(2016-03-18, 10:10 am)rich_f Wrote: For 1, after ようでは, something either contrary to expectations OR critical of the subject ("negative judgments") is talked about. (Have a look at 日本語文型辞典 EN version, p. 665.) Kind of a "If X can't do something like this, then (negative judgment)" sort of thing, which is perfect for this sentence.

としたら (p. 362, since it's #2, already realized condition) is talking about a supposition instead of a judgment, where ようでは is talking more of a judgment than a supposition. としたら has more of a "Since X can't do something like this, then he's probably not going to do it," flavor, so if you tried to shove it into 1, it would sound like "Since X can't do something like this, he's not much of a salesman," which sounds weird. としたら does show the speaker's judgment, but it's more of a "Well, if X hasn't happened, then it's probably not going to" sort of thing, rather than, "If X can't do it, then X sucks" kind of thing. (Because there's no negative or critical opinion expressed in the としたら judgment, just an opinion about what's going to happen next.)

At least that's how I see it.

Thanks!  I have that book so I'll look at the definition along with what you stated.

Quote:としたら (p. 362, since it's #2, already realized condition)

I disagree. I think it's "<My boss> said, 'Suppose you fail to secure even one order. If that happens, then you're not much of a salesman.'" - it's a completely hypothetical future with no indication that it's likely to happen, which makes it a very weird thing to bring up.

(2016-03-18, 12:22 pm)Vempele Wrote:

Quote:としたら (p. 362, since it's #2, already realized condition)

I disagree. I think it's "<My boss> said, 'Suppose you fail to secure even one order. If that happens, then you're not much of a salesman.'" - it's a completely hypothetical future with no indication that it's likely to happen, which makes it a very weird thing to bring up.

Sorry, my bad.  The sentence was part of one of those long paragraph multiple questions in Kanzen Master.  In the sentences before, it stated the salesman performed poorly.  So I think Rich is correct. I didn't provide enough context.

[Zgarbas]

Both rich_f and vempele are right, actually.
Basically, you use だとしたら in a hypothetical situation, usually hoping for advice and information if that situation were to occur. It's not a succession of events, but playing the field a bit. Even in that context it still doesn't make sense since it's just too hypothetical and seems unrelated to the result. You use だとしたら when asking people what they would think in a situation, or what advice they would give you if that were to happen, or what they would do if they were in your shoes. Subjunctive all the way.
ようでは is just a negative direct consequence; 'if X happens, then bad things will follow'. It's conditional.

Thanks for the explanations.  I am knee deep into this so I am sure I will have more questions.  I am working with a tutor, but I would say it's 80% effective, with a few things I just don't get.  I am working through some hard sections in the back of Shin Kanzen Master N1 bunpou now.  It's very challenging to say the least.

I had a lot of trouble with the 旅行 question too. I eventually decided on 1 3 4 2 order as in

この旅行で何にもまして良かったことはだれとでもきがるに話せたことだ。

What did you get?

(The fill in the blanks questions are merciless, aren't they?)

(2016-03-20, 9:04 pm)risu_ Wrote: I had a lot of trouble with the 旅行 question too. I eventually decided on 1 3 4 2 order as in

この旅行で何にもまして良かったことはだれとでもきがるに話せたことだ。

What did you get?

(The fill in the blanks questions are merciless, aren't they?)

That's the correct answer.

As an update, I'm almost finished going through those 12 last sections in Shin Kanzen Master N1 bunpou with tutors. I'm going to start to take mock tests soon. I was wondering what is the minimum percentage to get right in each section to pass? Approximately, since I know it's graded on a bit of a curve. Also what is the overall number you have to hit on the whole test?

(2016-03-24, 10:05 am)PotbellyPig Wrote: As an update, I'm almost finished going through those 12 last sections in Shin Kanzen Master N1 bunpou with tutors.  I'm going to start to take mock tests soon.  I was wondering what is the minimum percentage to get right in each section to pass? Approximately, since I know it's graded on a bit of a curve.  Also what is the overall number you have to hit on the whole test?

I don't really know if I would call it a curve. You can lose points for correct answers still as far as I understand (and get points for incorrect answers).

For N1, you need 19 points per each section minimum with a combined total of 100 points or more to pass. Take a mock test and see how well you do (just do the math straight, don't try to curve). Add up 60 * percentage right on language knowledge (vocab + grammar) + 60 * percentage right on reading + 60 * percentage right on listening to figure out if you passed or not (roughly). If the combined total is greater than or equal to 100 then you "passed".

For what it's worth, the official JLPT N2 mock test I took last year not long before the test was damn close to what I got on the actual test. Maybe a few points off.

Edit: Also, there's no real minimum for each section that you need in order to pass. You could ace one section and barely pass the individual requirement for the other sections and still pass the test. Passing each individual section (19/60 each) points would not let you pass the exam even if you pass the section.

Okay that sounds decent then. So as long as you average about 60% or so on each section, you are doing okay. And you can do better on one section to make up for doing worse on another.

(2016-03-24, 2:24 pm)zx573 Wrote: You can lose points for correct answers still as far as I understand (and get points for incorrect answers).

Why do you think that? The Item Response Theory stuff that the JLPT info about scaling refers you to is a pile of maths that I don't really understand, but I wouldn't expect it to result in a correct answer increasing your score or an incorrect answer decreasing it...

(2016-03-24, 5:52 pm)pm215 Wrote:

(2016-03-24, 2:24 pm)zx573 Wrote: You can lose points for correct answers still as far as I understand (and get points for incorrect answers).

Why do you think that? The Item Response Theory stuff that the JLPT info about scaling refers you to is a pile of maths that I don't really understand, but I wouldn't expect it to result in a correct answer increasing your score or an incorrect answer decreasing it...

After rereading the IRT explanation again, I think I might have assumed the "possible to miss points on correct questions" bit, but this is what I was thinking of:

Quote:Scaled  scores  are  determined  mathematically  based  on  “answering  patterns”  of  how  examinees  answer  particular  questions  (correctly  or  incorrectly).  For  example,  a  test  consisting  of  10  questions  (items)  has  a  maximum of 1024 answering patterns (210 patterns). For the scaled-score calculation process for the new test, based  on  these  answering  patterns  Japanese-language  proficiency  of  examinees  is  positioned  on  a  scale  between    0    and    60    points    for    one    scoring    section    (0-120    points    for    Language    Knowledge    [Vocabulary/Grammar]・Reading  for  N4  and  N5).  Because  the  maximum  1024  answering  patterns  of  a  test  consisting  of  10  questions  (actual  exams  have  more  questions)  are  categorized  into  61  groups,  scaled  scores  sometimes become identical for different answering patterns. Therefore, scaled scores can be identical for two examinees  even  when  the  number  of  questions  they  correctly  answer  or  their  answering  pattern  does  not  match.

If their scaled scores are identical but the number of questions they answer correctly differ, then that implies to me that they either weigh certain questions differently (probably the most likely case after rereading it), or you sometimes get assigned to a matrix where you might lose (or gain) some points somewhere.

Without knowing the exact details of how they calculate things, I think either of those are possible.

Edit: I read up some papers on IRT a little bit. So I was wrong about being able to lose points for incorrect answers (most likely). It seems like the way points for each problem is determined is parameters like difficulty of question and chance of guessing question correctly, and probably a few other parameters that I don't know of (different models exist, and I don't know what they're using exactly).

This paper has some good examples that should be easy to understand even if you aren't good at math (the first half, second half gets more mathy): http://www.creative-wisdom.com/computer/sas/IRT.pdf

Sorry for spreading bad information based on my misunderstanding.

Yes, I think that sentence is talking about how you might get a higher score for answering one difficult question correctly but getting two easy questions wrong than somebody who answered the easy questions correctly and failed the hard one.

The IRT stuff looks really clever -- it simultaneously figures out how difficult each question was and also how good each candidate was from the raw input data, so you don't have to manually set question weightings in advance or anything. The only downside seems to be that the algorithm is a total black box that you can't manually score yourself against.