I've read somewhere Japanese people handle pens in a different way. I know they keep the pen vertical rather then slightly inclined as we do with western scripts. This should make easier writing Japanese.
Does anyone know exactly how they do that? Maybe someone has an image to share.

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Is this what you're referring to ? Seems a lot of younger people nowadays hold their pens like that. Writing all day at school is tiring and perhaps they do that to relax their hands.

Ahhhh .. but I think I see what you're referring to. In calligraphy you hold the brush vertically. Perhaps sometimes Japanese people also hold their pens in the calligraphy way. When you hold the brush vertically, it means you use the strength of your whole body from the waist up to move the brush, even for a small tiny little hook. That's what my teacher taught me anyway.

They teach you to train this by drawing long lines with the brush on newspaper, horizontals, verticals, diagonals and then big circles, all by moving your upper body. If you do it with the hand or arm alone you have to bend your wrist when you draw a line towards your chest, and it is not so easy to draw good straight lines. It also gives more "expression" into your calligraphy.

That kind of grip is different than holding a pen, it's a bit like you join the tip of your fingers and let your hand fall down from the wrist. I don't think you can use that and draw properly with the upper body and a pen. I don't think the "monkey grip" is a good alternative either.

Basically I think you don't have fine control with the "monkey grip" so whether for kanji or not I don't think it helps write Japanese, like I said probably relieves tension in the wrist when you write a lot.

Well, I've read a while ago (I don't remember where) the pen holding way taught in japanese school is different. I don't know if that's true. Maybe is the "monkey grip" you linked.
However, I noticed if I try to keep the pen vertical, my japanese writing is much better. If there's a specific pen grip used in Japan, I'd like to try it

I remember even the introduction of a kana teaching book explaining the holding difference between eastern and western grip style.

Here is a small blog entry on that topic (with images). Interesting, I think I will give it a try.

That's exactly what I meant! If you try to hold the pen that way, you'll notice the some characters are done more easily.

In English, I find the monkey grip more suited for print letters and the 'western' grip better for cursive.

I can't seem to get good control holding it the 'Japanese' way, perhaps I'm doing it wrong? Does anyone have better pictures of this?
(I consulted Death Note, but Light writes western style 0_o)


edit: of course, my handwriting is horrid regardless of pen position >_>

I think those pictures are exaggerated. I've never seen a Japanese person do normal handwriting with the pen perfectly vertical, and I'm around a lot of Japanese people taking a lot of notes. Yes many hold the pen at a steeper angle than most westerners, but a steep angle (though not vertical) is also the way I was always taught to be the "correct" method for western writing as well.

Very interesting! And that position makes sense to me... I've probably seen it somewhere before used by a japanese.

Not related to Japanese, I know a person who holds the pen in a very VERY strange way. He pushes his thumb on one side of the pen, and the tips of the other four fingers on the other side, evenly spaced from the point to (almost) the tail of the pen. So the pen stays very vertical, and the little finger is practically touching the paper alongside the tip. Has anybody seen this? I don't know what to call it... the octopus grip?

Interesting topic. I personally never really paid attention to how my Japanese friends hold their pens, though. Honestly, I have my doubts as to whether this really makes that much of a difference or not-- it seems like another one of those "Japanese are so different and unique!!!!" red herrings.

My best friend (American) actually holds his pen in his fist, thumb facing upwards, pen point facing down, like he's going to psycho stab the paper. And he's a pretty talented artist, and his handwriting is better than mine, too.

I improved my Japanese penmanship a great deal, but that was by buying some handwriting books and paying more attention to things like proportion, slant, etc. It had nothing to do with changing how I held the pen.

By holding the pen straight you will get thinner lines than if you held it at an angle (depends on pencil/pen too). Maybe due to the complexity of Kanji characters it's easier to draw them with thin lines.

That's the only reasoning I could come up with. You still have to retrain your hand for accuracy, precision, etc in this new position.

suffah Wrote:Maybe due to the complexity of Kanji characters it's easier to draw them with thin lines.

I'm lazy, I just buy pens with thinner nibs :-)

Interesting topic!
Ive never noticed how my friends hold their pens before.
Ive always held my pen differently when writing in English, anyway. I rest the pencil between my index and middle finger and guide it with my thumb. I keep the pencil vertical.
I tend to write Western style when Im writing in Japanese, though... its easier that way.

haha. I'm a little late on this topic, but I had a bit of an interesting thing happen the other day regarding this...... I use the 'monkey grip' when writing (and also with my chopsticks). I was sitting at my desk the other day, minding my own business, doing some studying and one of the Japanese teachers commented on how it was strange that I didn't hold my pencil normally. This started a rather interesting conversation amongst the other teachers about pen grips and which of the students have strange ones......

I've been using a 筆ペン these days, and today something came to mind. I always found it difficult to make the right-to-left strokes with the brush pen (like the 4th stroke in 指 or the 7th in 笑) while using the western grip, because the movement goes against the direction of the "hairs" and it feels like you're bending and damaging them. On the other hand (in the abstract sense...), when holding the brush vertical, as some japanese seem to be doing, making strokes left-to-right or right-to-left stresses the tip in the same moderate way.
So the vertical grip may be a remnant of the time when brushes were the only writing tools. Now it isn't needed any more, because ball-point pens don't usually have "preferred" stroke directions.

I've been trying the whole vertical thing for a few days now, I don't see much improvement in my handwriting. Are you guys sure that holding a pen vertical isn't having some sort of placebo effect on you?

I would like to note that certain strokes are easier (eg. the left to right stroke) when holding your pen vertical, but this is assuming you don't angle your paper. I don't know about you folk, but I tend to angle my paper 45 degrees to the left (when writing both roman and Japanese letters) so that when I draw horizontal lines it is easier. I've always done this and I assume it's normal to angle your paper. If you don't angle your paper, then I can see how holding your pen vertical can be an advantageous.

Hmm...I wouldn't have considered the effect of having your paper angled. Very interesting.

I find my writing is moderately better if I hold my pen vertically and actually try to write nicely. It's not an amazing difference, but enough that I have started holding my pen that way when I need to write something neatly.

After reading this post and writing out a few kanji, I noticed that I still hold the pen at a Western angle, but as I tilt it closer to 90 degrees, it seems to be easier to write the smaller strokes that way. I agree with zporkz in that it might be a placebo effect, though. We shall see!

Pen angle only matters for brushes. When you're writing with a pen vertically, you're just writing slower and paying more attention since it's different from how you normally hold a pen and thus awkward. There is nothing inherent in holding a pen vertically that can improve writing. In other words, placebo.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Pen angle only matters for brushes. When you're writing with a pen vertically, you're just writing slower and paying more attention since it's different from how you normally hold a pen and thus awkward. There is nothing inherent in holding a pen vertically that can improve writing. In other words, placebo.

Makes sense. I haven't tried a brush yet because I haven't had need for one. I'll keep this in mind for whenever I get brave and want to improve my writing. Right now I just passed the 300-character mark, so remembering to write the kanji is more important for me than making them look really nice.