I just thought of this, I'm studying the Shin Kanzen Master N1 plus making a spreadsheet with the nuances and grammar construction.  I already knew N2 grammar superficially (no what I am calling nuances between similar forms). If I want to study for N1, should I do the same work with the N2 grammar?  I shutter at the thought since it takes such a long time to organize my notes, but if I have to do it,  I'll start the work over a period of time.  I spent all my time on consumption of Japanese media and not production that I am weak in this area all over.

Can you show an example of how you do this actually on a spreadsheet? Just for 1 grammar point will suffice. I'm just curious as I just usually read the grammar points and don't make any notes on it. Maybe doing do will help with my studies in general thanks in advanced.

(2016-02-20, 7:04 pm)RawrPk Wrote: Can you show an example of how you do this actually on a spreadsheet? Just for 1 grammar point will suffice. I'm just curious as I just usually read the grammar points and don't make any notes on it. Maybe doing do will help with my studies in general thanks in advanced.

I don't have the spreadsheet with me, but what I started doing was one entry for each point, with the schema grammar point/meaning/construction/nuance/examples.  My focus will be on construction and nuance since I already know the general meaning.  I'll load this into anki.  It feels like I am studying all over again since I focused on the example sentences and meaning the first time around.

This will take a while if I have to repeat this for the N2 grammar points like I asked in the above post.

(2016-02-20, 8:26 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 7:04 pm)RawrPk Wrote: Can you show an example of how you do this actually on a spreadsheet? Just for 1 grammar point will suffice. I'm just curious as I just usually read the grammar points and don't make any notes on it. Maybe doing do will help with my studies in general thanks in advanced.

I don't have the spreadsheet with me, but what I started doing was one entry for each point, with the schema grammar point/meaning/construction/nuance/examples.  My focus will be on construction and nuance since I already know the general meaning.  I'll load this into anki.  It feels like I am studying all over again since I focused on the example sentences and meaning the first time around.

This will take a while if I have to repeat this for the N2 grammar points like I asked in the above post.

If you are ganna load them into anki, I would instead format them more similar to tradition flashcards. I.e. On the front have questions like the following
-What is the difference between grammar A, B & C
-In which situation would you use grammar point B
-What is the formal equalavant of C

etc or something like that depending on the grammar point.
That way you are focused only on one thing. If there is alot of information its hard to be truthful of what you actually knew and got right, and also hard to recall lots of information.

I think my preferred grammar flashcard format for JLPT purposes is to have the grammar itself on the front, and then meaning/notes/how it connects up/example sentences on the back. I think this works because the memory trigger you get in the exam is just the grammar fragment and you need to be able to remember from that all the details. As long as you're harsh about grading your answers it works out ok (and since there are only a couple of hundred cards tops in a grammar deck it doesn't matter if your recall rate is low, you're still not going to pile up unmanageable review workload). I'm currently working with a 'production' type grammar deck but I'm definitely thinking about switching it out for a recognition format.

(2016-02-21, 7:40 am)pm215 Wrote: I think my preferred grammar flashcard format for JLPT purposes is to have the grammar itself on the front, and then meaning/notes/how it connects up/example sentences on the back. I think this works because the memory trigger you get in the exam is just the grammar fragment and you need to be able to remember from that all the details. As long as you're harsh about grading your answers it works out ok (and since there are only a couple of hundred cards tops in a grammar deck it doesn't matter if your recall rate is low, you're still not going to pile up unmanageable review workload). I'm currently working with a 'production' type grammar deck but I'm definitely thinking about switching it out for a recognition format.

That is the reason I am doing it this way.  Since I already generally know the meaning, I'll focus on the construction and nuances.

I've seen in Kanzen Master 意向や働きかけの文が来ない。What does this mean.  Just by the definition of the words, I'm a bit confused.

(2016-02-20, 11:08 am)foreverunclean Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 9:37 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 7:38 am)foreverunclean Wrote:

(2016-02-19, 5:06 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapanes.../playlists

I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.

I already bought どんなとき as a ebook.  I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet.  For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend?  Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help.  It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.

Edit:  there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary.  If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.

Could you post a link to where the english edition is available to purchase? 
If I want english explanations of grammar I usually use this site http://www.imabi.net

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Handbook-Japanes...AD1JEFPMZQ

Awesome! Thanks! Seem's great but I'll be resisting buying it as I have too many grammar books

I have way too many grammar books, so I'm already beyond saving. Out of curiosity, I ordered the EN version of 日本語文型辞典. It should come in a few days, I'll give some impressions/thoughts when I get it. I'm curious to see if it's better or worse than どんなとき as well as the the JP version of the book. If it's as good as the JP version of 日本語文型辞典, then it would be a great resource for beginning/intermediate level learners before they go monolingual.

(2016-02-28, 12:48 pm)rich_f Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 11:08 am)foreverunclean Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 9:37 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 7:38 am)foreverunclean Wrote:

(2016-02-19, 5:06 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote: I already bought どんなとき as a ebook.  I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet.  For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend?  Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help.  It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.

Edit:  there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary.  If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.

Could you post a link to where the english edition is available to purchase? 
If I want english explanations of grammar I usually use this site http://www.imabi.net

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Handbook-Japanes...AD1JEFPMZQ

Awesome! Thanks! Seem's great but I'll be resisting buying it as I have too many grammar books

I have way too many grammar books, so I'm already beyond saving. Out of curiosity, I ordered the EN version of 日本語文型辞典. It should come in a few days, I'll give some impressions/thoughts when I get it. I'm curious to see if it's better or worse than どんなとき as well as the the JP version of the book. If it's as good as the JP version of 日本語文型辞典, then it would be a great resource for beginning/intermediate level learners before they go monolingual.

Thanks!  I look forward to your impressions of the book.  I've been using どんなとき but was thinking of getting this book too if it's useful.

(2016-03-01, 10:30 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-02-28, 12:48 pm)rich_f Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 11:08 am)foreverunclean Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 9:37 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-02-20, 7:38 am)foreverunclean Wrote: Could you post a link to where the english edition is available to purchase? 
If I want english explanations of grammar I usually use this site http://www.imabi.net

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Handbook-Japanes...AD1JEFPMZQ

Awesome! Thanks! Seem's great but I'll be resisting buying it as I have too many grammar books

I have way too many grammar books, so I'm already beyond saving. Out of curiosity, I ordered the EN version of 日本語文型辞典. It should come in a few days, I'll give some impressions/thoughts when I get it. I'm curious to see if it's better or worse than どんなとき as well as the the JP version of the book. If it's as good as the JP version of 日本語文型辞典, then it would be a great resource for beginning/intermediate level learners before they go monolingual.

Thanks!  I look forward to your impressions of the book.  I've been using どんなとき but was thinking of getting this book too if it's useful.

TL;DR: As a long time fan of どんなとき, I can't recommend it over 日本語文型辞典's EN version. Even after only looking at it for about an hour or so, it's obvious that the EN version of 日本語文型辞典 is clearly better (with caveats below for monolingual learners.)

So it just showed up a little while ago, and giving it a cursory once-over, it's the same as the JP version of 日本語文型辞典, but with straight-up EN translations added for definitions and example sentences, and JP definitions have been removed. Some of you will like that, some of you will hate that.

For beginners and for the really esoteric stuff, that's a good thing. But if you're used to learning monolingually, you will probably be dissatisfied that they ditched the JP definitions completely, and you should stick with the old version. 

My guess is that they did it to keep the page count roughly the same. (690-ish for the old version, a little over 730 pages for the EN version.) If they had kept the JP definitions in, I bet it would have easily boosted over the 1,000 page barrier.

If you really need the JP definitions, buy the old version. There really isn't any other difference between the two books that I can find. Even the example sentences are the same. (Also, the old version is a little cheaper.)

I think they did an excellent job on the EN translations I've read so far, though. The language is clear and easily understandable, no "weird English" is in there that I could find from scanning through it, and it's just overall much more thorough than どんなとき.

Look at にたえない's definition. (I picked it at random.)

どんなとき: (can't bear) 1)Inability to bear seeing or hearing something unpleasant. 2) Only appends to some limited verbs such as 見る and 聞く, etc.

日本語文型辞典: 1) Expresses the meaning that it is hard to see or bear something because its state is dreadful. Can be used with a few specific types of verbs, such as 見る, 読む, and 正視する. 2) With some limited types of nouns, such as 感謝 (gratitude) and 感激 ((the feeling of being) deeply moved), Nにたえない is used to emphasize the meaning of the noun. Usually used in formal speech.

So... どんなとき doesn't even include the second definition for use in formal speech, which pops up every now and then. And the "second" definition it has is just to explain what verbs it takes. 

I just think the 日本語文型辞典 is overall easier to comprehend and is more thorough, without becoming a novel. It also has EN translations of example sentences, which you won't get from the older version of 日本語文型辞典, or from どんなとき either! Sentence miners who want EN translations will love this bit.

In short, you get coverage of "almost 3,000 grammar points" (according to the obi), you get solid EN definitions, EN sentence translations, JP editorial staff, and the book comes in around 3,200 yen. (Dirt cheap, but still high quality.) So all of the goodness of 日本語文型辞典, but with an easier approach to the contents for people who can't handle monolingual learning yet.

So I'd say it's not only better than どんなとき, it's probably the best grammar dictionary out there now for anyone wanting to learn Japanese. (Yes, it's better than the DoJG series, because it costs 1/3 the price, and doesn't skimp on coverage, but doesn't overwhelm, either.) Also, unlike どんなとき, the definitions are clearer and slightly more verbose.

One thing どんなとき does that I like is that it provides a JLPT level next to each definition. (N1, N2, N4, etc.) That's handy!

The only weak points for this EN edition of 日本語文型辞典 are for monolingual learners, or people who speak Korean or Chinese, and can't speak English well enough to benefit from the book. They should stick with the monolingual version of 日本語文型辞典, or どんなとき if they're only N5-N3 level. 

Another really nice thing they did-- they added a drifting black index mark on the side of each page so you can look up words faster.

I didn't mean to write a book, but it's a fine grammar dictionary. If you're buying one, and you need EN support, then this should be it. I wish I had this when I was first starting out!

にたいえない　×
にたえない　○

Yeah, the reply form is bugged on my browser, so I made that mistake. I can't see what I'm typing when I do a full reply when I type in Japanese until I hit Enter. So yeah, spelling mistake. I fixed it.

Thanks for the review.  It looks good and I'm going to pick up a copy.  My vocabulary is fairly large and I read Japanese nicely (at least Light Novels) but when it comes to definitions and nuances between points, I find the English helps.

By the way, does anyone know the answer to my question a few posts up about what a 働きかけの文 is?  I find it in many Shin Kanzen Master explanations where these sentences can or can not be used with certain grammar.

>By the way, does anyone know the answer to my question a few posts up about what a 働きかけの文 is? I find it in many Shin Kanzen Master explanations where these sentences can or can not be used with certain grammar.
What word are you looking at exactly? You could just look that up in どんなとき and I'm pretty sure it'll be in the explanation. Usually it's something along the lines of "Phrases expressing volitional action or words of volition, such as よう or つもり, commands, (etc) cannot follow".

働きかけの文 is about influencing someone else.
orders, requests, suggestions...

Thanks, I kind of thought it was something like that but wasn't sure.  Correlating with どんなとき or another grammar source would have been a good idea.

I got the book.  It seems pretty good.  So I think I'm okay on the nuance aspect of the grammar points.  But I ran into another problem.  It's the back end of the Shin Kanzen Master N1 book.  The sections which start out with tenses and such.  It seems pretty difficult.  Is there any other book or workbook that can suppliment these sections and make them clearer/more detail?  Or would I just have to get a tutor if I don't understand something?

(2016-03-06, 3:15 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote: I got the book.  It seems pretty good.  So I think I'm okay on the nuance aspect of the grammar points.  But I ran into another problem.  It's the back end of the Shin Kanzen Master N1 book.  The sections which start out with tenses and such.  It seems pretty difficult.  Is there any other book or workbook that can suppliment these sections and make them clearer/more detail?  Or would I just have to get a tutor if I don't understand something?

Just to be a bit clearer on what I am having trouble with, it's Shin Kanzen Master N1 from page 120 on.  I did the first 3 sections from there on poorly.  Things like tense and the 3rd section where they discuss point of view confuses me.  I understand transitive and intransitive verbs but am unsure what you have to keep consistent in the problems.  If a tutor is in order, can anyone recommend one that would be willing to go through these sections with me?  Do the ones on JOI do stuff like that?  Or like I said, if there is another book or resource for this information, please let me know. I looked at Soumatoume N1  Grammar but it doesn't go into these subjects.

(2016-03-07, 3:53 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-06, 3:15 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote: I got the book.  It seems pretty good.  So I think I'm okay on the nuance aspect of the grammar points.  But I ran into another problem.  It's the back end of the Shin Kanzen Master N1 book.  The sections which start out with tenses and such.  It seems pretty difficult.  Is there any other book or workbook that can suppliment these sections and make them clearer/more detail?  Or would I just have to get a tutor if I don't understand something?

Just to be a bit clearer on what I am having trouble with, it's Shin Kanzen Master N1 from page 120 on.  I did the first 3 sections from there on poorly.  Things like tense and the 3rd section where they discuss point of view confuses me.  I understand transitive and intransitive verbs but am unsure what you have to keep consistent in the problems.  If a tutor is in order, can anyone recommend one that would be willing to go through these sections with me?  Do the ones on JOI do stuff like that?  Or like I said, if there is another book or resource for this information, please let me know. I looked at Soumatoume N1  Grammar but it doesn't go into these subjects.

The JOI ones would be able to help, I think, IF you did a private lesson. They won't cover this material in the group lessons. They generally stick to the material in the front of KZM N1 grammar.

If you can't get any help online, this looks like the perfect place to use a tutor, TBH. They're great for answering those "WTF is this???" questions.

(2016-03-07, 4:35 pm)rich_f Wrote:

(2016-03-07, 3:53 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-06, 3:15 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote: I got the book.  It seems pretty good.  So I think I'm okay on the nuance aspect of the grammar points.  But I ran into another problem.  It's the back end of the Shin Kanzen Master N1 book.  The sections which start out with tenses and such.  It seems pretty difficult.  Is there any other book or workbook that can suppliment these sections and make them clearer/more detail?  Or would I just have to get a tutor if I don't understand something?

Just to be a bit clearer on what I am having trouble with, it's Shin Kanzen Master N1 from page 120 on.  I did the first 3 sections from there on poorly.  Things like tense and the 3rd section where they discuss point of view confuses me.  I understand transitive and intransitive verbs but am unsure what you have to keep consistent in the problems.  If a tutor is in order, can anyone recommend one that would be willing to go through these sections with me?  Do the ones on JOI do stuff like that?  Or like I said, if there is another book or resource for this information, please let me know. I looked at Soumatoume N1  Grammar but it doesn't go into these subjects.

The JOI ones would be able to help, I think, IF you did a private lesson. They won't cover this material in the group lessons. They generally stick to the material in the front of KZM N1 grammar.

If you can't get any help online, this looks like the perfect place to use a tutor, TBH. They're great for answering those "WTF is this???" questions.

I would do private tutoring.  The stuff in the back seems important for the test.  By the way, what is TBH?

TBH = to be honest

(2016-03-07, 4:57 pm)RawrPk Wrote: TBH = to be honest

Thanks.  I contacted JOI with my requirements.  I'll see what they have to say.  This is the first time I have really gotten stuck in learning Japanese.

(2016-03-07, 5:19 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-07, 4:57 pm)RawrPk Wrote: TBH = to be honest

Thanks.  I contacted JOI with my requirements.  I'll see what they have to say.  This is the first time I have really gotten stuck in learning Japanese.

Is there any other organization besides JOI that provides tutors?  It seems that they may bit a bit over subscribed with private lessons and possible that they can't accomodate me.

(2016-03-08, 8:25 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-07, 5:19 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-07, 4:57 pm)RawrPk Wrote: TBH = to be honest

Thanks.  I contacted JOI with my requirements.  I'll see what they have to say.  This is the first time I have really gotten stuck in learning Japanese.

Is there any other organization besides JOI that provides tutors?  It seems that they may bit a bit over subscribed with private lessons and possible that they can't accomodate me.

Italki:
https://www.italki.com/teachers/japanese

I've never used it, but some people here have.

(2016-03-08, 10:33 am)rich_f Wrote:

(2016-03-08, 8:25 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-07, 5:19 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:

(2016-03-07, 4:57 pm)RawrPk Wrote: TBH = to be honest

Thanks.  I contacted JOI with my requirements.  I'll see what they have to say.  This is the first time I have really gotten stuck in learning Japanese.

Is there any other organization besides JOI that provides tutors?  It seems that they may bit a bit over subscribed with private lessons and possible that they can't accomodate me.

Italki:
https://www.italki.com/teachers/japanese

I've never used it, but some people here have.

Thanks.  It seems many of the teachers are oriented to beginners though.  I messaged 2 of them.  I guess I'll see how it goes.  JOI is good because they use Kanzen Master as a standard text.  Hopefully they won't turn me down.