My question kind of connects to this topic, so...
Does anyone of you learn both traditional and simplified characters, possibly after learning Kanji before as well? If so, what are your strategies to distinguish traditional and simplified versions of the same characters?

Don't get me wrong, Japanese is the love of my life, but lately I'm kind of flirting with Mandarin Chinese (don't let them know ). In the end I want to be able to read both traditional and simplified Chinese script. It is possibly a good idea to start with traditional characters (at least I was told so many times) but what happens if you run into a character that was simplified in Japanese and has essentially the same meaning (and keyword) in both languages? Or what if run into a character that was simplified later on? What about two completely different simplifications (eg. 龍, 龙, 竜)? Do you use different keywords? Or maybe more than one story for one keyword?
Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

I've been wondering about this too.
To me it would make a lot more sense, to learn traditional characters first, and then learn how the characters were simplified. I imagine the vast majority of characters were simplified in a fairly standardised way. Eg. complex radicals replaced with simpler ones. I haven't actually researched this though.

For most characters I think this is true. For example 話, 語, and 詰 become 话, 语 and 诘 respectively. Or characters that use 鳥 in traditional characters use the simplified version 鸟 instead for the most part (鸠,鸣). Same goes for 魚 / 鱼, 門 / 门 etc.
Those are no problem at all (I hope ), but there are also cases where a part of the original character becomes the character itself (飛 / 飞) or is replaced by a character that has seemingly no connection whatsoever (體 / 体). This is where my confusion begins.

There's also many exceptions along the way I guess. But maybe someone who actually studied Chinese can help both of us out.

Take a look at the zhongwen book...it can be pretty useful for you

Traditional will be easier to learn if you've already done RTK. Simplified is relatively painless once you know traditional. Doing Simplified before Traditional is more difficult (that's what I did unfortunately). Your coworker, jmkeralis, is likely to think what he does because Chinese (mainland) kids are taught nearly from birth that simplified characters are easier to learn because they have fewer strokes. That's not really true (look at the literacy rates in China vs. Taiwan, for instance). It was very difficult for me to switch from Simplified to Traditional early on, and now that I know Traditional characters better, it's pretty easy for me to understand Simplified text, with only a character here and there that I can't figure out.

As far as Evil Dragon's question, this is how I have my deck organized (still a work in progress, but this will be the final outcome). I have all three character sets on each card, if necessary. If all three forms are the same, I only have it listed once. If the kanji is different from the hanzi, I have both forms on the same card. If all three are different (龍 龙 and 竜), I'll have all three listed. If the keywords are different, I'll defer to the RTH keyword (I started with RTH first, so RTH is the "master list," so to speak). Anything listed in RTK that isn't in RTH I give its own card with the RTK keyword (although still with variant forms if they exist). I hope all that was clear.

Once I'm done with all that I'll be working through Harbaugh's book (Chinese Characters: A Genealogy and Dictionary, the book version of zhongwen.com) if RTH 2 isn't out yet. BTW, zhongwen.com is great, but the book is 10 times better to have, IMO. The lookup system is a little awkward on the website but it's perfect in book form.

Oh, and so you know my background (I believe this is the first time I've posted here, since there's finally a Chinese section), I've been studying Chinese very part time for two years. I hardly know any Japanese besides the hiragana and a few phrases. I'm planning on going back to university to major in Chinese and minor in Japanese next year, which is why I'm learning all three scripts.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the traditional characters are easier to remember because there's more 'stuff' in each character - more to grab onto (and hence remember).

oyatsuhakarldesu Wrote:Since I am ultimitely interested in the historical development of kanji, I need to study traditional hanzi as well as the simplified ones.

The good thing about the Heisig method is, he generally ignores the historical development. Take the character 必, for example. A heart with a stroke, right? Wrong. The original components were 八 and 弋. But this revelation wouldn’t help a student remember the character, so who cares (apart from etymologists, that is).

With respect to Chinese etymology, I find the English term "traditional character" for the Taiwan Standard Style (台灣正題) misleading at times. It may be more traditional than the Mainland standard, but in some cases it’s really a more or less arbitrary pick of one variant among many. They could as well be dubbed "traditionalized characters", because some of the so-called simplified variants used to be more common traditionally than their Taiwan Zhengti equivalents nowadays. For example, in Wang Xizhi's famous Preface to the Orchid Pavilion from the year 353, one third of the running style characters are written in a simplified variant. Calligraphers use style dictionaries with facsimiles and rubbings from steles to look up the numerous traditional variants.

That said, I can only recommend to everyone starting with the (traditional) Taiwanese Standard! Not only are 東, 車, 門 more beautiful than 东, 车, 门, they are also easier to remember.

This is what Heisig has to say about this (RTH, p. 7 f.):

Quote:(...) the student should know that certain overlaps in the books would only cause confusion if the two versions are studied simultaneously. If your aim is to achieve fluency in writing both systems, then it is preferable to begin with the traditional.

At some point you will want to read news/books/subtitles from Taiwan.
And if this is worth any consideration, being able to write traditional characters you will impress both Taiwanese and mainlanders, while simplified characters tend to put off many Taiwanese.

transalpin Wrote:

oyatsuhakarldesu Wrote:Since I am ultimitely interested in the historical development of kanji, I need to study traditional hanzi as well as the simplified ones.

The good thing about the Heisig method is, he generally ignores the historical development. Take the character 必, for example. A heart with a stroke, right? Wrong. The original components were 八 and 弋. But this revelation wouldn’t help a student remember the character, so who cares (apart from etymologists, that is).

I actually learnt 必ず using the original etymology as I was so fascinated by it. Etymolgy works sometimes. I was intrigued first and foremost from the strange stroke order of it that it could not have simply been the intuitive 心＋ノ. Thus the pictograph of a harlberd, lance, speaker whatever being held firmly and with certainty between two poles | | stuck quite well after I looked it up.

transalpin Wrote:The good thing about the Heisig method is, he generally ignores the historical development. Take the character 必, for example. A heart with a stroke, right? Wrong. The original components were 八 and 弋. But this revelation wouldn’t help a student remember the character, so who cares (apart from etymologists, that is).

You surely meant "the bad thing about the Heisig method.."? Who decides that a story about a heart with a stroke is easier to remember that the one including 八 and 弋?! Who decides it's ok to withhold the actual historical data from students?

The book would have gained a lot if he had chosen to build stories on the actual etymologies (as some other authors did). But that was obviously too much work.

Serge Wrote:[...]
The book would have gained a lot if he had chosen to build stories on the actual etymologies (as some other authors did). But that was obviously too much work.

Good point. You should write that book. Dozo

Mr. Heisig points out in his intro that this was his personal "i wanna learn shapes in a month" method that he was requested to publish, so he did. He was not an author writing a book, and there were no promises made.

Serge Wrote:Who decides that a story about a heart with a stroke is easier to remember that the one including 八 and 弋?! Who decides it's ok to withhold the actual historical data from students?

You know, you're right! You've changed my perspective with this post. He withheld a lot of info from us! Like how to form words. Grammar. How the characters were adapted into Korean and Vietnamese. Oracle bones forms. Who decides that it's ok to withhold this info from us?

Oh wait, none of that was the purpose of the book. I doubt it was intended to be an etymology textbook either. Maybe I'll go find one of those when I want to learn etymology.

welldone101 Wrote:Mr. Heisig points out in his intro that this was his personal "i wanna learn shapes in a month" method that he was requested to publish, so he did. He was not an author writing a book, and there were no promises made.

The method (breaking characters down to parts and using mnemonics) could be described on two pages. But that wouldn't sell. Anyway, I've stated my views on RTK and particularly on the counterproductive RTH before and have no intention to go over it again. Was just amazed that someone in this thread could value learning a piece of nonsense ("heart with a stroke") over learning a true fact. Yet, suum cuique.

Serge Wrote:The method (breaking characters down to parts and using mnemonics) could be described on two pages. But that wouldn't sell. Anyway, I've stated my views on RTK and particularly on the counterproductive RTH before and have no intention to go over it again. Was just amazed that someone in this thread could value learning a piece of nonsense ("heart with a stroke") over learning a true fact. Yet, suum cuique.

I'm pretty sure he was valuing what let him remember it easiest. Which as you can see is obviously different from the next poster. The bottom line is, it's a brain trying to remember a shape; the value of something (which is relative really to the scale you are using, come on) or the truth of it, or the fact of it.. or as you so "eloquently" and redundantly stated the "true fact" -iness of it, has no impact on how ones neuron's function. On that scale one workable method has just as much value as another and it's easy to see where a comment like that could come from. Imposing your value system on it is the same kind of snobby, looking down upon that usually stymies education reform. You even ended in Latin, beautiful.

welldone101 Wrote:Imposing your value system on it is the same kind of snobby, looking down upon that usually stymies education reform. You even ended in Latin, beautiful.

We aim to please and any corrections of my non-native English are most welcome.

And imposing cutting corners for the sake of perceived efficiency defeats the whole purpose of education.

Oh, and "stymie" would make a great keyword for some obscure character like 礙!!! ;-)))

Serge Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:Imposing your value system on it is the same kind of snobby, looking down upon that usually stymies education reform. You even ended in Latin, beautiful.

We aim to please and any corrections of my non-native English are most welcome.

And imposing cutting corners for the sake of perceived efficiency defeats the whole purpose of education.

Oh, and "stymie" would make a great keyword for some obscure character like 礙!!! ;-)))

Not everyone needs to know the correct etymology of the characters. The book doesn't pretend to teach etymology; it is intended to teach students to remember how to write them. If that is the goal, then "heart with a stroke" is much more useful than "弋 plus 八." Now, if learning etymology is the goal, then it makes perfect sense to learn the etymology (go figure).

Plus, in RTH, Heisig does say it "did not really evolve from the heart even though we take it that way." He also does not say "heart with a stroke," not that it matters.

My point is, if you want to learn etymology, buy an etymology text. If you want to remember how to write the characters, then RTH does what it says it will.

Is there an excel sheet available with the RTH/RTK data David556 pasted some time ago?
I have learned Kanji with RTK and would like to go on with Chinese.

impaler Wrote:Is there an excel sheet available with the RTH/RTK data David556 pasted some time ago?
I have learned Kanji with RTK and would like to go on with Chinese.

You don't need a spreadsheet. Since you are well versed in the Heisig method now, just learn the hanzi as you encounter them. That way you'll get readings and vocab at the same time. Much more efficient than going on a big out-of-context crusade

You're right, i do not need the spread sheet.
Actually i want to import only the RTK/RTH differences to Anki.
Experience tells me, that learning both reading and Kanji along the way does not work well for me.
I rather prefer learning sequentially, first Kanji/meaning then the reading.

Ok, i persuaded excel to accept the double spaces when copying David's list from the forum posting.
Here is the result as a list:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/1jwwlp

The txt-file is UTF8-encoded, there should be no problem importing this into any spread sheet app.

As said, i'd like to use this in Anki. I suppose i am not the only one who'd like to have this. So here is my selfish proposal to the excited:

Participate and...
- Proofread and correct the list
- Add the missing Kanji/Hanzi info
- add the German meanings (yes, i am selfish)

--- Explanation of the file content (taken from David) ---
Type Lesson Kanjiproperty
1. These are the characters that are the same for Kanji and Simplified Hanzi (878 at all). You can see that even most of the keywords are similiar.
Lesson 1
Kanjiproperty identical

2. Because Japanese Characters were borrowed from Traditional Hanzi, there are some characters in Simplified Hanzi that are similiar, but not identical, to Kanji characters.
Here are these characters, divided into groups. Every group has a common component that was changed from the Traditional Character."
Lesson 2-27
Kanjiproperty SamCmp

3. Traditional characters that were simplified by removing part of the character:
Lesson 28
Kanjiproperty RemovedBushu

4. A list of changes that cannot be grouped
Lesson 29
Kanjproperty NoGrp

5. After learning all of that, there are only 370 characters to be learned. Some of them (about 100) have equivalents in RTK3. First, equivalents with same character for both Kanji and Simplified Hanzi.
Lesson 30
Kanjiproperty RTK3Same

5. with changes
Lesson 31
Kanjiproperty RTK3Chg

Missing entries are all put in Lesson 0, Kanjiproperty DataMissing

---
To Google with Love:
Vereinfachte Hanzi Excel xls Liste txt
Die Kanji lernen und behalten Excel xls Liste
Remembering the Kanji xls Excel
Remembering the Hanzi xls Excel txt

impaler Wrote:Experience tells me, that learning both reading and Kanji along the way does not work well for me.
I rather prefer learning sequentially, first Kanji/meaning then the reading.

As a beginning Japanese student, I had the same experience, so I did RTK. When I got to Mandarin, I did Pimsleur and worked with a language partner, using only pinyin. When I finally started to read, I had about a 2000 word vocabulary. I realized I knew most of the characters already from Japanese. I put the words into anki, meaning on one side, characters on the other. I also made a flashcard for individual characters with keyword & pinyin on one side and hanzi on the other. That plus reading regularly allowed me to remember everything very well. Learning to read Mandarin was much easier than Japanese for me.

I recommend against using Heisig for Mandarin, if you have used it for Japanese, for many reasons, most notably - you'll be studying a bunch of characters you haven't encountered yet.

Maybe you've already tried my method above, and it didn't work. But if you haven't, I encourage you to give it a go. Please don't let your experiences of when you were a budding Japanese student keep you from trying this easier route.

贞 54 modest 55 貞 upright
should be:
贞 54 chaste 55 貞 upright

91 叮 bite
should be:
91 叮 sting

顶 94 turn down 94 頂 place on the head
should be:
顶 94 crest 94 頂 place on the head

贯 106 pass through 102 貫 pierce
should be:
贯 106 pierce 102 貫 pierce

this is only of the first 106, so I imagine there are a lot more flaws in this list.
I also suggest looking at:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=4413
Which might not give the same satisfaction as a post like this, but it's also definitely something interesting to have a look at!

-Mesqueeb

Does anyone still have a copy of this list in a digestible format? It looks like impaler's sendspace submission has been deleted.

leosmith Wrote:I recommend against using Heisig for Mandarin, if you have used it for Japanese, for many reasons, most notably - you'll be studying a bunch of characters you haven't encountered yet.

Isn't learning a bunch of characters we haven't encountered yet the point of using Heisig for Mandarin? I'm sorry, I think I missed your point for not using Heisig for mandarin.....(?)

So I get that this thread talks and focuses a lot about the similarities and differences of simplified hanzi, but does anyone know if it's worth investing in the books for traditional hanzi if we've already done RTK? OR...... is simplified hanzi so popular here because the traditional hanzi covered is identical to the 3000 learned in the RTK series? And that there are no more new characters to be learned aside from going the simplified route and just learning different strokes for the same characters? I supposed I could just buy the traditional hanzi book but if someone has seen it already, it'll save me a trip and a possible return of purchase...

I also realize that the 2nd book isn't out yet so I guess I"m just referring to the 1st traditional hanzi vol.

Thanks

I've finished RTH(trad) 1. My RTK progress was really weird though it was linear up to 1200, then I did a random bunch in between. Then for a long time I did not touch my reviews. And so since I was planning on starting Chinese I figured I'd start RTH1 from scratch. As RTH2 isn't out yet, right now I'm just adding characters I come across that I don't know that I think are worthwhile learning. So far I'm doing just fine with RTH1 alone. Learning characters are by far the least of my worries right now. It's hard enough to pronounce words let alone discern what a native speaker is saying.

I have a few grammar books + (zhongwen red/green/blue/etc) most are in Simplified Chinese, but every study deck I make is in traditional chinese, and so far I can only just recognize some simplified forms. The idea that associates 'less strokes -> easier to memorize' is by far the most incomprehensible thing that I've ever heard come across I don't know what ass came up with that idea but I sincerely do hope traditional wins the war. </vent>

It's really up to you. I can't stand the sight of simplified characters, and I make the least possible effort to learn them.