This is the hardest post I’ve ever written—I’ve been failing and probably lying to myself.

After 3 years, I haven’t made any real progress. I’ve done RTK lite but never finished the full RTK. I’ve bounced back and forth between kanji damage, and Wanikani. I’ve done some recognition cards, and some production cards. A new method comes out and I try it, but I don't seem to be making progress.

I’ve found myself discouraged, reviews pile up, then I get them down, and the cycle repeats.
Is it my structure, or is Japanese just not for me? I feel like just walking away from it all.

If you've ever been where I am now, and I got yourself out of it, I would love to know what you did because it seems hopeless. I expect to get flamed, but I'm hoping someone out there can get me back on track.

One thing to remember is that kanji isn't Japanese. And by that I mean studying Japanese doesn't equal burning out on kanji drill. Japanese is a grammar, a vocabulary, sounds... all of wich can easily be studied with material with furigana. And you already did RTK lite, you can go pretty far with just that. So you have reached your kanji limit? Fine, but that doesn't mean the Japanese journey has to end. When you put "kanji might be a problem later" vs "I have no motivation now", it's urgent to get rid of the motivation killer at once.

.....

[s0apgun]

Learn real Japanese. RTK is killing your motivation because there's not very many benefits to it besides learning a symbols meaning by itself and possibly writing.

Have you been doing something else in Japanese besides kanji studies? If not, I suggest you try the other aspects of the language like everyone here has mentioned. If you don't already know kana, learn it! You can rote it fairly easily. You don't even need to SRS it as it's not too complicated. Reading is a good way to help reinforce what you learned. Also, with furigana, kanji won't seem like an impossible feat and one day you will once again want to go back into battle with the kanji monster (lol thought a heroic pov of your scenario might brighten your day )

First off, thanks for being so open, because this is exactly the sort of thing that can eat away at a person, especially language-learners. Personally, I think things like this need to be discussed when it comes to learning the language, so even though you've got some pretty negative feelings driving this post, I think you'll find that you're certainly not alone in feeling the way you do.

I'm no stranger to failure myself, and considering that Japanese is sort of "my thing," when I feel I'm making stupid mistakes in the language or get it in my head that I'm not making enough progress, I have a tendency to beat myself up over all that. The usual line of thinking that pops into my head? "You've been studying for all these years, and you STILL got that wrong? You're out of your league, and you've got no business studying Japanese in the first place!"

Writing it out like that, it's easy to see just how many ridiculous holes there are in that sort of thinking, but you know what? In the moment, it sounds like the truth, like you've finally come around to being honest with yourself. But if you take just one step back from that mindset, the entire picture changes. The fact of the matter is, failure (or rather, the feelings associated with it), will try its best to bring distortion to anything it touches.

Couldn't remember that Kanji? You forgot the passive conjugation for that verb? Don't tell me you forgot to add the honorific "o!" While small on their own, we tend to let miniature failures like that pile up in our minds simply because we remember our mistakes far better than our successes. After all, why sweat what you got right? On the other hand, with language learning especially, we have to learn from our mistakes, so naturally, we pay attention to them. While learning from your mistakes is pretty much the cornerstone of the entire process, the problem comes whenever we shift our focus away from the growth that such learning can bring, and onto the mistakes themselves. In other words, if you focus more on your mistakes than what those mistakes can teach you, you've got yourself a one-way ticket to self-depreciating hell.

While it might seem like you're being out of touch with reality or trying to fool yourself, when it gets down to it, the best thing you can do in this sort of situation is to keep your head up and keep plowing ahead. Instead of telling yourself that you'll never learn Kanji, focus on all those areas that you DO know, and remind yourself that you've got access to a whole new world with the language-- a world that not many English speakers have access to at that. Japanese looks like scribbles to my relatives and friends, and even though I still have moments where I'm left scratching my head or blanking on something simple (it took about five tries for me to recognize the word 拾う（ひろう）when my tutor used it the other day, for example), there's a sort of secretive thrill in learning a new language that can help quell the sort of doubt and misgivings that you brought up in your post. The best part, though? If you keep going, you're bound to grow more and more. It'll take time, but if there's anything over five years with the language have taught me, it's that patience and hard work pay off. Big time. Naturally, you have to put out as much effort as you can, and your own progress is bound to be different from that of others, but at the end of the day, you'll find yourself achieving far more than you ever thought possible.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is... savor your victories. Find a study method that works for you, stick with it, and when you start seeing results, celebrate them, no matter how small. Whether it's the first time you get through a whole sentence unaided, guessing the pronunciation of a word you've never seen before correctly, or even finishing your first novel in Japanese, savor that victory, and stash it away in your mind for all those いざという時 when your failures try and convince you that you'll never make it. More than anything, remember that being honest with yourself doesn't mean gut-punching yourself over everything you ever got wrong.

I can't thank everyone enough for the help and support you've given me. I really thought today would be the day I walked away from Japanese...I just felt psychologically beaten. But after reading everyone's comments and suggestions, emotionally, I'm feeling like I want to press forward.

I'm taking a break from kanji for a bit and focusing on other aspects of the language like everyone mentioned. And I really appreciate you Raulsen encouraging me to enjoy the small victories, celebrate them, and not beat myself up over my failures.

I've got some work ahead of me, but thanks to everyone here I feel like I can handle it

I hit similar wall somewhere in the middle of RTK1. I had low retention on mature cards, way lower that many posters here have and it started to wear me off. It was so much work invested and my brain could not handle the remembering part? It felt like a huge waste of time, to learn something just to forget it. 

Also, I hated the fact, that even after so many hours, I did not know anything about actual language... so I started the Tae Kim grammar. Might not be optimal on paper, but it is way more optimal than burning out and giving up completely. It had secondary benefit, while working on the grammar, I have seen with my own eyes the huge difference it makes between words I know the kanji for and words with kanji I have yet to meet in RTK.

Eventually, I ditched the grammar and went with RTK full speed ahead again and in much better mood, because I have seen first-handed that it actually helps you out in your studies (difference between knowing it and experiencing it, I would say).

By the way, I never ever stopped doing reviews. Yes, there were days where I did not learn new cards and that is perfectly fine. But not doing reviews is... something very hard to recover from, I feel. So, if you are down and want to try something else, go for it, but do your reviews.

It is not the end of the world to learn actual japanese alongside RTK. In fact I think it is a nice way to get yourself motivated, because it will make the purpose of learning the full RTK book clear and not just a wild goose chase or a cheap bar trick to show your asian friends. I tried to do the same (but didn't progress much for other reasons), but now I'm doing it all over again with studies alongside this wonderful cheap book called Japanese for Everyone by Gakken and it is working wonders for my motivation.

Just remember that RTK doesn't teach by conventional kanji ordering so that you won't get frustrated to see a kanji in the first lesson of your book and not recognize it besides you being halfway through RTK or something.

@Robik - Thank you--I'm going to seriously look at Tae Kim, and focus on that for a bit. It seems like a great resource.

@Arino - Good suggestion on doing it side by side RTK as well. I think that with Tae Kim will be a little more encouraging.

Again thanks everyone for all the support, from the bottom of my heart, I truly appreciate it.

@ OP: The fact that you even went through RTK lite is better than me! I never finished any form of RTK before but then again I already had 2 years of classroom Japanese exposure (it's not as much ad you think).

As for some free lessons, there is Mangajin scans on this site:
http://www.thespectrum.net/features/mangajin/

Or if you want a more interactive manga style lessons:
http://anime-manga.jp/

These can be used this alongside RTK and Tae Kim. I always used Tae as more of a reference than actual lessons but that is a personal preference.

I found Genki I and II a bit easier to digest than Tae Kim's guide for a beginner.  But it costs money.

Or see if Genki is available at your local library.
https://www.worldcat.org/search?q=bn%3A9...dblist=638

I often look through WorldCat first to see if there is an option to borrow the book instead.

You shouldn't stop learning kanji, you should just stop learning them individually. Learn them with words. Tae Kim uses kanji in his guide, you could just read through that.

Buddy, I studied only Romaji and speaking with natives here was the only thing I could do for 3-4 years.
I had no options to be true, no one around me spoke proper English.
It was not untill last year that I realized that I need to focus on Kanji if I have to stay here longer, that I started to study any serious kanji.
Since I already had the sentence patterns and oral vocabulary usage through speaking, I was able to pick up on written language much quicker than usual.
I passed N2 last July, appeared for N1 in Dec 2016.
I am hoping to pass it when results are out this month
So my two cents, just concentrate on making progress in spoken language, use romaji to study.
When you go ahead, you will realize that you do not need any books to speak more and more words naturally.

EDIT   Passed the JLPT N1 today with an all "A".
So starting with Romaji approach is not too bad anyhow. You can learn easily and enjoy communicating.
Relying only on written language will give you a handicap w.r.t speed.
Atleast you can ease out on writing reading if you are not enjoying it.

(2016-01-25, 7:40 am)dudeshane01 Wrote: So my two cents, just concentrate on making progress in spoken language, use romaji to study.

Strongly disagree. You should never even use romaji, and instead learn katakana/hiragana immediately. Then learn more and more kanji as you feel comfortable.

.....

(2016-01-25, 11:53 am)john555 Wrote: [Cue the screaming of "there is a separate thread for arguing about using romaji"].

There's a separate thread for arguing about the use of romaji!
...Except we got it closed, so you'll have to find another one.

Still, this isn't a helpful argument to have now, especially on a thread meant to help a specific member overcome a learning slump.

@OP
Like the others, I suggest setting your RTK study aside for a bit (or slow it down a lot) and focusing on other parts of the language. I highly suggest Tae Kim's Guide, but you'll need to know the kana for that (very easy to learn, mildly aggravating to get used to). I've never used any of the textbooks mentioned, but from what I've heard of them, they're good for people who like that style of textbook... Personally, I prefer denser guides with plenty of examples, that's really only practical for digital resources.

Kana invaders is maybe something you wanna do along with learning kana. My katakana is dreadful and I use this as practice. Tofugu has good mnemonics for the kana too.

http://learnjapanesepod.com/kana-invaders/

.....

I'll admit that kana (katakana) isn't something I've mastered and I've been studying Japanese for a few years! Most of the Japanese exposure I've had contained a small amount of katakana so I was able to get away with it. I'm trying to change that now since I started reading manga and noticed a good amount of katakana in it. I eventually got tired of referring to the kana chart as I read lol

Hiragana I'm fine with though.

Kanji will stick much better once you learn actual words with them! So don't worry too much if you are stuck with rtk, especially in production mode (all those confusing, generic, similar keywords ._. ).

I have nothing against romaji but I'm sure you already know at least hiragana by now, and if you don't, you can learn them in two days. My memory sucks, I had a lot o problem with kanji too, but still I've found hiragana very easy to read. I can say I read hiragana almost better than the roman alphabet and I garantee you my memory is really below the average, so you will have no problem at all with them, I'm sure!

Then if you want to put kanji aside for a while, just do it and focus more on the spoken form. Many resources like jpod101 have transcripts in hiragana and even romaji, so all you need to do is to listen and read.

If you want to master the kanji, then try this... take a list of most common kanji (kanji in context, kanji damage, rtk2), and learn a bunch of words with them. So you will actually learn real japanese words, and not keywords.

What burned me out at the time was not kanji by themselves but the fact I was not able to read them! So after all those kanji study (and useless time-consuming writing) with rtk it was depressing to see words with them and to have an hard time to make the real word stick.
So, better to focus on real words from the beginning, at the time I was worried that by not actually writing them I was going to confuse the similar ones, and at the beginning it happened a lot. Then I began to wrote them again and I still confused the similar ones because the fact was that I was not used to see them. So thanks to CureDolly and other users I decided to focus only on reading and vocabulary, and the kanji problem sorted-out by itself as a natural consequence of seeing them a lot in actual japanese words.

I hope this will help you, I know how you feel now, but just don't overthink it, it's enough for rtk... put it aside for now (but continue reviews you already have!) and try to learn japanese words.

Try to learn them phonetically first, like "eigo" (english) or "sensei" (teacher) and then learn the kanjified word, then try to learn other words with the same kanji (so the kanji reading will stick better).

英語→えいご
日本語→にほんご
言語→げんご
単語→たんご
語学→ごがく

So, not only you know 5 words with 語, but you know its onyomi "ご" (go)

Then repeat with other kanji, like 単　たん (tan)

単位　→　たんい
簡単　→　かんたん

言　げん (gen)

言語　→　げんご
宣言　→　せんげん

you will see that there are exceptions, like 無言 where 言 use the second, less common, onyomi "gon" instead of the more common "gen". Or sound alteration like 学校 where がく (gaku) + こう (kou) became がっこう (gakkou).
This is a false problem so don't get scared by this!

You will see that many kanji with similar "signal primitive" share the same onyomi, like

間、関、簡　ー＞　かん (kan)

just try it for a while, and let us know!

I've been through a few language study breakdowns over the years. 

It's important to remember that the Japanese language and your study method are different things. That probably sounds stupid because it's so obvious, but I often conflate them. 

If I were to walk away from an Anki deck that I had been cultivating for a few years, I would probably feel like I was turning my back on the language. But I wouldn't be. My Anki deck does not equal Japanese. I can ditch it and head down a different study path. Even if over time I forget 30-40% of what I learned in the deck, that would still be better than burning out because I stuck with it and giving up the language entirely.

My second piece of advice is to not be afraid of trying other forms of study. Seek out the ideas you've brushed aside. (I used to say grammar isn't real and therefore energy should not be spent on it. But after having a study breakdown, I decided to look into grammar and I'm very happy I did.) Whether it's immersion, romaji, Rosetta Stone, or Anki, try a study method that goes completely against how you think you should be learning. From personal experience, I can say it's surprising how much merit can be found in ideas I completely brushed aside or disagreed with.

Best of luck! 

@RawrPK - Thank you for the websites. I really like the Mangajin, and the anime manga will be a nice break from kanji. Also Kana invaders is going to be a big help

@PotbellyPig I appreciate the advice on Genki. I haven't heard of it before, but I trust you and will look into it.

@dudeshane01 - I never thought about focusing on just the spoken language. I will add that to my new study plan as well.

@sholum - I appreciate you suggesting Tae Kim as well. I plan on reading through it potentially with Genki in case it's over my head.

@cophnia61 - Wow, fantastic idea. Learning kanji that way makes so much sense. Thank you for sharing this technique, definitely going to try it.

@SunlightUnderWater - Extremely insightful. I feel like if I am not doing Anki, sometimes I'm not studying. But you're advice as well as several others is to do something different. I'm definitely going to think how I can do something completely different.

Sorry if I missed anyone. I want to reply everyone and let you all know how much I appreciate your encouragement.

Improving is only a matter of time as long as you choose a viable approach and do it consistenly. For instance, you can't expect to learn it by merely watching anime with English subtitles if you don't understand anything and your Japanese sucks. You'll pick up some expressions if you pay attention, but that's it. But you probably already know that, don't you?

The truth is, 3 years is an incredibly amount of time if you're diligent. If you spend 1-1.5 hours a day on Japanese, RTK is nothing. That's probably more than enough to reach n3 as well. With that much time in your hands, you could not only finish RTK but also RTK 3 by learning a measly 3 kanji a day. (not saying you should worry about RTK3 much though, as you'll be able to pick up new kanji very easily once you're done with RTK and they won't come up that often either anyway)

Of course, you'll want to finish RTK faster than that if you decide to do the whole thing, but you don't need to finish it that early. There was a point my reviews began to pile up a little too much, which was towards the end of Genki 1, At the end of the day, I did what others recommended here and focused more on actually finishing Genki 1-2 instead.

Anyway, my point is that it'll take a long time if you don't spend enough time with the language, so just do it daily. Even if you were incredibly impatient like me and felt like putting massive amounts of time to get to a certain level asap, the best thing you could do would still be to lower your expectations and just do your part. Expecting quick results can be painful sometimes. It's paramount that you have faith in this process and do not let frustration get in the way. As long as what you're doing isn't wishful thinking as I explained before, it'll work. Our brains can do amazing things given enough time if you do something regularly!