While reading manga I got a bit puzzled about Japanese  forms of politeness.

Is it obligatory  to use specific levels of politeness in certain situations or you can use them according o your own choice? 

I am getting feeling that grammar is just plain wrong and  it is not about politeness at all but about intimacy/feelings.
and it should be labeled as "levels of intimacy" not "levels of politeness."
This fits general trend of japanese language to express emotions.

[Zgarbas]

The rules for levels of politeness are quite complex and systematic, though you can add your own nuance to it at times (manga often uses uncommon politeness levels for the sake of entertainment, intimacy lowers politeness levels, foreigners are allowed more leeway since they're considered too ignorant to get it).

Usually it is set by the situation and it is a matter of politeness, but intimacy also plays a part. It's subordinate to the situation though (so for example I speak very casually to my colleagues but formally if we're in a classroom setting). Think of anything below です・ます as a sentence that starts with 'dude'. If you wouldn't use 'dude' in a sentence in English, then you wouldn't use informal language in Japanese either. Above です・ます it depends entirely on the situation and intimacy has nothing to do with it, as it's language that you use with customers/bosses/teachers/etc. Beginners are usually encouraged to learn です・ます before anything as that's the safest route.

My question was not that:
It was whether this is requirement of language itself which can be simply discarded as it holds no information or this is about expressing what you really think and should be taken into account.
what matter is that if you are in the classroom do you speak formally because you have to or because you feel like that.
I wouldn't use "dude" on my friends because that is mild derogatory term for me.

[Zgarbas]

Precisely! It's mildly derogatory to speak below the socially acceptable politeness level

It is not an aspect of the language which can be discarded.

for me, term "dude" is derogatory regardless of context . so it cannot be used as example here.

you still don't understand what I say. if this is rule of language it can be discarded as it holds no information.
my question is if someone is speaking in certain way can it be used to understand feelings of that person.

we can compare it with -chan as you can say onii or onii-chan but neither is required to be used and thus depending of choice of word we can understand feelings towards that person
so question si whether politeness works in same way.

Yes, politeness levels are very similar to which honorific you attach to a name and when (although not always completely parallel). Sometimes the social setting demands a certain politeness level so it isn't a strict rule, but in private conversations choice of politeness level often reflects the speaker's relationship with the person they're talking to.

Fiction (including and perhaps especially anime and manga) can get a little tricky because some characters don't use politeness in the normal way but instead always speak in a stereotypical way.

So in fiction you have a mix of the social situation, what the author is trying to convey about the character, and the characters relationship with each other all factored in to what level of politeness is used. You don't want to ignore it completely, but as a beginner it may be difficult to understand how these three factors figure into any given conversation.

I think you're trying to ask if 1) people use polite forms of language because it's the rule and all people have to or 2) people use polite forms of language because they want to in order to express themselves and their feelings on a given topic / toward a given person. Is that right? If that is in fact what you are asking, it's both.

[Zgarbas]

(2016-02-07, 11:52 pm)Digix Wrote: for me, term "dude"  is derogatory regardless of context . so it cannot be used as example here.

you still don't understand what I say. if this is rule of language it can be discarded as it holds no information.
my question is if someone is speaking in certain way can it be used to understand feelings of that person.

we can compare it with -chan as you can say onii  or onii-chan but neither is required to be used and thus depending of choice of word we can understand feelings towards that person
so question si whether politeness works in same way.

Your opinion of the word dude carries no information about the language and thus it can be discarded.

The level of formality holds the information of your social status. If you do not reflect your social status in your language, then your words will hold the information 'I have no idea about the social structure of your culture, feel free to disregard my opinion' and cancel out any information you might be trying to share.

(2016-02-08, 8:08 am)Zgarbas Wrote:

(2016-02-07, 11:52 pm)Digix Wrote: for me, term "dude"  is derogatory regardless of context . so it cannot be used as example here.

you still don't understand what I say. if this is rule of language it can be discarded as it holds no information.
my question is if someone is speaking in certain way can it be used to understand feelings of that person.

we can compare it with -chan as you can say onii  or onii-chan but neither is required to be used and thus depending of choice of word we can understand feelings towards that person
so question si whether politeness works in same way.

Your opinion of the word dude carries no information about the language and thus it can be discarded.

The level of formality holds the information of your social status. If you do not reflect your social status in your language, then your words will hold the information 'I have no idea about the social structure of your culture, feel free to disregard my opinion' and cancel out any information you might be trying to share.

I don't think this is relevant to language because we all have personal feelings towards different words. I just explained that your example is not good for me.

what you say looks quite disappointing to me, because in my opinion social status should not be ever mentioned because we are all equal. 
If I do not reflect socisl status in my language it is because I reject concept of social status itself.

(2016-02-08, 3:27 pm)Digix Wrote:

(2016-02-08, 8:08 am)Zgarbas Wrote:

(2016-02-07, 11:52 pm)Digix Wrote: for me, term "dude"  is derogatory regardless of context . so it cannot be used as example here.

you still don't understand what I say. if this is rule of language it can be discarded as it holds no information.
my question is if someone is speaking in certain way can it be used to understand feelings of that person.

we can compare it with -chan as you can say onii  or onii-chan but neither is required to be used and thus depending of choice of word we can understand feelings towards that person
so question si whether politeness works in same way.

Your opinion of the word dude carries no information about the language and thus it can be discarded.

The level of formality holds the information of your social status. If you do not reflect your social status in your language, then your words will hold the information 'I have no idea about the social structure of your culture, feel free to disregard my opinion' and cancel out any information you might be trying to share.

I don't think this is relevant to language because we all have personal feelings towards different words. I just explained that your example is not good for me.

what you say looks quite disappointing to me, because in my opinion social status should not be ever mentioned because we are all equal. 
If I do not reflect socisl status in my language it is because I reject concept of social status itself.

If you try to make language fit your own personal viewpoints and beliefs, I'm afraid you'll always find yourself on the losing end of the deal.  While you might not like it very much, the fact remains that such politeness levels are deeply ingrained in both the language and culture, and if you try to ignore all that because of your own opinions, it's inevitable that your progress with Japanese will be affected for the worse.  The purpose and uses of polite language in Japanese merit much more discussion than a forum post was ever meant for, but at the very least, realize that using polite language is in no way a concession of inferiority.  Far from it, it's part of the oil that keeps the gears of society turning, rather than a way to keep Japanese society stratified.  While such concepts might not be as large of a part of your own culture, as I'm sure you already know, different cultures place emphasis on different areas.

All said, you have to be willing to meet the language and culture where they're at, instead of where you wish they were. You have to know the rules before you can break them, after all.

You might find this useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific_...nese#Usage

wiki Wrote:Mastery of politeness and honorifics is important for functioning in Japanese society. Not speaking politely enough can be insulting, and speaking too politely can be distancing (and therefore also insulting) or seem sarcastic.

To answer OP question: Yes, in Japanese culture, it is obligatory to use specific levels of politeness in certain situations.

(2016-02-08, 3:27 pm)Digix Wrote: I don't think this is relevant to language because we all have personal feelings towards different words. I just explained that your example is not good for me.

what you say looks quite disappointing to me, because in my opinion social status should not be ever mentioned because we are all equal. 
If I do not reflect socisl status in my language it is because I reject concept of social status itself.

Japanese society doesn't hold the same beliefs unfortunately.

(2016-02-08, 5:32 pm)RawrPk Wrote: You might find this useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific_...nese#Usage

wiki Wrote:Mastery of politeness and honorifics is important for functioning in Japanese society. Not speaking politely enough can be insulting, and speaking too politely can be distancing (and therefore also insulting) or seem sarcastic.

To answer OP question: Yes, in Japanese culture, it is obligatory  to use specific levels of politeness in certain situations.

(2016-02-08, 3:27 pm)Digix Wrote: I don't think this is relevant to language because we all have personal feelings towards different words. I just explained that your example is not good for me.

what you say looks quite disappointing to me, because in my opinion social status should not be ever mentioned because we are all equal. 
If I do not reflect socisl status in my language it is because I reject concept of social status itself.

Japanese society doesn't hold the same beliefs unfortunately.

This is only true for Japanese people. Foreigners can do whatever the hell they want, because dirty ignorant foreigners can't be functioning members of society anyway. That's a Japanese-only club.

Best start brushing up on your filthy yankee Japanese and drinking-chuuhi-in-the-street skills.

You're taking it the wrong way. I was just stating that different cultures don't see all as equal. No need to bite my head off.

Just wouldn't want any young learners of Japanese to get caught up in thinking that mastering polite / honorific language is going to make any real difference on the ground 

Of course once you hit advanced Japanese it becomes sort of silly if you can't properly use polite language, but by that point it shouldn't require any real studying or effort to produce it.

Basically, if you're at the level where you're honestly asking whether or not polite language is important for you as a language learner ... than no, it isn't.

(2016-02-07, 8:35 pm)Digix Wrote: I am getting feeling that grammar is just plain wrong and  it is not about politeness at all but about intimacy/feelings.
and it should be labeled as "levels of intimacy" not "levels of politeness."

Keigo means (loosely) "respectful language", so "levels of RESPECT" would be closer.

Now if you meet someone you don't respect, it is up to you to openly show disrespect to that person or not, but do it by choice, not by mistake.

The big problem with politeness is that no (learner) books really cover the etiquette very well for someone that wants to operate in a business world. Using desu/masu is all and good, hell you can even know some of the higher formal/humble stuff like まいる, but I still find my self at a loss when dealing with business correspondences because I feel like there is probably some kind of social etiquette in the same way when you greet someone with "Hey whats up?" you expect back something like "Not much."

Most recent example I got of this was a rejection email for a job position for a Japanese company. It came from a manager that was higher up than the people I had been talking to and I had no clue how to respond to it because the tone was considerably more business formal than I was use to and had been dealing with from the other people.

Quote:*prior stuff: thanks for applying to our company yada-yada*
関係者とともに慎重に検討いたしました結果、
ご希望に添いかねることになりました。
せっかくのご期待に添えず、申し訳ございません。
何卒ご了承くださいますよう、お願い申し上げます。

末筆ながら、今後のご活躍を心よりお祈り申し上げます。

(2016-02-08, 6:18 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: This is only true for Japanese people. Foreigners can do whatever the hell they want, because dirty ignorant foreigners can't be functioning members of society anyway. That's a Japanese-only club.

Except in the case of getting a job. My recruiter friends always bitch about missing placements because a foreigner with otherwise high-level Japanese doesn't have enough of a grasp on speaking to external companies/clients to be hired.

(2016-02-08, 8:11 pm)vix86 Wrote: The big problem with politeness is that no (learner) books really cover the etiquette very well for someone that wants to operate in a business world. Using desu/masu is all and good, hell you can even know some of the higher formal/humble stuff like まいる, but I still find my self at a loss when dealing with business correspondences because I feel like there is probably some kind of social etiquette in the same way when you greet someone with "Hey whats up?" you expect back something like "Not much."

Most recent example I got of this was a rejection email for a job position for a Japanese company. It came from a manager that was higher up than the people I had been talking to and I had no clue how to respond to it because the tone was considerably more business formal than I was use to and had been dealing with from the other people.

Quote:*prior stuff: thanks for applying to our company yada-yada*
関係者とともに慎重に検討いたしました結果、
ご希望に添いかねることになりました。
せっかくのご期待に添えず、申し訳ございません。
何卒ご了承くださいますよう、お願い申し上げます。

末筆ながら、今後のご活躍を心よりお祈り申し上げます。

I've been thinking that a class in business correspondence or professional etiquette would be useful when I go to Japan; I just don't understand 尊敬語 and 謙譲語 well enough to use it.

@Topic
As the others above have stated, respectful language isn't voluntary, if you want to be in any important area of society (networking beyond friends, basically). I don't know where you're from, but I've always likened it to a more extreme version of how speech works in the Southern US (and most of the English speaking world, I'd imagine, but it's much more clear and important around here): you're casual with friends and family, polite to everyone else, humble/kiss-ass to superiors (depends on how you see humility). Failure to meet the expected politeness level basically makes you look like an uncultured fool, or just rude; people you don't know won't have a favorable opinion of you if you ignore these things. That doesn't necessarily mean you're being respectful of the person you're talking to (my friend from Ohio told me she's always been really shocked at how nicely a Southerner can tell someone to shove something somewhere painful), but it's respectful of society itself.

I don't have any personal experience with the 'gaijin won't get it, so it's okay' mentality, but I've heard about it enough to expect that it's true (same as you 'can't expect a Yankee to be polite'); nevertheless, it's important that you try, because long term formal relationships are aided immensely by the impression 'this person tries'.
Of course, that's only important if such a relationship exists, but I see it like telling an English learner that saying 'yes, sir', 'no, sir', and 'thank you very much' give a better impression.

There is this book, "Japanese Respect Language When, Why, and How to use it Successfully". But based on the Tofugu review, it's got really weird formatting. The review also states it's not for beginners.

http://www.tofugu.com/reviews/japanese-r...-language/

Google Books preview

I'm sure there are better books out there though.

[Zgarbas]

(2016-02-08, 8:11 pm)vix86 Wrote:

Quote:*prior stuff: thanks for applying to our company yada-yada*
関係者とともに慎重に検討いたしました結果、
ご希望に添いかねることになりました。
せっかくのご期待に添えず、申し訳ございません。
何卒ご了承くださいますよう、お願い申し上げます。

末筆ながら、今後のご活躍を心よりお祈り申し上げます。

The way I read it you're supposed to reply a thank you for considering my application and end it at that. He's just phrasing the rejection in a really formal manner to compensate for the negative thing he's telling you.

(2016-02-08, 11:05 pm)sholum Wrote: Of course, that's only important if such a relationship exists, but I see it like telling an English learner that saying 'yes, sir', 'no, sir', and 'thank you very much' give a better impression.

That's kind of a cultural thing. I can't tell you how many times I've been told myself or seen someone told to quit saying 'sir'.
It's a weird thing because I work as a cook, and it's 'kitchen culture' to use 'yes, sir'/'no, sir' to men, 'yes, ma'am'/'no, ma'am' to women and of course 'yes, chef'/'no, chef' to the head chef.

Women won't usually say anything to your face, but boy do they get mad about being called ma'am. But you can't exactly call a 37 year old married woman 'Miss' now can you?

Anyway, it's something of Yankee culture (up here in New England) to detest being 'yessirred'. People that have never been near a military base love adopting the sergeant's catchphrase "Don't call me sir, I work for a living."


And just in case you're wondering, there is, yes, just as much regional variance in Japan, or at least I'm convinced that there is. I've had a few different correspondence exchanges (all of which have faded out now, alas) and not only are the different individuals very different in their politeness, but their descriptions of their lives vary just as much. Some people rarely use　です・ますforms and some people use them -all day-.
(Of course it makes sense that if you're in a city, your local grocer is a complete stranger, while if you're in a rural village you'll probably have trouble finding anyone anywhere who isn't a friend or a relation so even when you go shopping you might not use much in the way of polite speech).

It's probably best to learn Tokyo patterns for politeness though since they should (I think) be similar to most other cities. Certainly at the business level I'd expect everyone to mimic Tokyo patterns anyway, though daily life would still have variances. And even if you were to find yourself in a rural village, well... you wouldn't be in the position of someone -raised- in that rural village so how -they- speak is going to be different to how a visitor should speak.

(2016-02-08, 11:47 pm)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: And just in case you're wondering, there is, yes, just as much regional variance in Japan, or at least I'm convinced that there is. I've had a few different correspondence exchanges (all of which have faded out now, alas) and not only are the different individuals very different in their politeness, but their descriptions of their lives vary just as much. Some people rarely use　です・ますforms and some people use them -all day-.
(Of course it makes sense that if you're in a city, your local grocer is a complete stranger, while if you're in a rural village you'll probably have trouble finding anyone anywhere who isn't a friend or a relation so even when you go shopping you might not use much in the way of polite speech).

Regional variance in polite language usage does exist, and it's more than just an urban-rural divide. Certain regions are often described as "無敬語" and in them keigo usage (including です・ます) tends to be limited to the most formal occasions, whereas in other regions even the rural local dialects have their own distinct keigo forms. The only attempt to map those regions I've come across is this survey, where the respondents were asked whether or not a certain misused keigo phrase sounded off to them and the prefectures were grouped based on whether their answers were mostly correct (blue), wrong (yellow) or split evenly between the two (red). Here we see that, aside from a few exceptions, the boundary between "polite" and "impolite" regions seems to match the one between Western and Eastern Japanese pretty closely. The Tokyo area is well known as an island of Western Japanese influence in a sea of Eastern Japanese, and it's pretty clear that the higher the politeness level in Standard Japanese the more Western Japanese influence you see (the -ん negative, -とう instead of -たく, おる instead of いる, etc.). So apparently in most of Western Japan keigo has long been a natural feature of the language, whereas in Eastern Japan it's more of a recently introduced feature of a standard imposed from above.

From All what was said and examples i found, it seem that it is about familiarity after all. Logic is similar to other languages.
I came to this conclusion because both parties always use same language so you cant tell who is superior except when very polite or very rude language is used conversation will be asymmetric.
If it was about status higher status person woud reply with less polite version. to display his superiority.

If you say something to someone in casual speech he is supposed to reply in same way if you use casual language other party has to use it too and thus admit being your friend. Replying with more polite form means rejection of friendship, what explains why you cant ever refer to your boss in casual language in front of other people or use casual language in official conversations as it will be seen as form of corruption.

(2016-02-09, 7:44 am)Digix Wrote: From All what was said and examples i found, it seem that it is about familiarity after all. Logic is similar to other languages.
I came to this conclusion because both parties always use same language so you cant tell who is superior except when very polite or very rude language is used conversation will be asymmetric.
If it was about status higher status person woud reply with less polite version. to display his superiority.

If you say something to someone in casual speech he is supposed to reply in same way if you use casual language other party has to use it too and thus admit being your friend. Replying with more polite form means rejection of friendship, what explains why you cant ever refer to your boss in casual language in front of other people or use casual language in official conversations as it will be seen as form of corruption.

What? There's plenty of uneven relationships where one party will constantly use a different kind of speech to the other, even outside of "very polite" and "very rude" language as you put it.

The obvious one is a friendly relationship between people of significantly different ages. For example, I've met one of my friend's parents a few times and we get on well, but they're nearly three times my age. They speak to me in mostly plain form, I speak to them with mostly です・ます. Another example is my old dorm manager (管理人). We got on really well, but again he was three times my age and in a position of authority. Plain form for him, です・ます for me. Speech between 先輩・後輩 in 部活・サークル etc is another example.

With the "very polite", are you referring to 尊敬語・謙譲語? I mean, you say it like its uncommon but these forms will be common whether you are working or are a student (most people should fit into one of the two) and you will definitely see a difference in the way the boss/professor and the subordinate/student talk to each other.

Familiarity, the formality of the situation, relative status, regional factors, individual personality... plenty of things will affect the use of polite language. It's really messy and without a definite right answer some of the time but you can't just sum it up as simply as you tried to.

Edit: It gets even more complicated when one party has higher status on one scale but lower on another. Sempai talking to kohai who is older in age (awkward for both lol). Company employee talking to customer who is a child. Etc etc.

Edit 2: If you want to talk about the logic of other languages, look at Korean where the expectation of different types of speech between people with even a small age gap is even more rigid.

(2016-02-09, 8:18 am)Ash_S Wrote:

(2016-02-09, 7:44 am)Digix Wrote: From All what was said and examples i found, it seem that it is about familiarity after all. Logic is similar to other languages.
I came to this conclusion because both parties always use same language so you cant tell who is superior except when very polite or very rude language is used conversation will be asymmetric.
If it was about status higher status person woud reply with less polite version. to display his superiority.

If you say something to someone in casual speech he is supposed to reply in same way if you use casual language other party has to use it too and thus admit being your friend. Replying with more polite form means rejection of friendship, what explains why you cant ever refer to your boss in casual language in front of other people or use casual language in official conversations as it will be seen as form of corruption.

What? There's plenty of uneven relationships where one party will constantly use a different kind of speech to the other, even outside of "very polite" and "very rude" language as you put it.

The obvious one is a friendly relationship between people of significantly different ages. For example, I've met one of my friend's parents a few times and we get on well, but they're nearly three times my age. They speak to me in mostly plain form, I speak to them with mostly です・ます. Another example is my old dorm manager (管理人). We got on really well, but again he was three times my age and in a position of authority. Plain form for him, です・ます for me. Speech between 先輩・後輩 in 部活・サークル etc is another example.

With the "very polite", are you referring to 尊敬語・謙譲語? I mean, you say it like its uncommon but these forms will be common whether you are working or are a student (most people should fit into one of the two) and you will definitely see a difference in the way the boss/professor and the subordinate/student talk to each other.


Edit: It gets even more complicated when one party has higher status on one scale but lower on another. Sempai talking to kohai who is older in age (awkward for both lol). Company employee talking to customer who is a child. Etc etc.

Edit 2: If you want to talk about the logic of other languages, look at Korean where the expectation of different types of speech between people with even a small age gap is even more rigid.

there is no reason why uneven relationships cannot exist. 
but according to other replies it is not necessary that you understand intentions of those people you mention well.

you are one who speaks to them in polite form as your own choice and they may be just wondering why you do that and some probably can be even offended.
I am pretty sure if you used plain for too, they woud react just fine

This looks similar to "yo" and "ne" usage where yo is dominat and nee is submissive statement it does not depend on your overall status but depends on what role you are playing in current situation.

I think when customer is talking to Company employee he will be using plain when he is ordering something but he will be using polite version if he is asking for discount.

I am not sure how valid it is in japan  but anything what implies that you are old is highly offensive in western world, they go as far as banning entire words that were used for ages.
according to anime japan is pretty much same.

If you say it is sometimes awkward there is definitely something wrong with that idea.

speaking about other languages:

Russian language used to add "S" in the end to make words sorter and that was common style within aristocracy, but very rare now.

my native language has singular and plural form of "you"
It is common belief that using singular form is disrespectful but in reality this si all about familiarity, 
as plural form of "I" is used when you distance yourself from your own claim. 
instead of saying "I disagree" you say we disagree so that you either want to avoid blame for your claim or you want to express power of that statement.
English and other languages also have polite forms of speech  when you use question form of sentence.

Quote:Familiarity, the formality of the situation, relative status, regional factors, individual personality... plenty of things will affect the use of polite language. It's really messy and without a definite right answer some of the time but you can't just sum it up as simply as you tried to.

If so, then usage of polite language is, like I said ,dependent on your own choice and attitude not on some language requirements.