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[Kanji Koohii] When I review the learned deck, failed ones should be cleared out

#1
I've countless of times ended up with many several hundred (or thousands) of cards to review.
Going back to normal is a slow process but if you're constant at it, you eventually achieve it. Of course you can't possible review them all at once.
My approach is to have always between 20~30 learned cards by the end of the day. The following morning I first review my due cards and after my learned ones (with the Review Learned in the study area).

Here something very annoying happens, because after finished reviewing the learned deck, and before starting to relearn my failed kanjis, I have to press the red "Clear" link next to "Review Learned" button.

Only after this, I can start now to study the failed kanjis from both, Due deck and Learned deck. I continue relearning until I reach my target of 20~30 learned cards again.

If I don't Clear the failed kanjis before, I don't see them in the study area ready to relearn them again!. There are other issues, for example If I exit the Review Learned area and later go back, the failed cards appear yet again.

IMHO the expected behaviour, when you review the learned deck, is that failed kanjis should be cleared out of it's "Learned" condition.

It looks natural to me that if I review a Learned card and I Fail it, I'll have to learn it again!.

I suffered this issue so many times, that I finally decided to request and improvement if possible.
Edited: 2017-01-31, 7:58 am by ファブリス
#2
Yuta73 Wrote:IMHO the expected behaviour, when you review the learned deck, is that failed kanjis should be cleared out of it's "Learned" condition.

Well it is confusing I agree that a failed card does not appear in the list in the sidebar, while it is also in the "Relearn" pile.

On the other hand, I think it makes sense for failed reviews to stay there. The idea is you can click again "Review". Some people like to review multiple passes. If you don't want to review the "learned" pile more than once, then you can Clear it, to go through the "learn" step again.

If I understand well a fix would be to simply show failed cards in the sidebar , regardless if they are currently in the learn pile. However clearing all reviewed (pass or fail) kanji from the learned pile would remove the flexibility for users who want to review the learned pile again.
Edited: 2016-05-13, 3:04 pm
#3
(2016-05-13, 3:03 pm)fuaburisu Wrote:
Quote:If I understand well a fix would be to simply show failed cards in the sidebar , regardless if they are currently in the learn pile. However clearing all reviewed (pass or fail) kanji from the learned pile would remove the flexibility for users who want to review the learned pile again.

Oh!. The fix you suggest is perfect!. If failed cards show up on the sidebar, is good enough.

I don't care if they are kept in the learned pile. That way, current behaviour for users who make multiple reviews of the learned pile won't be changed! (I don't understand why they do it, anyways. It feels like cheating to my mind, unless they're new cards).

Please, everybody, post support for this if you like the idea. This would be wonderful!.
JapanesePod101
#4
Oh, now I remember why it works that way.

The summary in the sidebar is designed to give you the next 10 failed kanji you might want to study, in index order.

Whenever you "learn" a kanji, it will automatically skip to the next one in the list. In order to show the ones coming after, naturally it removest he "learned" character from that list while it sits in the learned pile. When you clear that pile, the learned characters appear again in the list.

So in other words the summary list pruposely shows the next 10 failed and unlearned characters.

Short of rethinking the whole process I'm not sure what simple solution to do.

What is the problem with clearing the list though? You're saying "ok I'm not interested in review these I just failed (the remaining learned but failed reviews) so I'll clear it to work on those again".

A workaround for the behaviour you prefer would be to open the "Detailed list" in a tab (middle click / shift click), and then use that list instead, which includes all failed cards. If you're comfortable working with tabs it's fairly efficient as you don't need to go "back", just open study page in tab, close it, repeat from another link in the list.

Quote:If I exit the Review Learned area and later go back, the failed cards appear yet again.

This should not happen if you click the "End" button. If you exit the page without ending the review then yeah you can miss approx. 5 cards, because the server exhcanges data with the Review page every 10 cards or so. Normally if you hit "back" on the browser or "forward" or load another page or close the tab an alert box should remind you about it.
Edited: 2016-05-14, 4:23 am
#5
Now that I learned that Learned cards are still in the Failed pile, I see no chance of implementing your suggested behaviour without adding an additional attribute to each card (something along the lines of LearnedButFailedAgain).

Which sends me back to my original question. If I review a Learned card and Fail it, shouldn't I have it on the study pile again?. Of course that clearing the Learned attribute will do the job, but you said some people like to review the learned pile several times.

It is still no clear to me what's the point to review the Learned pile again without first studying those just failed cards. I mean, if you failed is because the story has to be relarned or improved. But I respect the rights of those people who like it otherwise.

Do you think we might have it like an option?. Along the lines of "Always mark failed cards as unlearned".

PS: The workaround proved to be way too slow.
PS2: I always use the "Exit" button, but it doesn't work in this case. As the failed cards are kept in the Learned pile, next time I press the Review Learned button they'll show up again. This time I might remember some the failed ones, but only because of my short term memory.
#6
I agree with you that removing all cards from learned pile (whether they pass or fail, then), could be a better default.

That said it's not motivating for me to make changes that have no clear before / after outcome. To me this is a very small change in the default, which in that case I'd rather leave as is so as not to disturb existing users. It's a cost vs benefit decision personally I don't see the point.

Specifically, I don't understand how cumbersome it is to just click "Clear", before working on your failed cards again?

If you click "clear" after you are done reviewing the learned pile, the learned pile is cleared. Now you can study those again. And if you review the learned pile, it won't carry any cards from the previous test since it was cleared.

Maybe I missed something still .. in which case you may have to describe a step by step scenario in which case the "clear" link doesn't work.
Edited: 2016-05-17, 8:29 am
#7
There is now an issue on GIthub for this.

A priori the plan is to clear the learned list always after a review.

The Restudy workflow was streamlined a little bit on the staging website ( staging dot koohii dot com ) although in essence it works the same way. It just gives a more epxlicitly flow from : restudy (n) > learned (0) to learned (15) > to review.

IF you restudy cards in order then clearing the learned pile after a review works as you expected , I think.

If you restudy a non-ordered set of characters, then in that case, indeed after a review, there is no builtin way of keeping track of those cards. The only thing that comes to mind would be creating an alternate list of "recently failed cards" ,something like that. Not a terrible idea... as I thought it would be good to add "Recently visited kanji" list of some sort for navigation, both can have logic in comon and be useful.

Let's continue the discussion in the Github issue. I just tagged it "discussion" meaning it is less focused, and then I can create a actionable issues based on what comes out. (to summarize right now for the next update I 'll just clear the whole learned pile after a review).
#8
(2016-05-13, 2:02 pm)Yuta73 Wrote: If I exit the Review Learned area and later go back, the failed cards appear yet again.

Not 100% sure what you meant there, to be clear:

Live site always worked like this:

- Learned pile has a semi-permanent storage in the database, in case user loses session (php session lasts just an hour or so). Learned pile, per user, expires after 24h or so.
- Items on the learned pile are cleared when succesfully reviewed (yes/easy).
- ... on that subject, there was a bug where "Hard" answer which technically clers the card from Failed Pile to "1 review" did not remove it from Learned list, it does now (next update)

Hence after a review you're supposed to have a learned pile that you could Review again immediately, rinse and repeat. Although that is not the best way to restudy of course.

If you succesffully review a pile of 10 Learned cards, and there were say 20 failed cards in total, then indeed when coming back there would be "10 Restudy cards" since only half of them were cleared from the failed pile.
#9
(2017-01-22, 7:29 am)ファブリス Wrote: Live site always worked like this:

- Learned pile has a semi-permanent storage in the database, in case user loses session (php session lasts just an hour or so). Learned pile, per user, expires after 24h or so.

Interesting. In my years of using the site, I have not noticed this behavior - 24 hr expiration of Learned pile - until this new release.

The Learned List is a key part of my study workflow. In the past, I left it for days, when I couldn't study daily, and found the Learned List ready and waiting when I got back.

Now, I've come back, even after several hours, and the Learned List is gone. Its disappearance makes Restudy/Review quite a chore. I have to scan the list to recall which I Restudied and Learned in my last session. Then I have to go through the process of marking the Learned subset again before reviewing the Learned subset of the Restudy List.

I just followed the project and github and planned to create an Issue to discuss this topic, but came across this post. Thanks for all of your work on the new mobile version. I wish I could have participated in testing and discussion, but was away throughout the process.
#10
Are you 100% sure it disappears in less than 24h? If so [please create an issue](https://github.com/fabd/kanji-koohii/issues).

It could be a new bug related to the change to the Restudy > Learned flow (they are now one box instead of separate entriesi n the sidebar).
Edited: 2017-01-27, 4:22 am
#11
(2017-01-27, 4:20 am)ファブリス Wrote: Are you 100% sure it disappears in less than 24h? If so [please create an issue](https://github.com/fabd/kanji-koohii/issues).

It could be a new bug related to the change to the Restudy > Learned flow (they are now one box instead of separate entriesi n the sidebar).

I will set up a test this weekend and post to github.
#12
(making it clearer feedback should no longer be posted on the forum + closing post)

Issues / suggestions for Kanji Koohii are now handled on Github.

https://github.com/fabd/kanji-koohii/issues


For misc questions , if you prefer asking something before creating an issue or you're not sure it's worth creating an issue just post on Gitter. It uses the same Github account, pretty simple.

https://gitter.im/kanji-koohii/feedback


See also

https://github.com/fabd/kanji-koohii#fee...sue-system