Hello everyone

After half a year of studying Japanese while ignoring RTK (I was 'learning' kanji, well... reading them ) I finally gave in and tried it.

I'm up to 340 now (after... ... I don't know how long, but too long!), and while I certainly notice the effects (it does work)... I think I'm doing *something* wrong.

Usually I add something like 5 kanji a day, which really isn't that much, and shouldn't be too much in any way. I did the first 100~150 in a few days, I had already tried to do RTK some time before, but gave up after 80 or so.

The thing is, I 'learn' the kanji (go through the book, add them here and make stories for them/copy stories), go away and after a few hours~half a day I review them... By that time I've usually already forgotten 2 or 3 of them.

The last few kanji (300~340) I tried to make my own stories, instead of just copying someone else's... I thought it was working... At least made my recall for the first review a little bit better... But it isn't helping me remember them for longer than a few days.

Actually, I think the kanji do stick, but the connection with the keyword... not so much, and the stories... I do remember them - when I see the kanji.


What makes things harder still; I have a huge problem with 'imagining' things, as in... 'seeing them'. I can't even picture my best friend's face, or... well, my memories are words-only most of the time.

So, I have a really really hard time 'seeing' the stories and therefore remembering the kanji. I hope it's something that can be learned though... and I'm trying. For a few stories this is working (a villa with flowers, half a turtle shell and a statue of a samurai, I can imagine that, now.) but ... it's very very hard.

Anyway... any ideas?

... The first 300 kanji weren't a problem (most are familiar anyway)... But now I'm starting to mess up because I was learning them "Keyword - primitives - = kanji!" but I keep placing parts in the wrong places because of that. I tried giving hints of the place of different parts in the stories, but that doesn't help much.

I'm annoyed with myself because... I'm doing so well, (words I know, understanding spoken Japanese), and I would really really like to just go through with this and finally learn the kanji... But going this slow, and only getting a recall rate of 70~80 %? It doesn't work. ...And isn't worth it.

... And I guess this post also gives an idea of how messy and 'random' my thoughts are? Sorry about that..

I think you just need to be patient. A 70-80% recall rate isn't that bad. Maybe you could try increasing the number of new kanji you study every day (if you have enough time), you may find out that it won't impact your recall rate much and you'll be making progress faster.

But most importantly forgetting is part of the process. It's normal to forget things many times before they finally stick. Also try to find stories that will be easy to remember from the keyword. When I don't remember a story I ask myself questions. Like if that's a verb Who <keyword> what? Where? Why? So I can use that when making my stories and it helps with the keyword -> story part of the remembering process.

Also I don't believe that you're somehow unable to visualize the stories. You don't need to have a "vision" of crystal clear quality. Just think about it, imagine the situation, that's all. It's like when you read a novel, you don't get a TV feed of what's going on in your brain, but somehow we can still all follow what's happening.

70-80% recall isn't too bad, actually. If you do both RTKI and III, and only recall 80% of 3,000 kanji, that's about 2,400 kanji. You're just going to have to be patient. Even if your recall rate isn't what you'd like it to be, you're still going to chop off a huge amount of time otherwise wasted learning the Hard Way.

I've noticed that my recall rates will fluctuate depending on how I feel. Some days I'm hitting 90-95%, other days it's a struggle to keep it in the 70s.

Someone had a really good idea here-- for components like the "road" radical, think of a very specific thing. Like a very specific road you've been on. It helps a bit.

Also try playing with word associations. See what sort of word associations you make with the keywords, and play off of those. The cleverest story won't work if it doesn't strike a responsive chord in your brain.

I also think it might help if you add more kanji per day. I started doing RTK about 1 week ago, and have been adding about 20-40 kanji per day. Try to go through a whole lesson at a time, unless the lesson is really long, in which case you should split it up over a few days. The kanji in each lesson are related to each other and use common pieces, so its easy to learn them all together at once.

Also, I have been using Anki in addition to the review here on this site. This basically doubles the amount that I am actually reviewing the cards, so it helps push them into my memory better, especially in the first couple days of learning them.

If you have trouble remembering a story when seeing the keyword, then change your story to something you might remember better. I've also found that on a number of kanji, I had read lots of the stories that other people wrote, and when reviewing the kanji, I would remember it by one of those stories rather than the one I chose! So the story you *think* you might remember most easily might not always be the one thats really the best.

I'm pretty much a words-only kind of a person too, and I just stuck card 1000 into the system, so the method can work even if your brain doesn't work like Heisig's (he seems to be a pretty visual kind of guy). I think the best approach, as has been suggested already, is to try to make the link with the keyword as strong as possible. So for instance for frame 334 ('awe') I borrowed somebody's story that started out with 'shock and awe', which is a 'flowery phrase' from Bush (a 'taskmaster'). If you can get from the keyword to at least part of the story, then you've got a bigger bridge to build out to the rest of the story. Usually my failures of recall are (like you) the draw-a-complete-blank kind, so having a really obvious association to take you from the keyword towards the story is handy. Somebody suggested that you should start out by saying 'what does this keyword bring to mind?' even before you look at the kanji and the components you need to bring in.

I find word-jingles and rhymes and puns and so on work too, eg 331 'failure': The drill sergeant is yelling: "you horrible little clam!" at some poor shellfish recruit who's washed out (of the marines, of course) as a complete failure...

i have days where ill have 90% , and then days where my mind just goes blank and I get 60% or so, im learning around 20 a day at the moment and the retention seems about right to myself.

Im up to 369 myself, so im around the same area

I have found that some I can learn very easy, and others I just struggle with and have failed 4/5 times in a row - but I just keep plugging on and change the story slightly each time until I get the one that will "sink in"

So....keep up the good work



Additionally, I have Anki installed but havent worked out how to do the Kanji yet on the software, I do however intend to use it as a secondary learning technique (Im not sure at the moment how to enter the Kanji into Anki - it appears you have to know the actual word in Japanese, which is something im not ready for at the moment)

There's a Heisig deck for Anki right here:

http://ichi2.net/anki/wiki/ExtraDecks

EDIT-- uh... maybe not? I don't see it there. Ah, never mind. It's one of the sample decks that comes with the program. Just go file-> open sample deck

BUT I would NOT recommend doing Anki and RvTK at the same time for Heisig. Do one or the other, but not both-- if you're going to push your memory curve, you need to pick one or the other to do it. The idea is remembering until you almost forget. If you keep reviewing all the time, it'll take longer to get it into long-term memory.

I used to do Twinkle and RevTK at the same time, and it really hurt my ability to retain kanji over time. I found my retentions eventually improved when I just stuck to RevTK.

My comment is going to be "Your Mileage May Vary". YMMV. We're all different, and our brains are just more comfortable with somethings than other people. So, don't fight it! Make up the stories the way that you DO remember things. I notice that some people's stories are based on the kanji, not so much the keyword. To me, that doesn't really work. I then remember the story when I see the kanji, but not when I see the keyword. So, an approach (which has seemed to work better for me) may be to focus on what the keyword triggers, and build the story starting there, to then work in the primatives of the kanji. It doesn't always have to be a "visual" story, if they don't work for you. That just works for lots of people, but YMMV. The "right" way is the way that works for you.

To me it sounds like a short term memory problem.

SRS systems are great for long term memory, but the catch is that it has to be fairly stable in short term memory first.

Try doing this:
While you are doing your new kanji/finishes today's new Kanji, wait only 10-15 minutes and see if you can recall a kanji (from keyword). If you can, keep increasing that time: 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours etc. This should help you over the next few days. Make sure if you review a kanji which shares a primitive with another that you don't review them right next to each other.

Since you're only doing 5 a day, two other things should help also:
1) Absolutely do not let your cards get stuck in failed. Make sure you know the kanji from a long time ago, and that can help you know new kanji which share primitives.
2) Try writing your new kanji 10-15 times (rote memorization). Just make sure you actually think while writing it. Say the primitives when you write them (or something similar). If you're doing a light load like 5 a day, doing this shouldn't be a problem/too time consuming and can benefit you.

When I go to create my own story, I lie down, and let the elements swirl around in my mind. Sometimes, I let myself fall into a near-sleep state, until I put the pieces together. This will make craziness happen. I've had creatures with the sun for a head, and an eye for a body meditating pop up; the shoop-da-whoop even managed to fit into a few stories.
All that matters is that the story works, and that you remember it. Don't feel like you have to rush things; lie down, relax, and let your mind flux.

Finally I remembered all new kanji I added yesterday, I think it could be a good idea to test them only on the day after adding.

74% recall on the expired cards today, but I did remember some kanji I used to have a little trouble with... So I guess I'm ok with that.

I really think I should work more on the keyword and what I *do* think of when I see the word... And it's funny noticing that the words I didn't know/didn't know very well are so much harder to learn ("admonish", really had to look that up). So I'm learning some new English words as well

Thanks for all the replies...

I usually get less than 70% success. I think the method works well with some people and not so well with others. It seems that sometimes mnemonics simply don't take, and even when I think I have a good one, ultimately it's time that decides what works, not me.

I've been away for a couple of months due to illness, and I'm finding I only remember about half (excluding the ones that I already knew before I started RTK). That raises another point. It's also important to use the review page every day or two, even if only a few turn up. The system works by gradually increasing the period between tests for each individual character, which is supposed to increase the rate of transfer to long-term memory.

I shudder to think of where I'd be without using the review page. It's the first thing I do when I wake up every morning. I usually average 80something% recall rate.. I'm thrilled if it's in the 90s and very annoyed when it's in the 70s. But, without the SRS helping my brain out, I'd still be copying 100 of them over and over and over, I'll bet, and forgetting half of them.

Again, I'll encourage you to notice what exactly works for you, and then to go with your strengths. Think about all the different ways of learning: auditory, visual, by touch, by movement, by writing, by explaining, oral, music, etc. Find the channel(s) that work for you and then figure out how to bring kanji thru there. The only purpose is to get it into the long term memory. Each of us is unique, so use that special gift that is yours.