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Learning Chinese without grammar.

#1
I am a native Chinese man, but as you see, I also know English -- not good but I can use it for my works.

I am writing this post, because I want to share my experiences on learning language.

I had spent many years to learn English but could not handle it, untill I read a article called "Learning English As a Baby". Then I undertood, I was learning a subject called "Translation", but not real English. I have changed my way to learn English, it is even not called learning, but to accept English as a bady who doesn't know Chinese or any other language.

Now I am learning French, and it is much faster than learing English, because I got the key. I have wasted more than 10 years to get this key.

So the key is, forgetting your mother tongue, you have just new borned, you know nothing about the world, now you are learing everything new with Chinese. You don't know "sugar" and "sweet", but this is táng, and it is tían.

Please think about what I said for a few minutes, than continue to read.

You may ask, yes, sweet is "tían", but field is also "tían", how I know what you are saying?!

This is the difference from Chinese to other alphabetic writing languages. In English, you know how to speak a word, then you can know how the spelling looks like. Because the writings are from speakings. But Chinese is different, maybe thousands years before, the Chinese people also called the field with many syllables, but after creating the characters, all the people called the field with one syllable.

You don't need to think this is good or bad, because you are a baby/kid, you are accepting everything without any condition.

Your father and your teacher told you the meaning of 田, and teach you how to write.

This is same in English, but problem is on speaking.

In the different places and different time of China, the sounds of 田 are different. I know you are learing Mandarins, only one kind of sound. But there are Cantonese, Hakka....the 田 have hundreads speaking ways in China. And they are all Chinese.

I am not telling you that you have to learn hundreads speaking ways of one charater in Chinese. There are thousands languages in China, in the south of China, people and people can not understand each other even they are only 20 kilometer far. And it is not everyone in China speak Mandarins well.

So how they communicate?

Using Chinese characters!

Please image, a English, a Portuguese and a Spanish meet, how they communicate? They have to both learn one same language. But if using Chinese characters, you can still saying "field", he can still saying "campo", but you both write them to be 田. You dont know need to learn Spanish, French...but every people speaking different languages in Europe are using the same writing, is that convenient?

Actually, in Ancient China, there are many countries, they spoke different like Europe. Chinese characters were international.

Believe me, Chinese people is not stupid, we created characters are not for making ourselves difficult, but convenient.

You have your owning language like many Chinese people, only yours is called English, mine is Cantonese. You don't have to learn Mandarin, only you need.

Many Chinese people feel hard to learn English, because they use the way of learning Chinese, they alway write and write, but don't open their mouth.

So learning Chinese is reversed, please write, please use your mind, your eyes and your nose to feel every character.

Please learning Chinese from classical Chinese, from the aticles which were by the ancient Chinese people. Like 《The Thousand Character Classic》, Chinese people were learning Characters from these, you too.

天地玄黄,宇宙洪荒。日月盈昃,辰宿列张。

Read them, you will get the meanings.

Dont hear about grammars of modern Chinese language at beging, you will lose the way.

Chinese has no grammar.

In modern Chinese language, you can not use noun to be verb, but in classical Chinese, you can.

For example, wearing cloth, in modern Chinese language, you have to say, 我在穿衣服,我穿衣服,我在给他穿衣服。

But in classical Chinese, it is very simple, you can write (yes, only write.): 我衣,衣我,衣之。

Another example, 驴不胜怒,蹄之 ----word by word: The donkey can not bear the anger, hoof it.

See, you don't need to learn a word of "kick", but hoof is enough.

Yes, these are dead, no longer use. But please learn Chinese from the morning of this culture, you will not confuse.

You won't think what grammar cause "写黑板" is right. Don't think.

Read more ancient Chinese poems.

床前明月光

Bed, front, bright, moon, light.

This is already a sentence in Chinese.

There is no "there is", there is no "in", there is no verb, there is no possessive case, you don't need to know when it happened, who is there.

Here is no grammar. It is a opened language, every people can build them like toy blocks.

You may say, OK OK, I understand you, but why if I say "我水, I water" my teacher say I am wrong.

Because you need to use modern Chinese to say.

Modern Chinese has Europeanized grammar, to make the modern Chinese organized. It is closed to English, so it is simple.

But why you will be confused, even you know English very well? Because Chinese people use modern Chinese and ancient Chinese both. And you have not learned ancient Chinese.

Yes, you will mainly use modern Chinese, but please learn it later.

Learn Chinese from original, from thousands year ago. You will deeply understand Chinese.

Forget the grammar, learning Chinese from

天地玄黄,宇宙洪荒。日月盈昃,辰宿列张……
床前明月光……
枯藤老树昏鸦,小桥流水人家,古道西风瘦马……

Please, relax yourslef, to enjoy learning Chinese characters. They are international, they are not only for Chinese, they are for every people, don't scare them, they are very friendly. You can call the fields to be fields, but write it 田, you can call the birds to be birds, but write it 鸟。
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#2
BTW, if you have any question in Chinese, please reply here, I will answer one by one.
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#3
hey,

Welcome to the board and thanks for the insightful post!

Interesting perspective - don't worry about grammar. I actually believe the same thing - learn words and sentences from context, your brain will find the rules and patterns. Studying grammar is mostly only useful retrospectively, or to clear up confusion between similar cases.

BTW, I'm a teacher of English in Taiwan, so I know what you mean about learning translation rather than real English.
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#4
Yup, welcome Manwei Smile Nice to have Chinese person onboard.

This forum is kinda new, with the topics moved from another language learning forum.

PS: I changed the Show Recent Posts feature to default to 1 week, so that it works better until the forum is more active.
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#5
The idea that there's any language that has no grammar is absurd. Grammar is an intrinsic part of language. You can't have language without grammar. Of course Chinese has grammar, and it doesn't matter which time period you're talking about.

Also, it's nearly impossible for a non-native speaker of Chinese to start out by studying Classical Chinese. There are few enough textbooks in English for learners of Classical Chinese as it is, and they all presuppose at least a basic knowledge of Chinese before starting. Not to mention that learning Classical Chinese first when your goal is to learn one of the modern Chinese languages is ridiculous. It's like saying "if you want to learn French, you should learn Latin first". It makes no sense. Yeah, you may "deeply understand" French, but the extra time it takes to learn Latin first isn't worth the trouble. You could just as well spend the time getting better at French, which was your goal in the first place.

Anyone who wants to reach an advanced level in Chinese ought to learn at least some Classical Chinese, of course, but to suggest starting out with it doesn't make sense.

There's plenty of other things wrong, pedagogically, linguistically, and otherwise with what you posted, but I'll stop there. I appreciate your intentions, but perhaps this sort of thing is better left to those who have a bit more knowledge about the topic. On the other hand, it would be great to have a native speaker's input (about usage and such) around here.
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#6
Thanks for the replies.

I wrote this because there is a article called <Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard>.

I really want to have a chance to talk with him face to face, to help him.

Some thing he said is not right, Like we both know Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese...I can write every common charcters.

Maybe you don't believe, but many Chinese people learn English yonger than 10 years old, and have spent many years to learn, still can not use English well.

Why they are so difficult to learn English. Because they are using their Chinese brain to learn English. "Why there is plural, why there is past tense, there should be not! (Because Chinese doesn't have.)"...They are not prejudiced, they want to learn English well, but something in their mind resists English.

So you (void-referring, not the real you) are the same, please drop any weapon to learn Chinese!



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The difference from Latin to ancient Chinese is ancient Chinese is still using. It influence
s modern Chinese every where.

Why you don't understand 上海队大胜北京队=上海队大败北京队?

Because 上海队大败北京=上海队使北京队大败。 Shanghai team make Beijing team lose.

This is ancient Chinese.

In ancient Chinese, Noun can be verb, adv, adj...You don't need to scare, but just use your feeling.
Edited: 2012-07-16, 3:05 am
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#7
Manwei Wrote:Thanks for the replies.

I wrote this because there is a article called <Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard>.

I really want to have a chance to talk with him face to face, to help him.
He wrote that, what, 20-something years ago as an inside joke for other scholars who had also been through the process of learning Chinese in an academic context. His Chinese ability is stellar, and he certainly doesn't need any help.

Quote:Some thing he said is not right
Well I'll agree with you there.

Quote:Maybe you don't believe, but many Chinese people learn English yonger than 10 years old, and have spent many years to learn, still can not use English well.

Why they are so difficult to learn English. Because they are using their Chinese brain to learn English. "Why there is plural, why there is past tense, there should be not! (Because Chinese doesn't have.)"...They are not prejudiced, they want to learn English well, but something in their mind resists English.
I know this. I make my living as an English teacher/proofreader/translator in Taiwan. The single biggest problem most Taiwanese people have is that they try to translate Chinese into English in their heads as they go, so you get sentences like "I have ever been to America" because they think that 曾經 needs to be there, because it's there in Chinese.

There's this idea that "English grammar + English translations of Chinese words = correct English", which couldn't be further from the truth. "Correct English" is English as it is used by native speakers, in a way that other native speakers can understand. So the right thing to do is not to translate directly, but to find out how native speakers would say whatever it is you want to say. The best way I know to learn this is to consume as much media (for native speakers, by native speakers) in the target language as possible, and analyze it while you're at it.


Quote:The difference from Latin to ancient Chinese is ancient Chinese is still using. It influences modern Chinese every where.
As I said, any student of modern Chinese will have to learn some Literary Chinese (this is the usual term in English, not Ancient Chinese, which I only ever hear used by native Chinese speakers), but it makes no sense, nor is it even feasible, for a learner to begin with it rather than starting with Mandarin or whatever other Chinese language s/he is learning.


Quote:In ancient Chinese, Noun can be verb, adv, adj...You don't need to scare, but just use your feeling.
Parts of speech in Literary Chinese are not nearly as flexible as you seem to want us to believe. Certain characters in certain contexts could be used this way, but that was generally because it represented a different word in the spoken language. This is often why many characters change tone when their part of speech is different, such as 衣 in your example. They originally represented slightly different (though obviously related) words in the spoken language but were written with the same character.
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#8
Thanks for your correction.

Something in Literary Chinese is similar like English.
For example: ship.
This is a ship. -- It is a noun.
Please ship me the sofas. --- It is a verb.

So if a student think the word of "ship" has two meanings (at least), then he/she will be very tired to learn English, because there are many words, ane each word has many meanings. But in fact, they are the same meaning.

In the beginning of every language, noun was the first kind of word. Then nouns became verbs...I believe at first time, people didn't say "You kick me." but "You foot me.".

Another example.

"Point" means something has one side thick and anoher side thin, and the thin side is main, so when people say "Please point to me." A English child will understand very soon even he hasn't heard its verb using way. But in Chinese, "point" and "dot" are same when they are nouns: "点", it is 2D only. "Dot me"? When do you mean?

It is wasting time to remember like "Oh, point has two meanings, one is 点,another is 指向。"

But yes, some words really have different meanings like "tear".

Chinese is same. If you think very character has many meanings and remember them by rote. You will be very tired, and will be very confused when you see them at the different place.

So if you don't agree me learning Literary Chinese is usful, let me change my words:

Catching every Chinese charater's primary meaning!
Edited: 2012-07-17, 9:37 pm
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#9
Are you talking to me? I never said Literary Chinese wasn't useful. If we're going to have a discussion, you have to read what I'm actually writing here. I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm wasting my time, though.
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#10
bflatnine Wrote:The single biggest problem most Taiwanese people have is that they try to translate Chinese into English in their heads as they go, so you get sentences like "I have ever been to America" because they think that 曾經 needs to be there, because it's there in Chinese.

There's this idea that "English grammar + English translations of Chinese words = correct English", which couldn't be further from the truth. "Correct English" is English as it is used by native speakers, in a way that other native speakers can understand. So the right thing to do is not to translate directly, but to find out how native speakers would say whatever it is you want to say. The best way I know to learn this is to consume as much media (for native speakers, by native speakers) in the target language as possible, and analyze it while you're at it.
Personally I think the real issue with English in Asia is lack of output practice.

At my buxiban (one of the biggest chains, which is fairly representative) grammar is studied by example. Each chapter of the book has a new grammar pattern (which are perfectly correct textbook English) and a dialog; 20 chapters per book, 15 books (+ additional story books), the kids learn large amount of comprehensible input and output.

The problem is, they never actually get to practice using what they've learnt. Tests and exercises are almost totally based around translation exercises, and by the time they reach advanced class and have to start free-talking and writing essays, they've forgotten most of the patterns. They end up making basic grammar mistakes like you'd expect from a 4-5 year old native speaker, and yes some start using Chinese grammar in their English.

All this knowledge can be activated pretty easily given enough time and practice, but this is the main issue; never having to use it.

I don't think more input always helps; most of my Taiwanese co-teachers can hold a perfect conversation, yet many of them admit they cant/don't consume native English media (too fast + too much broken grammar and slang). Also there are tons of people on the Japanese koohii who can read and listen incredibly well, but can only speak Japanese like babies (e.g. icecream). This is area where I hugely disagree with AJATT - input /= output.
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#11
bflatnine Wrote:Are you talking to me? I never said Literary Chinese wasn't useful. If we're going to have a discussion, you have to read what I'm actually writing here. I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm wasting my time, though.
No, like I said on one reply, it is not real you. But someone is learning Chinese.

I know I have repeated and repeated some of my meanings, however these are replies on a bbs, I didn't think deeply and wrote in one time like my graduation thesis.
Edited: 2012-07-18, 2:30 am
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#12
aphasiac Wrote:
bflatnine Wrote:The single biggest problem most Taiwanese people have is that they try to translate Chinese into English in their heads as they go, so you get sentences like "I have ever been to America" because they think that 曾經 needs to be there, because it's there in Chinese.

There's this idea that "English grammar + English translations of Chinese words = correct English", which couldn't be further from the truth. "Correct English" is English as it is used by native speakers, in a way that other native speakers can understand. So the right thing to do is not to translate directly, but to find out how native speakers would say whatever it is you want to say. The best way I know to learn this is to consume as much media (for native speakers, by native speakers) in the target language as possible, and analyze it while you're at it.
Personally I think the real issue with English in Asia is lack of output practice.

At my buxiban (one of the biggest chains, which is fairly representative) grammar is studied by example. Each chapter of the book has a new grammar pattern (which are perfectly correct textbook English) and a dialog; 20 chapters per book, 15 books (+ additional story books), the kids learn large amount of comprehensible input and output.

The problem is, they never actually get to practice using what they've learnt. Tests and exercises are almost totally based around translation exercises, and by the time they reach advanced class and have to start free-talking and writing essays, they've forgotten most of the patterns. They end up making basic grammar mistakes like you'd expect from a 4-5 year old native speaker, and yes some start using Chinese grammar in their English.

All this knowledge can be activated pretty easily given enough time and practice, but this is the main issue; never having to use it.

I don't think more input always helps; most of my Taiwanese co-teachers can hold a perfect conversation, yet many of them admit they cant/don't consume native English media (too fast + too much broken grammar and slang). Also there are tons of people on the Japanese koohii who can read and listen incredibly well, but can only speak Japanese like babies (e.g. icecream). This is area where I hugely disagree with AJATT - input /= output.
I know much about AJATT, they are using their way to speak English.
Japanese is very colesd to Spanish and Italian, you know, the a,i,u,e,o, ka ki ku ke ko, sa si su se so...
So like "good", they may think: oh, it is "gu de".
It is simple for them, but they will speak very bad.

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I think you can build a MSN Group, tell them only using English in the group. And there are always English salons. So they can practice.
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