Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 299
Thanks:
0
Okay, I've done Heisig and read Tae Kim up until the advanced section. I'll definitely finish the whole thing before studying the stuff he didn't go over in A Dictionary on Basic Japanese Grammar. It's been hard work getting here as far as I'm concerned yet whenever I face a passage of Japanese text I'll still most likely not be able to understand most of it. I haven't studied vocab specifically yet, so I'm wondering if this is the next step? Tae Kim says the advanced part is stuff that I may not necessarily come up against and while, I'll of course still go over it, I can't help but think my priorities could lie else where right now.
I'm trying to play through Shin Megami Tensei for PS1 in Japanese and I can understand around 50% of it. While this felt incredible at first it's quickly worn off. Like learning kana for the first time I guess. I had visions of how I was going to get a Japanese PS3 but nah, I'm evidently not ready for that just yet. I just want to get on and finally be out of the sucking phase.
So, put simply, how do I become able to know the remaining 50% I don't get? How do I learn vocab? I'm guessing Katsuo's sentence method but I just wanted to make sure of a few things before going off and starting...
- Do I literally just find a word I don't know, punch it into Google, get a sentence containing that word and then put it into an SRS?
- Where do I get the answer/explanation from? I don't know Japanese, I can't make the answer myself.
- You're also meant to imput definitions of words you don't know from the original definition. But, seeing how I don't know many words yet, this could go on forever, definition after definition, until after 2 years I've done a complete circle of every JP word in existence and made one mother of an answer for one sentence. With this in mind, should I just begin with JP questions and English answers, until my vocab's strong enough to attempt otherwise?
Thanks.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 794
Thanks:
7
If you haven't reached JLPT3 yet, I think you should use a course, whether it's a textbook or an assortment of (accurate) websites. You can use the sentences for the sentence method if you want, but it'll have a translation or explanation so you know you understand it.
I never understood how an absolute beginner was supposed to acquire and understand 10 000 sentences all on their own... I wouldn't be able to learn anything from a sentence I couldn't already understand(without an explanation).
Real Japanese is somehow different from textbook Japanese...but with practice it does get easier.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 352
Thanks:
0
First, I would suggest going over the words and essentially memorizing every one you don't know from the JLPT 4 and JLPT 3 word lists. If you can understand 50 percent of a megaten game, you will probably already know a lot of these words, so it shouldn't take very long (less than a week). Normally, I don't think it is a very good idea to learn vocab in isolation, but I think it is well worth it in the beginning stages because these words are so common you will see them within context soon enough. Later on this should help you from having the overwhelming feeling of having to look up nearly every word you come across.
As for the sentence method, I would strongly recommend Kanji Odyssey 2001 if you haven't already got it. It is arranged in order of most used Kanji with plenty of example compounds and intermediate difficulty sentences that will reenforce the grammar rules you have learned.
Currently, I am using K.O. by going through each sentence one by one and trying to translate them from English to Japanese, and vice versa. Then I uncover the "answer" sentence from the book; I pay careful attention to any mistakes I have made, rewrite the sentence correctly, and then move on. Its been working for me so far, but I admit it can be tedious.
Edited: 2008-04-16, 12:26 pm
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,879
Thanks:
19
Your best source for sentences will probably be something like Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar (which I like), All About Particles, Japanese for Everyone, or another good textbook for now.
UBJG is just a book full of correct sentences that give examples of correct grammar. They're dull, but useful. AAP is a really good book that goes into detail explaining particles and gives example sentences with each function. I like the way she has 2 different English translations-- the literal, and the "meaning." JFE is a solid textbook that does a good job of explaining things. You might have to find it used, though. Genki is also pretty good with grammar. It's not my favorite, but it's useful if you're willing to get creative in how you mine it.
It also doesn't hurt to have a phrasebook or two around, because knowing your clich?s is important in any language, but it really helps in Japanese.
Later on, when you want to start tackling lots of Kanji, I like the Kanji Odyssey books. They're pretty well thought out, and do a good job of presenting lots of kanji readings that are related to each other. The English translations are a little funky, but they're functional.
When you're first starting out, you should be looking for grammatically correct sentences of proper polite Japanese (for now, anyway), with good English translations. It's really hard to screw up if you're too polite, but if you're too casual, you'll come across as very rude. (And that's where you need some background knowledge before using something like manga or anime as a source, IMO.)
Also, try to find something with audio, if possible. The more audio, the better, because otherwise your pronunciation is going to be "off."
Finally, go both ways with your sentences. That means reading a sentence full of kana and kanji-> speaking it out loud, and then check the reading in all-kana on the back side. You also have to understand what it means, so put the English on the back as well. If you can't read it correctly, fail it until you can. If you don't understand it, fail it. That's a good way of learning kanji readings. Going the other way means using the reading of the sentence in kana as the front of the card, and writing out the sentence with the proper kanji. This is a bit slow, but I've found it to be very effective. Not every sentence will work for going both ways, because not every one has kanji in it, but those that do will make it a lot easier to master kanji.
That's been my experience so far, anyway.
Edited: 2008-04-16, 12:27 pm
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 117
Thanks:
0
Well, there is always the often maligned RTKII. Yes, the stated purpose of the book is learning the readings. But the very mechanism for learning the readings is to learn vocabulary. For each onyomi reading of a kanji, one vocabulary word is provided. In addition, I try to find one or two more common words for each reading. I am throwing these into Twinkle and drilling. By the time I finish the book, I should be familiar with 3000 to 4000 common words.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 299
Thanks:
0
Hm I did try RtKII on the first 50 or so kanji and it seemed to work fine enough. But it seems to me like I'd be killing to birds with one stone if I solely learn the vocab lists.
In fact, I just added 160 of the first words into Anki. Am I doing it right, just copy and pasting? There's no pre-set thing I can download that I won't find out about until after I've done it?
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,022
Thanks:
1
@rich_f
I think textbooks are great for sentence mining for grammar points, but most are rather anaemic on kanji usage, which is a shame for someone with RTK1 knowledge.
Ofcourse you can try to kanjify them yourself, but that's extra work + has some pitfalls, for example picking the wrong kanji (like 厚い ｖｓ 暑い vs 熱い), or kanjifying things that shouldn't be kanjified.
@gibosi
The problem with doing that is you may get 3000~4000 words along with the kanji readings, but absolutely no context to put them in. Nothing to differentiate the many words that have similar or same meanings, and no idea how those words are actually used in the language. It must be quite hard going when you've got little to hook those words on.
I'm going through Kanji Odyssey, and with that you can acquire 3000~4000 common words, as well as actually some understanding of when they're used and with what other words, etc. Seems to work well for me so far, and the new vocab is very noticeable when watching doramas and anime.
Edited: 2008-04-16, 6:47 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 873
Thanks:
0
I'd definitely recommend a course or a text book. I went through the Japanese for Busy People series and Japanese for College Students. A lot of people recommend Genki. If there's a course going on in your area then I'd recommend enrolling.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 97
Thanks:
0
if you just read things, your vocab will get better.
if you read them over and over again, you'll start to memorize them.
also, since you have to find your own sources, the vocab will be important to you, your interests, and likely help you with communication. for example, i'm interested in the news, so i read the 毎日小学生新聞. today the article was about the protests in tibet. now only did i learn fun words like "rebellion," but i also learned a great deal about tibet and their relations with china.
if you don't have access to something like that, just reading simple articles from the newspaper is good. if you use ふりがなめがね or pop-up 辞書, you'll be able to read a ton. and if you do it every day, your vocab will increase naturally, and usefully. not only will you start to learn words, but you'll have a context to use those words and something to talk about (or write about) in japanese.
not only that, but it makes your studies "your own personal" studies. it will relate to your life, your interests, and all of that. it will help you be you. flashcards and lists don't really do that.
but i guess this advice only works for people around the 3級ー１級 levels. the 4級 folk will need to memorize the basics. after all, you can't paint a picture until you've learned the hold the brush.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,879
Thanks:
19
The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is fine if you want to learn Japanese in alphabetical order, but the nice thing about a textbook is that it presents information in a more logical order. I haven't used Tae Kim's guide, so I have no idea how good/bad it is. I prefer to use texts that have been written by native Japanese speakers, because I know for sure that the sentences will make sense. (Or at least I hope they do.)
I know someone on the forums has already done all the sentences for Japanese for Everyone in a spreadsheet-- just search for it on the forums and you should find the link. So that would save you a huge amount of time if you can track down a copy of the book to go with them. (I found a used copy in an old book shop here for $15.)
