nest0r Wrote:.... Google for the torrent of Stardict dictionaries, as they took the good ones off the sourceforge site... don't know how long the seeds will last.Yes, download them ASAP. We all know about the "here today, gone tomorrow" nature of the Internet. It's so fickle.
Groot Wrote:I listened to the first FSI tape and was very impressed. I was able to recognize the different tones pretty easily by the end of the first lesson. I suppose the speakers were speaking extra-slowly and clearly for our benefit, but even so I found it very useful. My only complaint was that I couldn't find whatever illustrations were referenced on the tape. The workbook on the site didn't correspond to the exercises on the tape. Perhaps I was looking at the wrong workbook.I don't remember there being any discrepancy between the tape and the workbook. You're using the Resource Module PDF, right? The title page should say "Standard Chinese: A Modular Approach. Resource Modules: Pronunciation and Romanization, Numbers, Classroom Expressions, Time and Dates."
Quote:Also, I've found lots of diagrams of tones, but can anyone point me to one that approximates the range in musical terms? Is the difference between the high and low tone an octave, for example? I read music and play various instruments, and I sing, so a visual guide to the "music" of Chinese might help me.As a fellow musician, I'm inclined to say "just use your ears."
However, I will say that the exact pitch of the tones will depend on context: sentence intonation, relationship to other tones before and after, stress or lack thereof on that particular word/syllable, etc. So...just use your ears. Quote:Finally, which is more useful, Mandarin or Cantonese? I've only been to China and Hong Kong once, but I do encounter Chinese folks all the time here in the US. My primary interest is in reading the language, but of course I'd like to understand and speak as well. Actually, my primary interest until now has been in learning to read Japanese, but working through RTK 1 has stimulated my interest in studying Chinese as well. Anyway, which dialect is best to learn if one's primary interest is in reading?Unless you have a specific reason to learn Cantonese, you ought to learn Mandarin, IMO. It is the official language of both the PRC and Taiwan. Cantonese is spoken in southern China and in Hong Kong, but most people will also understand Mandarin, since Mandarin is the language of education throughout China (but not Hong Kong), regardless of the local language. Not only that, but also remember that standard written Chinese is largely based on Mandarin. Cantonese can also be written down, but unless you want to limit yourself severely in your reading options, you'll have to learn the standard written language as well. This means that in effect you'll be learning two languages at once, since Cantonese and Mandarin (and by extension, written Chinese) are so different from each other.
Groot Wrote:Many thanks for your detailed response. Indeed, I was looking at the wrong PDF file. I found the right one.Well, there is a difference between a person's "singing voice" and their "speaking voice." But I would say that yes, there could be as much as an octave difference in some cases (especially when intentionally speaking very clearly). Generally the descriptions given in textbooks are something like "first tone is near the top of the speaking register, while third tone is near the bottom." The large range will likely be uncomfortable at first, but you'll get used to it.
Thanks also for the advice on tones, and on Mandarin. Very helpful.
Edit: On the "musical" aspect of tones, at least would you say that the difference between the high tone and low tone can be as much as an octave? That's really a big difference! I know singers with a smaller range than that.
Kewickviper Wrote:Wow do some people really not have vocal ranges larger than an octave? That's crazy!Again, there's a difference between people's speaking voice and their singing voice. However, that does remind me of an interview I saw with Henry Mancini about when he wrote "Moon River." He knew Audrey Hepburn would be singing it, and he didn't get a chance to meet with her to find out her range. So he had to go on what he had heard in her other movies, which was a range of about a sixth, and so he had to write more or less within that sixth.
bflatnine Wrote:Out of curiosity - does it make sense to go through the further lessons as well if starting Chinese now, or is it better to only do the P&R module and switch to more "modern" materials? Thanks.lagwagon555 Wrote:All that's holding me back is pronunciation (certainly seems a heck of alot harder than Japanese, and without a teacher I don't really know how I'll fare)The FSI Pronunciation and Romanization module, while dry as hell, is still the best thing I've ever seen for pronunciation. You'll need P&R tapes 1-6 and the Resource Module (PDF). Drill these few lessons for about a week or so, and you'll have good pronunciation.
efeilliaid Wrote:The other lessons are fine, but they're pretty boring and dry, and tend to teach things you don't really need at such a low level, such as "I work at the military attache's office." This is because of who the course was designed for – military personnel and diplomats. I'd recommend using something else. The New Practical Chinese Reader books with the recordings are quite good, and you can find vocab lists online to make into flashcards.bflatnine Wrote:The FSI Pronunciation and Romanization module, while dry as hell, is still the best thing I've ever seen for pronunciation. You'll need P&R tapes 1-6 and the Resource Module (PDF). Drill these few lessons for about a week or so, and you'll have good pronunciation.Out of curiosity - does it make sense to go through the further lessons as well if starting Chinese now, or is it better to only do the P&R module and switch to more "modern" materials? Thanks.
bflatnine Wrote:Thanks a lot, I don't work at the military attache's office ;-)efeilliaid Wrote:The other lessons are fine, but they're pretty boring and dry, and tend to teach things you don't really need at such a low level, such as "I work at the military attache's office." This is because of who the course was designed for – military personnel and diplomats. I'd recommend using something else. The New Practical Chinese Reader books with the recordings are quite good, and you can find vocab lists online to make into flashcards.bflatnine Wrote:The FSI Pronunciation and Romanization module, while dry as hell, is still the best thing I've ever seen for pronunciation. You'll need P&R tapes 1-6 and the Resource Module (PDF). Drill these few lessons for about a week or so, and you'll have good pronunciation.Out of curiosity - does it make sense to go through the further lessons as well if starting Chinese now, or is it better to only do the P&R module and switch to more "modern" materials? Thanks.
mizunooto Wrote:For tones, there's a free pinyin chart, with audio, that you can download from Chinese Pod. It looks good to me, I mean, I'm using it! (That was the only thing I used from that site).That's a good start, but it won't quite get the job done. There are tone changes to worry about. Also, for pronunciation (not just tones), you really do need to learn the specific differences between zh/j and ch/q, and how to make some of the sounds (such as retroflex) that we don't have in English. The FSI Pronunciation Module tackles all of the above, and if you study the tapes and PDFs well, you'll be ready to pronounce pretty much anything you encounter.
