(2016-05-26, 4:16 pm)CureDolly Wrote: For me that is a good reason to have encountered the word live before learning it in Anki; so that it enters my consciousness as a live word with associations rather than a list-word and Anki then consolidates that.

I for sure agree with this.  Having that scene or moment to fall back on as I review helps my retention a lot.  That and using images are the only reasons I can actually do production cards.  

Also I assumed you dropped Anki usage after the early stage, my mistake on that.

(2016-05-26, 4:39 pm)yogert909 Wrote:

(2016-05-26, 4:16 pm)CureDolly Wrote: Thinking about it, I think one part of why I don't like pre-learning myself is that very often my first association with a word sticks in my mind, even a long time later. "Ah that was the word X character said on Y occasion".

That makes sense. I am usually learning on anki mobile while out on a lunch break or walking somewhere, so locations are often associated with words.  I can still remember where I was when I learned a word after more than a year.  I should figure out how to exploit this better.  

My problem with adding as I go is that it's not a technique that lends itself to studying on a 4" screen.  Also, I've read a bit using wakaru(mobile pop-up dictionary) but at my level about 50% of the words require a lookup, so it kind of kills my flow/enjoyment.  As you say, it's a bit of a slog.  When the level of look-ups goes down a bit, adding as I go will probably be much more tenable.

The early stage is a slog either way. It really depends which kind of slog you choose. For me hacking through J-subbed anime, learning on the fly was the best way forward. I don't know if I learned faster that way, but it made it more interesting to me and that is a large part of the battle in those difficult early days.

Other people say looking up words every half-minute or so (and it is that bad at first) kills interest for them, and I can understand that point of view too.

Words are naturally associative. Associating them with where you were when you studied them serves a mnemonic function (actually this was used systematically in early Western mnemonic techniques). However in the case of language, associating words with an instance of their actual usage has more-than-mnemonic value because it is an important step toward learning the word's "weight" and nuance and what kind of person uses it under what circumstance. Of course you need to pile up more encounters before you really know the word (as opposed to knowing its dictionary definition), but that first encounter makes the platform for the process to build on.

I do mainly use a mobile device for reviewing Anki, but I add words from my computer. As I watch anime and other media on the computer, adding on the fly is easy. For reading I try to keep away from the computer (I am a look-up fanatic and I try to keep my reading as research-free as possible). Where necessary I look up words on the tablet and add them to Anki later.

@Cracky
You are probably sensing that my attitude to Anki is ambiguous! I would rather use it less than I do. I have a sempai who is much better at learning words purely organically than I am and I would like to be more like that. However Anki's usefulness at nailing words into place is something I feel I still need to stop too many words slipping through my fingers.

Having said that, my experience is that in many cases Anki is not sufficient for long-term memory. As the reviews get pushed back a year or more, one needs to have some real encounters or the word fades away. However one might also argue that if one hasn't encountered a word in two years, one doesn't really need it at this stage. One can always use the dictionary.

(2016-05-26, 5:51 pm)CureDolly Wrote: Words are naturally associative. Associating them with where you were when you studied them serves a mnemonic function (actually this was used systematically in early Western mnemonic techniques). However in the case of language, associating words with an instance of their actual usage has more-than-mnemonic value because it is an important step toward learning the word's "weight" and nuance and what kind of person uses it under what circumstance. Of course you need to pile up more encounters before you really know the word (as opposed to knowing its dictionary definition), but that first encounter makes the platform for the process to build on

You've made some great points. Actually I'm usually a figure things out on the fly kind of person, so I think I might give it another try adding cards as I go. Unfortunately, I am almost never at my home computer so it's difficult to do as you do. It'll have to be strictly a mobile solution. Wakaru works pretty good, but I'll have to frequently export the words into anki. I'd love to make it work though.

If you're mostly mobile but sometimes at a home computer, one thing I was doing for awhile is adding words to my 'frequents' or 'favorites' or whatever list in whatever dictionary app I was using at the time. Then when I *was* at my computer for a bit, I would add words to Anki from that, removing them from the list as I went. That was close enough to adding words 'on the fly' for me, but it did require an hour at the computer once or twice a week.

These days I really only do anything in Japanese except when I'm at home anyway, but at the time it was pretty good.

(2016-05-26, 7:56 pm)yogert909 Wrote:

(2016-05-26, 5:51 pm)CureDolly Wrote: Words are naturally associative. Associating them with where you were when you studied them serves a mnemonic function (actually this was used systematically in early Western mnemonic techniques). However in the case of language, associating words with an instance of their actual usage has more-than-mnemonic value because it is an important step toward learning the word's "weight" and nuance and what kind of person uses it under what circumstance. Of course you need to pile up more encounters before you really know the word (as opposed to knowing its dictionary definition), but that first encounter makes the platform for the process to build on

You've made some great points.  Actually I'm usually a figure things out on the fly kind of person, so I think I might give it another try adding cards as I go.  Unfortunately, I am almost never at my home computer so it's difficult to do as you do.  It'll have to be strictly a mobile solution.  Wakaru works pretty good, but I'll have to frequently export the words into anki.  I'd love to make it work though.

Another option is to use imiwa? App's save list feature and then you can instantly import to another SRS app called Kanjiflow. I had done this method while I still had an iPhone (and wasn't willing to buy the Anki app). Then you can do what SomeCallMeChris suggested with that same list and add to Anki later. Though it might seem redundant using another SRS, at least you have the option to review new material on mobile right away without having to depend on a computer in the mean time. Especially if one doesn't have too much time tweeking Anki. Hope this helps.

(2016-05-26, 9:03 pm)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: If you're mostly mobile but sometimes at a home computer, one thing I was doing for awhile is adding words to my 'frequents' or 'favorites' or whatever list in whatever dictionary app I was using at the time. Then when I *was* at my computer for a bit, I would add words to Anki from that, removing them from the list as I went. That was close enough to adding words 'on the fly' for me, but it did require an hour at the computer once or twice a week.

This is kind of what I do too, but with screenshots from my tablet.  I have syncing set up so I just delete them after I add a batch of them to Anki.

I'd just like to thank everyone for some really helpful ideas and concepts.

Seems like it might be more frustrating than fun to play this game in japanese at this time.
Refering to easier, turn based games or material I have already played or watched in English makes sense.

So does doing easier reviews, focussed learning periods followed by longer intervals of only immersing, prelearning vocab or adding it on the fly if it's not too many and so on.

I will try and do a 30 day challenge of learning japanese. For 30 days, I want to dedicate at least 3 hours a day for japanese. 2 2 hours active study with ANKI and 1 hour or more of immersion.

I hope that after this month I will see at least some results and have a feeling if it's a good return on investment to spend so much time learning japanese.

I am really interested in japanese, I live in Japan for almost a year now and it would be awesome to learn it. However I am also in my mid thirties and am doing a full-time job, so I need to be clear about my priorities and I don't want to do waste any time anymore and do things that don't have a good return on investment.

But many of you say that the investment was worth it, that is really positive and motivational.

Personally, I feel that video games are not easy to play unless your Japanese is good enough.
Otherwise, gameplay grinds to a halt as you painstankingly translate each kanji, word, and sentence.

Also, there is the time pressure to progress in the game, but your lack of vocabulary is slowing you down.
If you're playing on a console (i.e. not an emulator), you often can't save anything until you reach a save point.

With manga, light novels, or books, there is significantly less time pressure.
You can go at your own pace and pick up right where you left off.

If you have an Amazon Kindle and read Japanese books, there is a built in dictionary with English and Japanese definitions.
So if there are books or light novels based on anime or RPGs, that could be another option.

Here is a Youtube video about reading Japanese books on the Kindle:

Another option is to download Japanese subtitles for anime and study them.
I wrote a Python script to take a text file and list all the RTK1 and RTK3 kanji in that file.

I don't know if they exist, but if it is possible to download all the text for RPGs, you can
figure out all the kanji that appear in the RPG.

Anyway, don't get discouraged at all.
If you have no problem learning Japanese via RPGs, go ahead and have lots of fun.

(2016-06-03, 8:42 pm)chamcham Wrote: I don't know if they exist, but if it is possible to download all the text for RPGs, you can
figure out all the kanji that appear in the RPG.

If someone wanted to go through the trouble, you should be able to rip the text from a game or any other program using methods like this.  You could then use your favorite dictionary or translation service to create flashcards or parallel scripts for the game.

I had tried to learn ROM hacking in the past when I wanted to play Shining Force Feather. As someone with no programming experience it was a pain to read and I gave up lol

A lot of games have furigana (eg. Dragon Quest, Professor Layton) so kanji shouldn't be a problem.

Also turn-based games like the ones just mentioned do not apply time pressure (just remember not to panic. Nothing happens till you take your turn!)

Save points can be annoying but with a DS/3DS you only have to shut the machine to put it into sleep mode.

However I do agree that games are difficult to start with. My feeling is that Japanese subtitled anime is an easier place to start "learning on the job".

Having said that, I am sure many people would have told me that plowing my way through all-Japanese anime as early as I did was crazy. But I am VERY glad I did it. In the end, if you are persistent enough, doing what you really want to do is often the best method! Motivation is more than half the battle.

PS - It may be an obvious tip, but if you want to find out if a game has furigana before you buy it, watch a Japanese let's play (実況プレイ) on YouTube.

(2016-06-03, 9:10 pm)CureDolly Wrote: A lot of games have furigana (eg. Dragon Quest, Professor Layton) so kanji shouldn't be a problem.

Mostly games by Level 5 or Nintendo and mostly on the 3DS.  Outside of that there are a couple more but not a lot: Wild Arms 3-5 are the only ones I can think of that aren't on a Nintendo console and/or made by Level 5.

If it's games, I highly recommend some older fantasy titles like Final Fantasy (my favorites being IV and V; IV is a lot more story driven than V though). I definitely would not, 100%, start with something like (Shin) Megami Tensei games; the language in them is much more difficult (from the ones I've tried playing in Japanese) than most typical medieval fantasy games.

If emulating older games scratches at your moral fiber too much, then go for a handheld title, like some others have mentioned; they're usually easier to find, and you can get rereleased versions of older games on them. Also, there are far fewer auto-playing events in handhelds (though that's changing recently). If you like the Pokemon series, the last couple generations offer two versions of their scripts, one all kana, one with kanji (still not very much, but it _is_ for kids...).
Spirit Tracks offers a really useful 'tap for furigana' feature... too bad the game isn't a bit better (I'm really wanting a remake of the GBC Zelda games with the planned third one added in, but that's beside the point).

And Golden Sun is a superior RPG experience; the third game isn't as good as the first two by a long shot, but it's still fun. I haven't looked at the Japanese versions, but it doesn't seem like it'd be confusing in Japanese for any reason other than a slight lack in dialogue.

And I didn't find Tales of Phantasia too difficult in Japanese (I played the GBA version, but apparently there's a PS2 version with voiced story scenes); it's a fun change from the 'mash the A (or O) button over and over' gameplay. The story is good too.

I've been really into the Summon Night games recently (only played the first and fourth main games, and the GBA spinoffs so far); all that I've played has been wonderful fun. Probably not the best game series to start with, since there are choices that determine how certain things will go (the MC and their stats (simple questions), whether you'll encounter or recruit other characters, and other things that I haven't quite figured out yet); I can't say that all of these choices are particularly important to what happens overall, but choices I can't understand make games less fun for me (took me forever to actually play the first one after I got it, because I couldn't make one of the first choices after the story starts). Most of them have been re-released on the PSP (excluding the newest ones, of course), so it's really easy to get them.

As for some PS2 games: the Kingdom Hearts games (the properly numbered ones, CoM wasn't as tolerable on PS2 as it was on GBA) are really fun, but they make use of cutscenes quite a bit, so if that's too fast, then they probably won't be quite so fun. (Personal note: it's weird as hell hearing Disney characters speak in Japanese, and the same for most everyone else in English; there's no winning, so it might just be more enjoyable to pick the ones that sound least weird to you instead).

And, um, there's also the Ar Tonelico games... Not much of a common taste, these games (and even I'll say that the PS3 one sucks), but if you can like them, they're actually pretty fun games, but, um, maybe don't play them with anyone else around... And wear headphones... I might be exaggerating, but they're a couple of the games that I just don't tell people in real life that I've played.
Anyway, all of the dialogue is in text boxes (IIRC, most, if not), and events are handled with VN style text boxes. The combat system is rhythm based on the defensive, and based on simple button inputs on the offensive, which is actually quite fun most of the time.
It's been a while since I played these last (before I knew much Japanese, though I did undub them...), so I can't remember a lot of specifics about how easy they would be to read (not that I've played them in Japanese yet), nor how much was voiced.

And for a quick not-RPG, the Professor Layton games are pretty fun, and though the puzzles don't always require instruction to solve, it can be a decent exercise in understand instructions and solving puzzles (duh) in Japanese.

Ultimately, VNs (for PC) and web novels are a lot easier to get into, as far as looking things up, but sometimes you want to play games, and you might as well play them in Japanese if you're feeling up to it.

Does anyone know any website with full modern games scripts in japanese?

I've been looking for Dark Souls script but I couldn't find any. The only way to quickly capture the sentences was to make a screenshot and use Kanjitomo.

I find doing kanji and the language itself fun.

(2016-06-04, 7:47 am)Sztermel Wrote: Does anyone know any website with full modern games scripts in japanese?

I've been looking for Dark Souls script but I couldn't find any. The only way to quickly capture the sentences was to make a screenshot and use Kanjitomo.

There's a decent amount of RPGs that are fan translated into Japanese and you can usually find the spreadsheet they used to translate it along with the patch.  Just google for the game name and 日本語化.

(2016-06-03, 8:42 pm)chamcham Wrote: Another option is to download Japanese subtitles for anime and study them.
I wrote a Python script to take a text file and list all the RTK1 and RTK3 kanji in that file.

Hello chamcham! I wanted to know more about this Python script. If it's possible, can you please provide more info about it? Thanks

Although I find playing something in Japanese to be really tedious now, looking at a screen of a Japanese game always gives me an urge to practice my Japanese right that second. So I find it can give motivation.

Also, I'm really looking forward to learning Japanese via Yotsubato, Azumanga, and Totoro when I finish Assimil and RTK!

(2016-06-04, 8:57 pm)RawrPk Wrote:

(2016-06-03, 8:42 pm)chamcham Wrote: Another option is to download Japanese subtitles for anime and study them.
I wrote a Python script to take a text file and list all the RTK1 and RTK3 kanji in that file.

Hello chamcham! I wanted to know more about this Python script. If it's possible, can you please provide more info about it? Thanks

I have a python script that takes a list of words and adds RTK keywords for the kanji in each word.  PM me if that would be helpful for anyone.