Does anyone have a way of distinguishing between when the "vase" or "stand up" primitive (frame 431) is connected to what comes below it (as in "sovereign" (435) or the "antique" primitive), or separate from it (as in "juvenile" (436) or "dragon" (536))? I'm having a heck of a time remembering when it should be part of the piece below, and when not. Often Heisig assigns a slightly different meaning to the same primitive written in different ways, but he doesn't distinguish between these two.

Has anyone else had this problem? If so, how did you solve it?

For me, it has been pretty much rote learning.

I wonder, if you look at all the kanji it occurs in, whether there are any consistent patterns you can draw out. E.g., if it's above a belt- or hood-like primitive, is it consistently combined?

(PS I use "stand" rather than "vase" because I already know that kanji as "stand", and using "vase" would only confuse me.)

[Katsuo]

As you mention, Heisig often distinguishes between similar-looking primitives by giving them related but distinct names (e.g fiesta/parade/march).

So here you could give the "bottomless" vase the name of a related but clearly different object. E.g. "hanging basket" (as it is also used to display flowers).

I didn't do that myself, but I did find it useful to rename the "vase + crown" combination as "fez" in the following characters:

435:帝;1015:傍;1340:締;2716:諦;2741:蹄;slanderous:謗;right radical:旁;bladder (part 1):膀; (last three not in RTK).

sadfish Wrote:Does anyone have a way of distinguishing between when the "vase" or "stand up" primitive (frame 431) is connected to what comes below it (as in "sovereign" (435) or the "antique" primitive), or separate from it (as in "juvenile" (436) or "dragon" (536))? I'm having a heck of a time remembering when it should be part of the piece below, and when not. Often Heisig assigns a slightly different meaning to the same primitive written in different ways, but he doesn't distinguish between these two.

Has anyone else had this problem? If so, how did you solve it?

For JUVENILE (436), I did change my imaginary story for this very reason, and the updated version is public. For 435, Heisig uses the preposition 'in', which shows me he intends to connect the primitives there. 536 I've just reached, so I'll see if that becomes a problem. 435 is one to be wary of, I think. The ANTIQUE primitive is easy for me because I guess I just imagine an antique ON something. Make a deal, for some reason, is not a problem for me.

I have not ever used Vase, stand is already unique enough.

I think with more reviews and studying, it will stick with you. Don't be afraid to fail cards. It's the cards that I had trouble with at first that are REALLY in my head now, because I reviewed them so many times and took so long to get the most powerful and effective story in my head. I remember being very afraid of failing cards... thinking that it meant I wasn't learning effectively or that may be I wasn't smart enough to remember 2000 kanji. But the beauty of the SRS is that failing is just part of the process. You only have to put in minimal effort, keep up your reviews, and you'll learn these kanji.

Check out samuize's story for "make a deal" (which is essentially the real etymology, according to Henshall), and jabberwockychortles's story for "sovereign". Anyway, that's how I remember the connected/bottomless version of the primitive.

Thanks for the replies, folks.... Haven't been here in a few days, but I aprpeciate the comments.

Back to the review....

Actually I just finished that section with 80 kanji that includes the vase and I noticed that the vase is always connected when its below anything that encloses such as a crown, bound up, or helmet. For example take sovereign, make a deal, and antique which the vase has a crown, helmet, and helmet respectively. However the vase does not connect when it is anything else such as the rice field with dragon or juvenile.

In my opinion there is no such thing as random strokes, I see that whoever invented these symbols gave a reason for it or it just wouldn't make sense. For example when kanji such as gold is to the left the last stroke moves upward because it leads to the next kanji which always starts up mainly to write the kanji faster. I also noticed the same thing with strokes that move the unthinkable right to left is mainly to lead in to the next stroke which is closer like thousand or heaven.