FWIW I am finding a lot of core10k words I didn't already know (easily 4K of them), but I was already at a solid jlpt n1 pass level on mock tests before I started going through it. So I'd say core10k would be overkill for n2 (or at least unbalanced effort compared to working on other things than raw vocab).

According to the tanos website, you would need ~6k words for N2.  Of course it would need to be those specific words (and a few others that don't appear on any list).

My point was that word counts like that are probably overestimates (they suggest 10,000 for N1 which is definitely way more than you need) -- you can pass without knowing every word that appears in the test (you have context to help you guess and you don't need 100% to pass). 5000 would probably be more than enough.

Yeah, I'm talking about 10k and 18k because these are the numbers mentioned in the N2/N1 thread. Since most people say that you need about 10k words to be "fluent", my guess is that once you get to that point it becomes a matter of learning a lot more specific vocabulary in that more general vocabulary should be easy to guess based on the kanji and readings.

It probably feels like me doing Core 6k, then stumbling upon words like 全力 and 高度. The first thing that comes to my mind is "do I really need to srs THIS THING?" (lol). The readings and meaning couldn't be any more obvious.

But 10k for N1 being too much? Given how much trouble people seem to have with the test, I don't know about that to be honest. I mean, I've definitely seen at least 5k words if you take into account the easiest stuff that I've decided not to SRS (words you can't forget and katakana words that are extremely easy), but my reading is nowhere near solid enough to pass N2, let alone N1. I won't say anything about listening though, because identifying and immediately processing the meaning of words in written and oral contexts in Japanese are very different skills.

(2016-06-02, 2:18 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: I could have sworn you guys - that is, yogert909 and RawPk - were both N2+ or at leasts shooting for N2!

I guess I'm the one who's crazy to attempt to go over N2+ content in my first year of study (started last year on Sep 15).

I probably would have been N2+ by now if I hadn't stopped studying Japanese 4+ years ago. But alas, I'm not. I guess after my formal Japanese classes I just lost any motivation to self-study.

As for the review pileup, I'm basically lazy sad to say lol But I'm hoping that trying to use the JLPT as a goal will act as a motivator for me to get back into it. That, and I'd love to know enough Japanese to consume media but this is a long term goal that isn't enough to motivate me here and now. The JLPT is more immediate due to the fact as least it lets me know where I stand in a sense.  

With what I'm studying now, it is more of a "catch up" because I forgot a lot of what I learned in my classes way back when...and it showed in my J-CAT scores. I will be able to retake it again in August to see if there has been some improvement since then. If I don't hit the pre-intermediate range (101-150 total) in the 2nd attempt, I'm strongly considering bumping down to N4 for December.

IMO going from beginning to N2 in a year is reach but seeing as that you're almost done with Tobira (which according to this reddit topic is about N3),you can quickly review N3 with JLPT N3 Comprehensive Exam Exercises (Tettei Drill) then work your way to N2.

(2016-06-02, 4:40 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: But 10k for N1 being too much? Given how much trouble people seem to have with the test, I don't know about that to be honest.

I can't speak for other people, but like I say my view here is based on the fact that (1) I definitely don't know 10k words (2) I can still easily pass JLPT1 mock tests.

Quote:I mean, I've definitely seen at least 5k words if you take into account the easiest stuff that I've decided not to SRS (words you can't forget and katakana words that are extremely easy), but my reading is nowhere near solid enough to pass N2, let alone  N1.

Right, but is that because you don't have the vocabulary in numbers-of-words, or instead that your reading in general is not solid enough yet? There's a whole mix of skills including speed of reading large passages, familiarity with grammar and how writers tend to structure passages, and having a decent core of vocab but also the ability to make good guesses about words you don't know. I think overall that's more important than number-of-words, though it's harder to measure.

I have over 10k words in Anki (can't say I *know* all of them), and I didn't have much less at the time of the N1 last December; I failed quite hard.
I had plenty of vocabulary for that test, but I didn't have adequate reading skills; my misses in the vocabulary section were mostly down to familiarity (I knew that I should have known them, but wasn't familiar enough to answer the question correctly; I did much worse than I had ever done on a practice test, so I figured I was just unlucky).
They have footnotes for several 'probably won't know' words for each piece in the reading portion (it actually throws me off, because I immediately look towards the footnotes, even if it's a word I know), though it's best if you know more of them, so you don't lose time.

The main hurdle with the reading section for N1 (and I presume N2; N3 and under seem to be less so, from the practice questions I've done for them) is reading and understanding quickly. It's not enough to read and understand, because you'll run out of time before you finish half of it.
I've finally started reading essays like I said I would, and I can tell that it's something that I'm lacking ability in.

Nice little milestone today. Last month I set a goal of finishing 1 chapter a week of my kanji book, and I just finished it today:



You can see that that also resulted in me finishing the entire first page of the table of contents

In June I want to finish 第３部 completely. I'm especially looking forward to the 2 chapters on "Rules governing readings"!

This should be completely doable for me. I already know most of the words in those chapters, and there's really only 2 main chapters of vocab in them.

And just finished the 2nd chapter in my grammar book, along with the review for the first 2 chapters. Another nice milestone for the month. I think next month I'll try and add 1 new card a day for grammar and see how far that gets me.

A quick scan of the book makes it looks like, at that rate, I won't get close to finishing the book by then. But I might not need to. We'll see. That's the plan for this month, and I can always adjust later.

Kanji readings are like the pirates' code -- more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules :-)

So, another anniversary of the JLPT, another update:

Compared to last month:
Mature grammar cards: 572 (June) - 568 (May) = +4
Mature Kanji cards: 707 (June) - 715 (May) = -8
Mature vocab cards: 4,877 (June) - 4,824 (May) = +53

Total mature cards: 6,156 (June) - 6,107 (May) = +49

Compared to December 7, 2015 (the day after the exam):
Mature grammar cards: 572 (June) - 476 (12/7) = +96
Mature Kanji cards: 707 (June) - 684 (12/7) = +23
Mature vocab cards: 4,877 (June) - 4,500 (12/7) = +377

Total mature cards: 6,156 (June) - 5,660 (12/7) = +496

Definitely a big improvement in vocab this month, which is probably due to my goal with my kanji book last month. Right now I'm feeling a bit burned out, because it took more time than I expected to hit that goal. I had about 150 vocab review this morning, which is a lot more than I'd like. Here's my weekly anki time: you can see how it went from 3 to 4+ hours a week over the last month:



I already listed where I'm at with my kanji and grammar books, and my general approach for this next month. But to be honest, I probably won't be adding in any new material this week, because I want to take a break and get my daily reviews down first.

In terms of reading and listening this month: I put a hold on a few manga at my library, so I should get some non-NHK Easy News practice in that way. And I'll probably also continue watching 1 shirokuma episode a week. I found that watching it first with no subs, and then with English subs, is a great way for me to practice. So I'll probably keep on doing that.

I'll also probably try to get some 1-1 practice with native speakers in. That tends to happen once or twice a month for me.

Oh, and I also have 3 JOI lessons left with my current package.

Wooh! Huge about of mature cards you have there! I too stopped adding new cards as of 2 days ago to clear reviews.

As for shirokuma, I found that watching the anime has helped a lot with reading the manga. When I read it, I tend to mentally read in the character's voice xD As for my progress, I'm at page 90/160. This weekend has been hectic but after today, I have a week to read (for tadoku) to finally finish it and onward to vol 2!

Had to watch shirokuma ep 22 twice! I just couldn't understand much of it with the English subs. Another Penguin centered episode of course. More info on the episode here (MAJOR SPOILER ALERT...especially if you didn't already watch ep 15 and 19 yet as it introduced other characters that show up in the episode). The only thing I will say is that the new characters are penguins too! Hehe.

(2016-06-12, 12:27 am)RawrPk Wrote: Had to watch shirokuma ep 22 twice! I just couldn't understand much of it with the English subs. Another Penguin centered episode of course. More info on the episode here (MAJOR SPOILER ALERT...especially if you didn't already watch ep 15 and 19 yet as it introduced other characters that show up in the episode). The only thing I will say is that the new characters are penguins too! Hehe.

You're way ahead of me! I just finished episode 14, and I normally try and do 1 a week. 

This was a very fun episode though - polar bear and panda switch jobs. I watched it twice again: the first time without subs, and the second time with subs. This is sooo helpful for me.

If you that episode is great, just wait til ep 21 when Panda does it again...but with everyone else! The things Panda does when left to his own devices xD

I love watching without subs on my first watch through! Though I know I won't understand everything, it feels great when you get to parts that you do understand and think to yourself 'wow! I understood that without subs! やった！" The 2nd time with Eng subs makes things more comprehensive and serves as a reinforcement for parts I already knew

As for the manga, I'm at 123/160. I think I can finish by today! This is a small milestone for me because this would be the first manga I've ever completely read! I don't know how much my reading has improved but I'm sure it is better now than when I didn't regularly read. I hope to continue this trend of progress.

How is everyone else doing?

Why don't you guys try to watch it more often? The time we really learn things is when we go to bed and our brains finally get to organize everything properly in our heads, so one of the best things you can do is to keep the momentum to take advantage of this daily cycle. Of course, you could already be studying something else every day, so I don't know.

In my case, 1 episode per week would be extremely slow. But then again, I'm as greedy as can be when it comes to learning Japanese. I might settle for 2 episodes per day for the time being, not sure. But if I focus, I should be able to do much more than that. I guess I'll try 1 ep of しろくまカフェ and 1 ep of 未来日記 per day.

It's the second time I give 未来日記 a try though, and I just like last time I still don't feel any interest in getting past ep 2. It looks like a major train wreck and a lot of stuff turns me off. But I'm curious to see why some other people seem to like a few things about it, so I guess I'll use it as a study tool for now to get both things done. Or at least I hope I'll be interested enough to pull through and finish the whole thing.

Overall things are going well.

I really wanted to take a break this week, because I was crunching hard for my "JLPT anniversary" goal last Sunday. And I pretty much did that. I pretty much just coasted by on my anki reviews.

Today was the first time I picked up my grammar book in a week, and I made a bunch of new cards. I know that I'm only at the beginning of the book, but I'm not *too* worried. Because thanks to JOI, I already know quite a bit of the grammar points - I just haven't learned them in the same order as this book. I think that by the end of the month I should have a much better understanding of where I stand grammar-wise.

Also, my copy of Yotsubato! 5 arrived at the library. I'll start that once I finish my latest English fiction book.

Here's something crazy though - I just saw that this thread has been viewed 37,102 times. Is that a typo? Honestly, I feel like this thread is just me talking with like 5-10 people about a fairly obscure topic. Could it really have been viewed that many times?

(2016-06-12, 3:32 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: Why don't you guys try to watch it more often? The time we really learn things is when we go to bed and our brains finally get to organize everything properly in our heads, so one of the best things you can do is to keep the momentum to take advantage of this daily cycle. Of course, you could already be studying something else every day, so I don't know.

In my case, 1 episode per week would be extremely slow. But then again, I'm as greedy as can be when it comes to learning Japanese. I might settle for 2 episodes per day for the time being, not sure. But if I focus, I should be able to do much more than that. I guess I'll try 1 ep of しろくまカフェ and 1 ep of 未来日記 per day.

It's the second time I give 未来日記 a try though, and I just like last time I still don't feel any interest in getting past ep 2. It looks like a major train wreck and a lot of stuff turns me off. But I'm curious to see why some other people seem to like a few things about it, so I guess I'll use it as a study tool for now to get both things done. Or at least I hope I'll be interested enough to pull through and finish the whole thing.

In my case, I only watch 1 episode a week because I'm so busy with work. On the weekends it's easier for me to devote time to watching it, and be alert enough to give it enough attention to get something out of it.

I don't think I've seen 未来日記 before. But if you find another series that you like, please post it here! I'm kind of tempted to continue watching shirokuma til the end before getting into another series, but it could be fun to shake things up.

I feel the most important thing is that anime and visual novels makes learning more interesting than textbooks. Finding subtitles has been kinda hit or miss, but I think the most important thing by far is to pick something you find enjoyable... that is, as long as it's not too difficult.

I plan on finishing Tobira soon (3 chapters left), but as of now I have very little motivation. I guess the topics aren't nearly as interesting as anime or visual novels to me. So despite the fact that I've alredy seen pretty much all vocabulary in advance and grammar points, I don't feel that motivated.

If you don't want to watch something with a more serious plot, you could try some comedy instead. It really depends on what kind of genres you enjoy though.

EDIT: You could also pick a visual novel if you find it enjoyable. It allows you to control the pace of everything to an extent that it's impossible with anime, unless you pause it all the time.

I actually watch in burst of 3-5 episodes in 1 sitting! I know it's crazy but I can never just watch 1 episode! I'm sorta addicted to the show xD I do this during the weekends though so it's not too bad. I make my bf watch through my second watch since I have English subs up and he even agrees the show is hilarious.

As for VNs, I actually know nothing about them! I mean I understand the concept but I don't know of any titles.

[EDIT] 37,102 times? Wow! Guess there is a demand for N3 discussions that this thread is meeting.

Oh yeah, しろくまカフェ is indeed a lot funnier than I thought an anime about animals could ever be.

When it comes to visual novels, it really depends on what genre you like. It's hard to give blind recommendations to people. On top of that, not everyone likes the medium anyway.

My favorite anime - Steins;Gate - is actually a visual novel adaptation. It's an absolute must watch for anyone who likes sci-fi/thriller/drama stories. English subs, Japanese subs, I don't care... once you get to the second half, you can't stop watching it, unless you don't like the genre at all.

That feeling when you learn a word from a textbook, pick up some native material, and immediately see it plastered all over the native material

In my case that word is 出勤. Just learned it in my kanji book (勤 was obviously the new character). Yotsuba is asking her dad to play with her, but he's working in front of the computer. Totally made me laugh.

(2016-06-14, 11:58 am)ariariari Wrote: That feeling when you learn a word from a textbook, pick up some native material, and immediately see it plastered all over the native material

In my case that word is 出勤. Just learned it in my kanji book (勤 was obviously the new character). Yotsuba is asking her dad to play with her, but he's working in front of the computer. Totally made me laugh.

I swear to God that "word blindness" is a thing. I'll learn a word and be like, "Huh, I wonder why I've never seen that word before" - and then, suddenly, it's everywhere. I guess the brain's noise filter just tosses the word out as random nonsense until you actually commit it to memory.

(2016-06-14, 1:20 pm)gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

(2016-06-14, 11:58 am)ariariari Wrote: That feeling when you learn a word from a textbook, pick up some native material, and immediately see it plastered all over the native material

In my case that word is 出勤. Just learned it in my kanji book (勤 was obviously the new character). Yotsuba is asking her dad to play with her, but he's working in front of the computer. Totally made me laugh.

I swear to God that "word blindness" is a thing. I'll learn a word and be like, "Huh, I wonder why I've never seen that word before" - and then, suddenly, it's everywhere. I guess the brain's noise filter just tosses the word out as random nonsense until you actually commit it to memory.

That's so funny and true. In this case it was comical because Yotsuba is a kid and literally kept on repeating the word in a way that only a kid can.

But I was also out with a friend recently who just passed the N1. He just started memorizing the 4 kanji phrases (yojijukugo). He reads a lot of novels and now says that he sees them everywhere. So I guess that it happens at all levels!

(2016-06-14, 1:20 pm)gaiaslastlaugh Wrote: I swear to God that "word blindness" is a thing. I'll learn a word and be like, "Huh, I wonder why I've never seen that word before" - and then, suddenly, it's everywhere. I guess the brain's noise filter just tosses the word out as random nonsense until you actually commit it to memory.

This. But your brain is also throwing out all of the times you learned about something and never encountered it again.  You only remember the times when the new thing is everywhere.  It's a cognative bias referred to as frequency bias or the baader-meinhoff phenomenon.