So, a while ago I  started Tobira and I'm pretty much halfway through it right now. But after I finished Genki 2, I srs'd a whole bunch of sentences from DoBJG and it worked pretty well. To my surprise, most of the grammar points in Tobira so far are things I've already seen, so it's mostly exposure and reading comprehension.

I've been thinking lately, why not do that again once I'm done with Tobira or when the book presents new grammar points as well? But unlike many people, I'm not really interest in taking the JLPT test (at least for now). That being said, it may be a useful guideline so I don't mind following it, but keep in mind this is not about taking the test. Oh, and please keep in mind I'm not trying to work on production - I just want to add good examples to read  them and get the correct nuance enough times so that I don't have to think about them much anymore.

My primary goal is to be able to watch anime and read visual novels comfortably (and playing games to a certain extent). I'd also like to be able to read about these things - news, articles, reviews, etc. I'll be doing tons of reading and thus learning a lot of vocabulary very soon. So in reality, this is merely the next formal step I intend to follow once I'm done with Tobira in order to make some overall progress as well. 

At first, I thought of srsing sentences from DoIJG and DoAJG and I noticed some people recommend these books. But I've been reading about it lately and it seems that a lot of people recommend books like 新完全マスター and 総まとめ from n3 on. I'm not sure they're better specifically for the JLPT test or if there are other reasons to go over them in general. I'd like to know good pros and cons of these books if possible and which one would be recommended for someone not interested in taking the JLPT per se, but rather to get some good "samples" just for recognition and solid overall progress.

If you're still interested in a textbook-like route like you have been doing, you can take a stab at this textbook, New Authentic Japanese: Progressing From Intermediate to Advanced. The most recent reviewer stated that they used it after Tobira.

I don't know the jlpt level of DoIJG is, but I have read that DoAJG is about N1.

Yeah, I've heard that many grammar points in DoAJG aren't even that common.

Anyway... the thing is, I don't know much about 新完全マスター or 総まとめ. At first, I thought of doing DoIJG as I've already learned everything in the first one, but I've seen so many people recommend these other 2 books that I don't know which one to use now.

I don't know if that's because these 2 books better for JLPT (not my concern), if the examples are better, if the explanations are clearer, or perhaps they have exercises (which I don't care for). I don't know if it's worth going over the N3 book for the more advanced ones, since I'm not sure exactly how much stuff I've already seen in DoBJG is there.

I just want to get most of the Japanese grammar out of the way by reviewing good sample sentences in Anki. But I'm not sure which of these 3 books would be the most recommended for that. Since most advanced students seem to have tried at least one of these books if not more, I'd like to get some feedback on which one to pick to achieve my goal.

Here are previews of 新完全マスター and 総まとめ grammar books from White Rabbit Press:

新完全マスター N3
新完全マスター N2
新完全マスター N1

-----------------------
総まとめ N3
総まとめ N2
総まとめ N1

This should give you an idea of what to expect. Most prefer the 新完全マスター books for N2~N1 from what I've seen.

I own most of the 総まとめ N3 set and I'm satisfied with it. I think most of the members aiming for N3 use the series too.

EDIT: Wanted to add that 新完全マスター books as far as I know don't have English translations of their sentences. 総まとめ books do with furigana (even on N1 which imo is strange at that level).

(2016-04-07, 3:27 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: My primary goal is to be able to watch anime and read visual novels comfortably (and playing games to a certain extent). I'd also like to be able to read about these things - news, articles, reviews, etc.

I strongly suggest that you start right now if you already have a vocabulary base. There are plenty of easy VNs around and NHK Easy which is extra simple if you do the Core decks.

The Shin Kanzen Master and Sou Matome books are JLPT prep books. They are not meant to teach you grammar. In any case learning grammar from textbooks is a bad idea -- I suggest you skim through a grammar guide like Tae Kim then go and read VNs and watch anime while referring back to the DoJG or TK.

The reason being learning grammar from reading is much more organic and intuitive to the human brain than textbook exercises. That's from personal experience and is backed up by studies:

Quote:According to Krashen there are two independent systems of second language performance: 'the acquired system' and 'the learned system'. The 'acquired system' or 'acquisition' is the product of a subconscious process very similar to the process children undergo when they acquire their first language. It requires meaningful interaction in the target language - natural communication - in which speakers are concentrated not in the form of their utterances, but in the communicative act.

The 'learned system' or 'learning' is the product of formal instruction and it comprises a conscious process which results in conscious knowledge 'about' the language, for example knowledge of grammar rules. According to Krashen 'learning' is less important than 'acquisition'.

Read more here

Another good thing about reading is it creates a positive feedback loop. As you read and get better, you'll be able to feel the improvement and be motivated to do more.

There's no lack of input in my routine, I just don't want to commit to something extremely long like a visual novel for now. Dark Souls 3 and the English version of Root Double come out this month, so tackling a Japanese visual novel in addition to these 2 is a little too much.

That being said, I've already studied linguistics (Krashen included) and acquired a foreign language (English), so I know what I'm doing.

Think about it this way - when you learn new words, you need to see several examples to build up confidence and understand the nuance properly, right? That's comprehensible input. The same happens with grammar structures - seeing several examples and trying to understand these sentences helps you internalize the nuance.  

The reason for srsing sentences is simple. It's easy to forget a lot of what I read if I just skim through a textbook without reviewing the sentences, so it wouldn't help me much that. What I  do is, first I go over the grammar explanation once, which isn't as much "formal instruction" as it is making sure I don't get the wrong nuance. That's not different from what you suggested. Then, reviewing the sentences in Anki is my initial/temporary input, which allows me to interpret things without having to think much. It's a memory thing, just like words - if you don't see a new word often enough, you eventually forget it. So instead, I srs these useful sentences so that I manage internalize them reasonably well and eventually suspend them.

You may think this is "learning", but upon seeing several of these new structures in Tobira I noticed that I didn't have to think about most of them. This makes input more comprehensible in general, which means less thinking, even more input, and less mental strain.


Tl;dr: Like I said before, I'm not looking for exercises. I just want to know which book would most help me understand the nuance of these grammar points while providing a handful of solid examples (sentences) for contrast.

One of my Japanese teachers recommended this book: どんどん使える!日本語文型トレーニング 中級
for those of us who were finishing up our study abroad soon and wanted more new examples to practice what we had learned. Unfortunately I got sidetracked by a manga so I haven't used it much, but it looked to maybe have some of that intermediate practice you were looking for (lists a grammar point, quick english translation, then a bunch of different sentences so that you can see how it was used).
J501 was another textbook that I used briefly, that seemed to go a bit farther than Tobira, with a bit more challenging readings towards the end.

If you are at around N3+, and you goal is anime/visual novels, then it might be more beneficial to grab your vocabulary and grammar from there, as a lot of textbooks probably won't have the same specific vocabulary and grammar (also slang phrases) that you would find in what you are watching/reading (at least none of the textbooks I've used).

It might benefit you to pick up a JLPT book anyway, as that is another source that you can study from and grab stuff that has a pretty good chance of showing up again somewhere.

Sorry, but I really can't see SRS as a viable option for input at all. If it works for you, that's good, but I find SRSing sentences, from textbooks no less, extremely counterintuitive. In my opinion you should really just read some real native material. If a VN is too long, you can read news articles or editorials instead since you listed them in your goals in the first post.

Quote: Tl;dr: Like I said before, I'm not looking for exercises. I just want to know which book would most help me understand the nuance of these grammar points while providing a handful of solid examples (sentences) for contrast.

Sou Matome and SKM should be right up your alley then. Both include several example sentences and give clear examples of how to differentiate between similar grammar structures. I personally recommend SKM but it doesn't have english translations if that's your kind of thing.

Alternatively since you don't want exercises there's this website. The downside is that it doesn't compare nuances among grammar structures or go as in depth as either of the abovementioned book sets. They are JLPT prep books, after all.

I can't stress this enough but you should really start getting some real input instead of SRSing sentences from textbooks. Firstly you're going to keep seeing the same sentences over and over again which doesn't help you. Secondly when you read native material your brain practises comprehending the same grammar structures in different contexts (sentences) which will solidify your understanding more than doing so with the same few example sentences. Lastly reading native material gives far more satisfaction from language learning than textbook example sentences.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm reading this right. Are you playing DS3 in Japanese?

(2016-04-09, 3:18 am)risu_ Wrote: Sorry, but I really can't see SRS as a viable option for input at all. If it works for you, that's good, but I find SRSing sentences, from textbooks no less, extremely counterintuitive. In my opinion you should really just read some real native material. If a VN is too long, you can read news articles or editorials instead since you listed them in your goals in the first post.

Quote: Tl;dr: Like I said before, I'm not looking for exercises. I just want to know which book would most help me understand the nuance of these grammar points while providing a handful of solid examples (sentences) for contrast.

Sou Matome and SKM should be right up your alley then. Both include several example sentences and give clear examples of how to differentiate between similar grammar structures. I personally recommend SKM but it doesn't have english translations if that's your kind of thing.

Alternatively since you don't want exercises there's this website. The downside is that it doesn't compare nuances among grammar structures or go as in depth as either of the abovementioned book sets. They are JLPT prep books, after all.

I can't stress this enough but you should really start getting some real input instead of SRSing sentences from textbooks. Firstly you're going to keep seeing the same sentences over and over again which doesn't help you. Secondly when you read native material your brain practises comprehending the same grammar structures in different contexts (sentences) which will solidify your understanding more than doing so with the same few example sentences. Lastly reading native material gives far more satisfaction from language learning than textbook example sentences.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm reading this right. Are you playing DS3 in Japanese?

risu_, do you use Anki at all? Or do you rely on massive reading/listening only?

I do Anki for vocabulary and read 1-3 hours a day.

(2016-04-09, 8:34 am)risu_ Wrote: I do Anki for vocabulary and read 1-3 hours a day.

Thank you for you reply! I asked because even if I find Anki very useful to review already learned words and to not forget them, I find it of little use for things like grammar of words nuances. The more I read the more Anki became just a secondary/support tool. But still very effective in that!

(2016-04-09, 3:18 am)risu_ Wrote: Sorry, but I really can't see SRS as a viable option for input at all. If it works for you, that's good, but I find SRSing sentences, from textbooks no less, extremely counterintuitive. In my opinion you should really just read some real native material. If a VN is too long, you can read news articles or editorials instead since you listed them in your goals in the first post.

Quote: Tl;dr: Like I said before, I'm not looking for exercises. I just want to know which book would most help me understand the nuance of these grammar points while providing a handful of solid examples (sentences) for contrast.

Sou Matome and SKM should be right up your alley then. Both include several example sentences and give clear examples of how to differentiate between similar grammar structures. I personally recommend SKM but it doesn't have english translations if that's your kind of thing.

Alternatively since you don't want exercises there's this website. The downside is that it doesn't compare nuances among grammar structures or go as in depth as either of the abovementioned book sets. They are JLPT prep books, after all.

I can't stress this enough but you should really start getting some real input instead of SRSing sentences from textbooks. Firstly you're going to keep seeing the same sentences over and over again which doesn't help you. Secondly when you read native material your brain practises comprehending the same grammar structures in different contexts (sentences) which will solidify your understanding more than doing so with the same few example sentences. Lastly reading native material gives far more satisfaction from language learning than textbook example sentences.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm reading this right. Are you playing DS3 in Japanese?

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But like I said before, there's no lack of input in my routine.

For instance, I've switched the language of a lot of the websites I visit daily to Japanese recently - facebook, reddit, steam, and gmail. I'll probably do the same with Anki, but it's a bit of a hassle so I haven't done it yet. I've already srs'd most of the vocabulary I'll ever see on the websites I mentioned as well as visual novel menu options.

I've also been reading visual novel, anime, and games news and websites whenever I find something interested, like this http://www.spike-chunsoft.co.jp/zeroescape/. In addition, I've been going over song lyrics as well every now. As for Dark Souls 3, I'll probably play the Japanese version since it's available, although it's still voiced in English. Not a bad thing though, because I'm not exactly ready to figure things out on the spot in a game you can't pause and die all the time!

These sentences are just a temporary step. I srsd a whole bunch of sentences at the end of January, but soon enough I didn't have to think to recall the meaning of these grammar points and suspend most of the sentences. At this point, I have no more than 0-5 sentences to review per day and soon enough this deck will be history.

It's like srsing vocabulary to remember the meaning of a word. As a matter of fact, it's pretty much the same with lots of grammar points - the only difference is that you need to see more examples to understand the different ways a given expression may be used in a sentence, which is what I'll be working on. For instance, yesterday I learned べく (which apparently is an N1 grammar point lol) while reading the ZE link I mentioned above. That's pretty much the same as learning vocabulary, except it's used after the dictionary form of verbs. On the other hand, regular words have several definitions, different nuances, collocations, and no clear-cut explanations like most grammar points. These things make it much harder to get a feel for how a word is used without seeing it a whole bunch examples. All I'm doing is commiting these expressions to memory to reduce the amount of time I'll spend looking things up later on.


English translations might be helpful, but it all depends on how clear the contrast and nuance is without the translation. But why do you think　新完全マスター　is better? Is the contrast between the examples clearer or is it something else?

(2016-04-09, 1:58 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: English translations might be helpful, but it all depends on how clear the contrast and nuance is without the translation. But why do you think　新完全マスター　is better? Is the contrast between the examples clearer or is it something else?

I'm not risu_ but from what I know about the Kanzen Master series, the grammar points in that series better prepares you for the JLPT exam than the ones on Sou Matome due to difficulty or just shear amount. I'm not sure, maybe both?

I see. I've just read that 総まとめ feels like an easier transition to N2, but not quite as comprehensive. In the review I read, the person said the book expects you to answer some stuff properly by trial and error, rather than giving you proper examples to prepare you to deal with that situation. To me, it sounds like the book doesn't have quite have as much variety and contrast in the examples as it should. The fact that it expects you to realize certain things as you do the exercises may be a problem, because I won't be doing any of them.

On the other hand, I wonder if 新完全マスター would be able to convey the nuance of certain things as clearly as DoIJG. It may be a good prep book, but there's a difference between helping you understand the meaning/nuances of a grammar point and teaching you how to take a specific test.

(2016-04-09, 2:56 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: I see. I've just read that 総まとめ feels like an easier transition to N2, but not quite as comprehensive. In the review I read, the person said the book expects you to answer some stuff properly by trial and error, rather than giving you proper examples to prepare you to deal with that situation. To me, it sounds like the book doesn't have quite have as much variety and contrast in the examples as it should. The fact that it expects you to realize certain things as you do the exercises may be a problem, because I won't be doing any of them.

On the other hand, I wonder if 新完全マスター would be able to convey the nuance of certain things as clearly as DoIJG. It may be a good prep book, but there's a difference between helping you understand the meaning/nuances of a grammar point and teaching you how to take a specific test.

If you go through this Thread, you'll find some books that complement the Kanzen Master books well in terms of nuances.  There are some examples of excerpts there too.

Since I'm only interested in reading comprehension to understand my games I just want to be able to read and understand flawlessly exercice sentences in my textbook and key sentences in the dictionaries of Japanese grammar. When I'll get that basis I'll learn in context by playing my games.