people don't like the president from that company because he's such a slavedriver. Not your standard vocabulary and definitely fun to throw randomly into conversations Big Grin.
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#15
Based on your experience, you like other programs better than Supermemo. That's cool, there's nothing wrong with that, but one shouldn't entirely dismiss something simply because they had a hard time working with it. Despite it's hurdles, a large number of people use SM just fine, many having remembered tens (even hundreds) of thousands of flashcards with it. Heck, right now I'm at 22,679 (Just finished my morning review). (I didn't catch how many flashcards you've remembered, would you mind enlightening us?)

"Anki and menmosyne use the exact same algorithms." Are you saying that Anki and menmosyne use the same algorithms as the present version of Supermemo? Because they do not. Tongue
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#16
roderik Wrote:I think it is good that the downsides compared to other SRS programs have been made clear. However, I also think this thread changing into a pro-con Supermemo thread is precisely what LittleFishChan wanted to avoid. LittleFishChan just wanted to make an attempt to inform people about using Supermemo / using an SRS program to learn Japanese in general (If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong)
Yay, that's it! Thanks Big Grin

If you apply yourself to using an SRS program the results are pretty cool depending on what you put into it. I've still got that entire book on my computer (Although it's filled with typos, both in English and Japanese). Sometimes I've used idioms and the Japanese person I was speaking to said "I've never heard that before, we don't use that phrase." That is sometimes disappointing to think "I spent time learning that but now I can't use it." But you can still learn something interesting and it provides cultural insight.

For example, "蟻の一穴." The meaning (From what I can recall) is that there was a large building project that was being taken on, but because of one hole from a single ant the entire building project was destroyed. The meaning of 蟻の一穴 is supposed to be "never overlook even the small thing, because it could easily become the 蟻の一穴." It's very interesting, but when I mentioned it in conversation I was told that it isn't used (The woman I spoke with actually said that "I've never heard of it before").

But that's a risk you have to be willing to take when you study a bulk of phrases/vocabulary. Some will be useful, some will not.
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#17
I wouldn't mind having more info about the different algorithms these various programs use, after all it is these algorithms which make sure we have the highest rate of retention possible.

<edit> And thank you for the further examples you have posted.
Edited: 2008-04-23, 7:16 am
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#18
LittleFishChan Wrote:For example, "蟻の一穴." The meaning (From what I can recall) is that there was a large building project that was being taken on, but because of one hole from a single ant the entire building project was destroyed. The meaning of 蟻の一穴 is supposed to be "never overlook even the small thing, because it could easily become the 蟻の一穴." It's very interesting, but when I mentioned it in conversation I was told that it isn't used (The woman I spoke with actually said that "I've never heard of it before").
I love this ant story. Was this explained in the idiom book from above?
As a kid I would always hear the expression "a stitch in time, saves nine". When I first said it to my wife, however, she had no idea what I was talking about. I wonder if it might be the same sort of thing with the woman you mentioned the ant thing to? By the way, what is the reading of 蟻の一穴? I want to ask around about it...
(Sorry if this is off topic)
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#19
This thread made me curious about the algorithms used. It would be nice to see how an Anki "profile" would differ from the supermemo "profile" when the same answers are given. As for me I am still using a program called Pauker (and of course kanji.koohii) though I am in the process of switching to Anki. I think there are people around with 20.000+ anki entries. Of course Anki has only been around for a year or so, so it is not fair to compare your 20000+ with the average Anki user, assuming that "long-time" means more than a year or two Wink
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#20
LittleFishChan,

A couple of us in this thread have used SM. We had no choice back in the day. SM2004 was pretty much the only SRS in town. However, when these newer programs started popping up we at least gave them a try and guess what? They worked better for us and we've moved from SM.

On the other hand, you keep using your numbers to back up your claims. We already know that SM works! The newer programs use SM's algorithms, lol. You don't have to prove that SM works to this group. However, you haven't tried the other programs and honestly the improvements are well worth at least checking out. No one is claiming SM doesn't work.

Please don't take this post the wrong way. I'm not attacking you or SM (well, maybe SM a little hehe).
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#21
laner36 Wrote:By the way, what is the reading of 蟻の一穴?
ありのいっけつ。

There are a few variants of the complete expression. One is: 千丈の堤も蟻の一穴 (せんじょうのつつみもありのいっけつ.)
I asked one Japanese person if she knew the the expression. She didn't.

Source is 韓非子 = Kanpishi = Han Fei Tzu (a Chinese philosopher who was living around 2,200 years ago).
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#22
Supermemo was the first SRS that I've used and to this day it's the only SRS that I've used over a longer period of time. Yes, Supermemo is clunky and difficult to use, but nevertheless a very effective SRS. It literally took me days to really get what this programm is capable of (@tokyostyle: SM has more than two fields. You can define your own templates, add more fields and even generate multiple choice tests. I have yet to play around with these functions.)

I love trying out new things, so I installed Anki simply because everybody else seems to love it. And it may in fact be the best SRS for Japanese. Then Trinity came along, and decided to try it out. Hm, another excellent SRS for Japanese. Which makes things rather difficult for me. I like all three SRS for different reasons. And I'm still using all three regularly!
I use Anki to study most of my Japanese these days. I use to Supermemo to study just anything in general (and I love the "incremental reading" feature. that alone is reason enough for me to use Supermemo). I've quite a few Japanese articles and texts queued for incremental reading. Essays, blog entries or Tae Kim's blog. Japanese texts that I haven't read in awhile are scheduled by Supermemo for future reviews (I don't use everything for sentence mining, SM just reminds me that there are texts that I've read or wanted to read. Or had planned to use for sentence mining.) Tae Kim's blog entries are used to study grammar.
Trinity is still in alpha stage and haven't used it seriously yet. Still playing around. And I like it a lot. Might consider moving from Anki to Trinity. Seriously, three SRS is just too much. I use Supermemo for everything else, so I actually considered to stop using Anki. I would miss a few features from Anki, but I know from experiece that Supermemo works for me. And contrary to what most people think, I never felt that the algorithm implemented in SM06 is inferior to other algorithms. It feels different, but as I said, it works for me. No facts here, sorry. Just what I feel. (and the scheduling algorithm in Anki feels different to SM for me. Can't judge which one is better, I have to use Anki long enough to make up my mind. And maybe it really doesn't matter. )

Just had to defend SM here (seeing how everybody seems to hate SM). It's a great tool and it has worked for people for around twenty years. Anki is great, so I'm pretty sure that a few years from now we will have similar stories from Anki users, so I don't see the need to attack other SRS as long as someone can really claim to prove the superiority of one over the other.
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#23
I didn't want to stray far off of using SM to learn languages. Oh well. (This one's long...)

"It has become pretty clear over the years that the only reason these changes have been introduced is to convince people to pay for upgrades." I don't think I would go as far as attributing motives to the creators of Supermemo, people you've never met.

"Although it might be academically interesting to figure out the best way to retain obscure facts, it isn't very useful for language acquisition. The best way is to actually use the language itself." It sounds like you're backpedeling a bit. The purpose of spaced-repetition learning is to RETAIN, not to LEARN. LEARNING (Especially learning a language) takes place first, and spaced-repetitions are simply to "hold" that learned knowledge in place (Like a nail holds up a picture. You paint the picture first, then "nail" it in place). The ability to RETAIN learned information can be useful not only for language study, but theoretically any aspect of life that involves retention of learned knowledge. I should also probably mention that I've been using Supermemo for ALL of my general educational needs. I study theology and other religions a great deal, and I'm spending some time reviewing stuff I learned (Or should have learned) at school in addition to Chinese and Japanese.

Here's the process I went through that led to what I'm doing today: Once I "got" the concept of spaced repetition, I wanted to implement such a program of study into every aspect of my life that I could. But first I had to start with Japanese, the language I wanted so desperately to learn. I tried quite a few pieces of flashcard software before I settled on Supermemo. The only one I remember vividly was "StackZ," although I used many others. I don't think Anki or memosyne existed at the time. Anyway, in using the various flashcard software I went so far as to have a calender, and as I reviewed words (Actually files that had a set of Japanese words in them, usually about 10-15), I would reschedule them for a later time. First a few days later, then a week, then a few weeks, etc. This quickly became burdensome as I came to have too many files to manage ("Today I must review file 03, 15, 36 and 75." That gets cumbersome rather quickly.) In the end I would ditch the system, and move onto another. At one point I created literally thousands of paper flashcards and had different boxes and stacks, each which coorisponded to a level and sub-level of that particular group or stack. Depending on the level/sub-level of the cards I would review them at different intervals. Again, once my cards went beyond two thousand or so I collapsed under the burden. Then I would move onto something else.

When I found Supermemo I thought "This might be what I want, but I have to KNOW that it can take WHATEVER amount of material I throw at it." Having gotten so used to scheduling and rescheduling when to review stuff, if a program could relieve me of that long-term burden that would be heaven. So as a test I loaded Supermemo down with a bunch of vocabulary words, and although as a result I had to review a lot of material I still retained the words. After a few weeks I realized "Holy crap, this is legit." So I started adding more vocabulary, phrases, and eventually moved onto non-Japanese material. Soon if I came across information that I deemed important enough to remember, be it through my own personal notes, books I had read, or stuff I read online, I began to gradually put that information into Supermemo. And I kept remembering it. No matter what I threw at it, if I structured the flashcard correctly I was able to recall any piece of information I had put into the program.

So in my mind I began to think of this as not only being a nifty computer tool but as ultimately my key to near-absolute enhanced knowledge retention. Once I began thinking along those lines my lifestyle gradually adjusted in order to let Supermemo become a daily part of my life. It was almost like hiring a really good employee. If an employee is really talented at something, the employer will assign jobs to that employee that falls within the employee's realm of specialty. If the employee proved reliable it would make work go very smooth and more could be accomplished in a shorter period of time. After a while the employer would not fret over assigning jobs to the employee, because the he/she knows that the employee is good at their job. Such is my relationship with Supermemo. The more I used it the more reliable it became, thus I felt more comfortable in using it to remember other stuff. I just let it do it's job and don't worry about it. If I forget it, Supermemo will correct me and adjust the algorithm as needed. (I forgot to mention, based on your input, Supermemo adjusts it's algorithm to suit your learning style. Thus, hard information is treated differently than easy information. But in order for the algorithms to get "in sync" with your rate of forgetting, one must spend time using Supermemo, allowing it to more less "become calibrated" with you).

So at this point in my life I use Supermemo for many, MANY things that fall outside of the realm of language study. But if the principle of spaced repetition is legit, it can be (And should be, imo) used in many other fields of knowledge if such a system of study can be implemented (Such a system could be impractical for others). And until Supermemo utterly fails me (Like so many other programs/systems have in the past), I'm going to keep using it better my language ability and my general knowledge of the world around me. Again, I don't know the nuts-and-bolts of the algorithms working in Supermemo's background, but I know that they are flexible enough to allow me to remember any piece of information I want: vocabulary words, scientific, religious and psychological concepts, historical events, and so on. Heck, I know someone that is using it to remember word combinations in Scrabble.
So although other programs such as Anki or memosyne might give you the same results as Supermemo does when it comes to learning languages, I doubt they were made for the wide-scale implementation that I have come to look for in an SRS. That's not to say they're bad programs, but what I'm using works, and until I stops working I'm going to keep using it.

"Succinctly, there is no proof that Supermemo is better at retention than other programs. Currently all of the evidence is purely empirical." Sweet. Let's just leave it at that.

"The newer programs use SM's algorithms, lol. You don't have to prove that SM works to this group." If I'm not mistaken, the core algorithm for Supermemo has only changed slightly over the years. The main improvements over previous versions involve a more wide-spread use of Supermemo in other fields of learning.

"However, you haven't tried the other programs and honestly the improvements are well worth at least checking out." I have no doubt for learning Japanese and other Asian languages many other programs work great, and they are likely MUCH easier to deal with than Supermemo. But considering how committed and satisfied I am with Supermemo right now, I see no need to switch to something else. If Supermemo ever stops fulfilling my needs, I'll be the first to download a different program.

"Please don't take this post the wrong way. I'm not attacking you or SM (well, maybe SM a little hehe)." No, I understand. It's gasoline just waiting to be set aflame by a flame war. Smile

Yeah, the pronunciation is "ari no ikketsu."
Edited: 2008-04-23, 5:19 pm
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#24
LittleFishChan Wrote:I have no doubt for learning Japanese and other Asian languages many other programs work great, and they are likely MUCH easier to deal with than Supermemo. But considering how committed and satisfied I am with Supermemo right now, I see no need to switch to something else. If Supermemo ever stops fulfilling my needs, I'll be the first to download a different program.
I'm not trying to convince you. You have a great system in place that is producing results which is awesome. However, for people who are just now entertaining the idea of using a SRS, I would hope they openly evaluate all the options that are available.

I still by stand by what I said earlier. SM is clunkly, archaic, and difficult to use.
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#25
"I still by stand by what I said earlier. SM is clunkly, archaic, and difficult to use." And I don't disagree with you. The problems you speak of are reasons why most stop using SM, so such problems clearly exist.
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