Hi everyone

I'm new to RTK and have done the first four lessons. 

I understand that the method does not cover readings as there are many of these, they change in context etc. What I was wondering is, does the keyword relate to a common meaning of the kanji?

So the method starts out as: keyword, which triggers a story, which triggers how the kanji is written. This leads me to two concerns:

1) Will it work the other way around? (see kanji - understand meaning)
2) If the keyword is not linked to the meaning, how do we make that connection later on?

Cheers, Andrew

>does the keyword relate to a common meaning of the kanji?
some are and some arent.

>1) Will it work the other way around? (see kanji - understand meaning)
The point of RTK is for you to be able to recognize Kanji, not its meaning.
You will understand the meaning if the certain Kanji that you saw has a keyword that related to meaning.
I.G
南, 女, 木, 水 etcetera.

>2) If the keyword is not linked to the meaning, how do we make that connection later on?
When you learn vocab, start reading alot, it will somehow just imprint into your memories.
Once you see it alot the meaning will start to replace the keyword,

Hope this is helpful.

(2016-04-11, 7:03 pm)Andoryu84 Wrote: Hi everyone

I'm new to RTK and have done the first four lessons. 

I understand that the method does not cover readings as there are many of these, they change in context etc. What I was wondering is, does the keyword relate to a common meaning of the kanji?

So the method starts out as: keyword, which triggers a story, which triggers how the kanji is written. This leads me to two concerns:

1) Will it work the other way around? (see kanji - understand meaning)
2) If the keyword is not linked to the meaning, how do we make that connection later on?

Cheers, Andrew

Every keyword is a meaning for a word that the character is used in, most of them are fairly common meanings. To avoid synonym conflict or to line up much better stories, they aren't always a common meaning though. Some of them are a bit weird because the keyword comes from a word where the character was only being used phonetically (an ateji word), or because the word is very obscure or antiquated.

RTK is really just one giant mnemonic to allow you to distinguish all the common characters (and some not so common) characters from one another. If you can do this, it's really easy to memorize words that are spelled using those characters.

If you try to learn Japanese without RTK, then when you learn a new word you also need to learn to recognize the characters in the word, and to distinguish them from all the other similar characters - including ones you've never seen before that only differ by a stroke or two, characters that differ only in the left radical (some of which have quite similar outlines).

There are of course, methods for dealing this, like memorizing the traditional radicals or writing out each character a few hundred times when you learn it and brute-forcing the image into memory with flashcards. Those methods didn't work so well for me, although to be fair, I never sat down and properly drilled myself on the traditional radicals.

Anyway, it's certainly a lot easier to learn words having already done RTK than not having done it. It's just putting one portion of the learning ahead of the rest so that you're not learning pronunciation, meaning, stroke order, and visual recognition of the characters all at the same time every time you learn a new word.

A lot of people feel it saves effort in the long run, although there is certainly reason to think it differs based on people's learning styles. I would complete RTK1 if you're not struggling horribly with it (either in difficulty or just hating doing it). If you make yourself do something you're hating, you'll likely abandon your Japanese learning journey before you've gotten very far at all. Not to say every moment has to be joyful, there is a certain rote tedium to any large memorization task after all, but hopefully you've got enjoyable moments and a certain satisfaction from conquering the characters.

Hmm, I see. I just hope that the keywords are related to a common meaning, unless repetition is being avoided. Otherwise, what is the point in memorizing an irrelevant story when I can use that energy to memorize a meaning?

I'm sticking with it for now; I'm just researching how it works exactly. "The meaning magically replace the stories" does not cut it for me. A method needs to be a method, and RTK 1, according to its title, is supposed to help you to memorize meanings as well as writing.

I'm also looking into RTK2 because naturally, this needs to contribute to the goal of reading/understanding kanji, and writing (creating) using kanji. I'm seeing a lot of "it all falls in to place" and "it doesn't teach you meanings" business, which simply leads me to ask, what's the point in investing all this time if it does not contribute significantly to the ultimate goal? I'm still not sure about it.

The reason I am sticking with it for now is, at least it teaches you to write the kanji. I think methods that teach you merely to recognize them aren't going to cut it - recognition in context is not on the level of recreation from scratch.

The reason it 'all falls into place' is because you've become familiar with the characters already. It's much easier to attach additional information to something that you already know than it is to memorize a whole set of information at once. It's a divide and conquer strategy.

While RTK2 is a logical extension of that divide and conquer strategy, I'm really not sold on learning pronunciation of characters in isolation and it's something I never did. (RTK2 is something I never did. I did waste a lot of time drilling kanji readings at one point, and it was pretty much just a waste of time.)

When I learn a new word, ideally I review it in a dictionary with good example sentences, then I drill it with a kana flashcard (example sentence on front, kanji and meaning on the back, pass on recognizing just the meaning of the word) then I drill it with a kanji flashcard (example sentence on front, kana and meaning on the back, pass on getting the meaning -and- typing in the kana correctly).

In this way I 'divide and conquer' by having the characters already known from RTK, learning a phonetic vocabulary word the same as any other language, and then putting them together.

Of course there are many approaches, and not many people do it the way I do it, but it works for me and gives you some idea of the kinds of 'next steps' that are available after RTK1.

(2016-04-12, 10:52 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: The reason it 'all falls into place' is because you've become familiar with the characters already. It's much easier to attach additional information to something that you already know than it is to memorize a whole set of information at once. It's a divide and conquer strategy.

While RTK2 is a logical extension of that divide and conquer strategy, I'm really not sold on learning pronunciation of characters in isolation and it's something I never did. (RTK2 is something I never did. I did waste a lot of time drilling kanji readings at one point, and it was pretty much just a waste of time.)

When I learn a new word, ideally I review it in a dictionary with good example sentences, then I drill it with a kana flashcard (example sentence on front, kanji and meaning on the back, pass on recognizing just the meaning of the word) then I drill it with a kanji flashcard (example sentence on front, kana and meaning on the back, pass on getting the meaning -and- typing in the kana correctly).

In this way I 'divide and conquer' by having the characters already known from RTK, learning a phonetic vocabulary word the same as any other language, and then putting them together.

Of course there are many approaches, and not many people do it the way I do it, but it works for me and gives you some idea of the kinds of 'next steps' that are available after RTK1.

Great suggestions as allways! The only thing I want to add is that RTK2 does not present readings out of context, but instead it gives allways an example word for which the kanji is read that way.
So in the end it is not dissimilar from other kinds of methods to learn readings by words, but it adds some structure to it, grouping them by "segnal primitive".

(2016-04-12, 9:17 am)Andoryu84 Wrote: Hmm, I see. I just hope that the keywords are related to a common meaning, unless repetition is being avoided. Otherwise, what is the point in memorizing an irrelevant story when I can use that energy to memorize a meaning?

If it makes you feel any better about spending your time wisely, I have yet to hear anybody who's done RTK mention that they thought it wasn't a very good idea.  On the contrary, most people who have done RTK find that it was very worth their time, myself included.

I would say that experience with actual written Japanese is what provides you with the ability to make reasonable guesses as to the meanings of new words, as well as remembering words a bit more readily than is possible with some of the RTK1 keywords.

(2016-04-12, 10:52 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: When I learn a new word, ideally I review it in a dictionary with good example sentences, then I drill it with a kana flashcard (example sentence on front, kanji and meaning on the back, pass on recognizing just the meaning of the word) then I drill it with a kanji flashcard (example sentence on front, kana and meaning on the back, pass on getting the meaning -and- typing in the kana correctly).

In this way I 'divide and conquer' by having the characters already known from RTK, learning a phonetic vocabulary word the same as any other language, and then putting them together.

Of course there are many approaches, and not many people do it the way I do it, but it works for me and gives you some idea of the kinds of 'next steps' that are available after RTK1.

Got it. That's what I'm after here - clarity of the method of attaching the meanings to the kanji. Thank you. Do you have a particular flash card deck that you use?

Does anyone else have a successful method in attaching meaning after completing RTK I?

As for RTK II - what is the point in learning "on" readings if they're not used in Japanese speech? Does it replace the keyword with an "on" reading and attach meanings?

I've read some scathing reviews about II and III - firstly, that the info in II could simply be indexed (although I have also read that there is a system to learning the "on" readings which is why they're used), and that RTK III covers a bunch of useless kanji - at that point, one should learn kanji specific to their profession, field of study etc.

(2016-04-11, 9:10 pm)Gensan Wrote: >2) If the keyword is not linked to the meaning, how do we make that connection later on?
When you learn vocab, start reading alot, it will somehow just imprint into your memories.
Once you see it alot the meaning will start to replace the keyword,

Hope this is helpful.

Ahh, I get it now. So what you guys are saying is that RTK should be learnt BEFORE vocab. Perhaps I should have made clearer where my Japanese is at. 

In mid-late 2013, I studied Japanese for about six months, traditional class/tutoring style. For the first few months, I learnt some basic Japanese as well as Japanese for travel. I then went to Japan and found that I could get around, shop, order food etc. quite easily. I could understand basic responses at train stations/for directions, at restaurants and in stores, but I certainly could not understand detailed responses or have social conversations. 

When I got back home, I studied for another few months, but I was not committed as my trip was over and I could see no use for Japanese in the foreseeable future.

Now, this has changed. I will be moving to Japan in August to teach English while setting up business networks (as well as enjoy my favourite place in the world). I have re-commenced classes and have just gotten to the point that I am learning completely new material - adjectives, and certain grammar. My next goal is simply to reach conversation level. 

However, I have only just started learning kanji. I probably have a few hundred words memorized (a long way to go, I know) just from classes. So you can see here how I got confused about the RTK method and learning vocab afterwards =)

But it makes perfect sense to me now. Learn RTK, learn vocab WITH kanji (not just with kana as I have been) = meanings (and readings) attach themselves. Got it. I am hoping the keywords help with memorizing the meanings. 

Thank you for all your responses! They have been very helpful. Method and foreseeable outcome is very important to me, and this is definitely a breakthrough in understanding how the RTK  method helps to read Japanese.