I have a Japanese girlfriend and we speak 95% in Japanese. This works out quite nicely and it's a great way to improve. However, I am having an ongoing issue.

Basically, I can't decide which form of self address to use with her as I feel that none of them suit me.

boku - Too boyish. I am not meek and generally will not pretend with people. I feel this is too cute.

ore - Hard to explain but it just feels like using ore is stamping ones own reality on those around you. It's too macho for me. I have friends that are quite gentle who use this though (not sure if they use it with their girlfriends).

watashi - Obviously too polite. I generally use this with her as the best of a poor set of choices, but it feels weird using it with someone who is close in a relaxed environment.

If I use ore she complains that it doesn't suit me, which I generally agree. I am fairly reflective and can be anal really. However, I suspect that a big part of it for her is that I am a gaijin. She also believes that boku doesn't suit me.

Anyway, I don't really care so much what she thinks. I believe I must choose for myself, but I want to decide for good if possible.

What do you use? Do you think ore can be used without the oppressive overtones? What is your take on boku and ore?

Does she think 私 is too formal? If not, just use that. It is polite but can be used in most situations really.

just try to leaving out the first person particle more, if you use 95% japanese with the ladyfriend, I'm sure you're good at dropping subjects, but even with that in mind, if this is a big problem for you, you could probably drop them more.

if you want something more neutral just use watashi or boku for very common stuff...i.e. だれの？→　私の。 /僕の。　watashi might be more formal, but if you are more comfortable with it for now, I think it's ok, while you sort out the other stuff.

You might also try working uchi into your repertoire too. Not 100% sure though, might be a little feminine. I often here girls/women say it along the lines of "who, me?" →　"うち？"....but I think it is ok for guys when referring to things like "my family", "my apartment", "my job", etc.

I know one person whose kid likes to use おいら...though it is probably too kiddie, i was told it is also apparently the preferred "I" pronoun of talking animals...and then I noticed that all the talking penguins in the mario games I play use　おいら (so you probably don't want that one...but it is sorta interesting)

And just use ore for stuff when you want to be emphatic, proud, or arrogant (i.e. think of sentences where the I gets stressed in English....for example "I'm going to do it" vs. "I'm going to do it"...and if you want to kick it up a notch there is also ore-sama. But I mainly use this as a joke with my girlfriend because she knows I think it is funny...for example, I get a strike in Wii Bowling..."俺様はすごいな。? or something stupid like that...I can't vouch for serious usage.

I think your right part of the reason she doesn't like ore is because you are a gaikokujin...partly because maybe it just seems odd and partly because you haven't mastered the subtle usage of all the personal pronoun choices (I know I haven't).

Oh and you can probably get some mileage out of jibun too

(oh and this is all for talking to your girlfriend...stick with watashi when speaking to your higher ups)

tokyostyle Wrote:私はアメリカ人です。 even I start laughing.

"watashi ha....desu" is fine for a self-introductions, which is what this sentence sounds like.

but yeah, if someone asks you "アメリカ人なの？? and you answer 私はアメリカ人です, it sounds pretty stupid.

How about "watakushi"..? -lol-

I really see nothing "cute" or "boyish" in "boku". My sensei (in his mid 60's and has lived in Japan for 40+ years) uses it all the time and according to him its "youngish" but can be used by anyone who doesn't consider himself a geezer..
It's good enough for me. "ore" doesn't really sound "me" at all in a normal conversation..

[ファブリス]

わし！

You can also refer to yourself using your own name instead of a pronoun. To us, it feels weird, but I have read somewhere that it's common in japanese. I also have heard that some girls avoid it because they sound a bit 'simple', but my source can be wrong.

According to Tae Kim, the most recommended form is to avoid first-name pronouns entirely if you can. English is special in that the pronouns have to be included in almost every sentence, but it doesn't sound natural in other languages.

In any case, "boku" is a best fit than "watashi" for talking with friends. Note that 私 has the meaning "private", so when you use it, you are establishing a distance between you and your partner.

DrJones Wrote:You can also refer to yourself using your own name instead of a pronoun. To us, it feels weird, but I have read somewhere that it's common in japanese. I also have heard that some girls avoid it because they sound a bit 'simple', but my source can be wrong.

It's not common, unless you're a 6yr old girl or trying to act as cute as one.

Maybe whoever said that boku was boyish meant that it is only used by males (and not females, unless they are singing a song), while not being coarse like ore.

You should also watch out using omae, even among peers. It treats the other person as 目下 and makes you 偉そう. Even among peers in Japan there is a hierarchy determined by relative age, who has known who longer, type of employment, etc. My Japanese girlfriend gets right pissed off if I use omae with her. Normally I just use her name.

That reminds me of a (non-Japanese) guy in my peer group who uses omae to refer to everyone instead of their name. Everyone (Japanese and non Japanese alike) calls him <name>-chan since ignorance of social levels makes him seem like a little boy.

I personally stick to "boku" most of the time. However, it's good to make a conscious effort to avoid using personal pronouns more than absolutely necessary. It's so, ehrm, un-Japanese...

ファブリス Wrote:わし！

拙者！


(せっしゃ！)

Transtic Wrote:

ファブリス Wrote:わし！

拙者！


(せっしゃ！)

damn, you beat me to it!!

don't forget that you can refer to yourself as 自分, too.

as for the 俺, 僕 stuff... it's all a matter of taste.

but IMO... I don't think 俺 looks good at all on a student of japanese that can't speak with at least an intermediate level of J-skills. it looks too try-hard.

Whenever I ask Japanese friends this I am always told the Boku is the most suitable for someone my age (19). Using Ore apparently makes me sound like an anime character. I still use Watashi quite a lot just out of reflex. All the kids I teach speak about themselves in the third person, which rubs of on me, in fact most people I tall in the third person if there are using it to show possessive, e.g. Dare no boshi? Yumi no! Apologies for the romanji.

yorkii Wrote:don't forget that you can refer to yourself as 自分, too.

as for the 俺, 僕 stuff... it's all a matter of taste.

but IMO... I don't think 俺 looks good at all on a student of japanese that can't speak with at least an intermediate level of J-skills. it looks too try-hard.

It can be misleading if you aren't careful though, since 自分 points at an established or assumed personal pronoun, and isn't a personal pronoun itself.

e.g. ジョンさんは自分の車を持っている。 This means that John has his own car, not that he has my car.

Jarvik7 Wrote:It can be misleading if you aren't careful though, since 自分 points at an established or assumed personal pronoun, and isn't a personal pronoun itself.

e.g. ジョンさんは自分の車を持っている。 This means that John has his own car, not that he has my car.

I definately hear this used to mean "I". I remember making particular note of it since I thought it was odd since textbooks introduce it to mean "myself, yourself, one's own, etc". So phrases like 自分の車　and 自分でしなさい。 seem to fit the definition better...but for example from jisho.org I just grabbed the sentence 自分でも負けた。　(even I was defeated.) Though the usual Tanaka's corpus caveats apply, I think the sentence seems good.

johnzep Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:It can be misleading if you aren't careful though, since 自分 points at an established or assumed personal pronoun, and isn't a personal pronoun itself.

e.g. ジョンさんは自分の車を持っている。 This means that John has his own car, not that he has my car.

I definately hear this used to mean "I". I remember making particular note of it since I thought it was odd since textbooks introduce it to mean "myself, yourself, one's own, etc". So phrases like 自分の車　and 自分でしなさい。 seem to fit the definition better...but for example from jisho.org I just grabbed the sentence 自分でも負けた。　(even I was defeated.) Though the usual Tanaka's corpus caveats apply, I think the sentence seems good.

In any case where it is seemingly used by itself, it is really just referring to an omitted personal pronoun (私etc). So while it can be used LIKE a personal pronoun in many instances, you can't treat it exactly the same as 私、俺、僕。

and to go back to uchi...how exactly would you use this in the neutral/non-girlie manner?

If someone said to you: "At my office, we just got all brand new computers" would it be ok/natural for a male to say "いいですね。　うちのパソコンはとてもふるいです。?　to mean "that's great. My company's computers are really old"

johnzep Wrote:If someone said to you: "At my office, we just got all brand new computers" would it be ok/natural for a male to say "いいですね。　うちのパソコンはとてもふるいです。?　to mean "that's great. My company's computers are really old"

I'd say うちの会社のパソコン.

Personally, I use ぼく all the time with friends and わたし when I want to be polite (older people, people I don't know etc.) If I'm in an all male environment, I sometimes switch to おれ.

I've noticed that I don't use おれ nearly as much as the average Japanese male since I hear it a lot more than I speak it.

In any event, it's a question of personal preference. You will give certain impressions based on the choice you make but none of them is "wrong". The only concrete advice I can give is to use わたし in any situations where you're in doubt or where you think you may need to be polite.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Maybe whoever said that boku was boyish meant that it is only used by males (and not females, unless they are singing a song)

宇多田ヒカル？

wrightak Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Maybe whoever said that boku was boyish meant that it is only used by males (and not females, unless they are singing a song)

宇多田ヒカル？

Exactly She isn't alone in her usage of it though.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Exactly She isn't alone in her usage of it though.

Anyone else come to mind? I always thought it was pretty weird.

I do not hear many girls using 「僕」 when speaking out loud. However, it is quite popular in poetry and songwriting.

It seems like this has already been pretty well covered, but I'll throw in my experience as well. A few years ago I was an exchange student in Tokyo for a year and started to date a Japanese girl. It was my first time in Japan, and I didn't think I was an 俺 kind of person so I was using 僕 pretty much exclusively. My gf eventually told me that I should use 俺 as I'm not a little boy. I thought it was funny that she said that as it didn't seem right for me. But she was the Japanese one. A lot of my friends who also seemed very shy used 僕 and she said even they should use 俺. Now of course you have to consider the circumstances that we were all in. College exchange students, going to parties, skipping class, being young, etc. There isn't too much hierarchy here or anybody to really offend.

Now I am on JET and teach in a Junior High school. This situation is very very different. I hear 僕 all the time (I would say almost exclusively) in the teachers room. This makes sense to me now. All of the teachers are good friends, and only the VP and Principals are really above them (even they use it so as to be polite). It's not the environment for 俺. Every now and then when somebody is making a joke or try to be sarcastic I'll hear it.

Fast forward to out drinking parties. 俺 comes up almost all the time! At least wayyyy more then in any other situation. But we are all drinking! The rules kinda go out the window.

Like I said I don't think i'm sharing anything new, but just a verifiable experience.

skinnyneo Wrote:It seems like this has already been pretty well covered, but I'll throw in my experience as well. A few years ago ...

I think that's the best post on the topic yet.

If 僕 is good enough for Haruki Murakami and Koji Suzuki, it's good enough for me.