Hello all,

As some of you might have seen (as of this writing, a few posts below this one) I was wondering about vocabulary decks vs. sentence decks. Well, I've put priority on my sentence deck and started only adding new cards to that deck, while just reviewing cards from my vocabulary deck to keep that knowledge up.

It's only been a little under two weeks since shifting focus to sentences and I know I need to give it more time. Something in the back of my mind makes me feel worried doing sentences. So I was hoping some people could share their experiences with sentences and hopefully give me some tips. That should also ease my worries.

I'm struggling to not translate sentences in my head. Sometimes I have to read sentences a few times to make sure I've understood it. And sometimes it just feels really slow. I think my vocabulary deck was really fast-paced for me, so sentences seem a bit more slow and clunky. I studied 2 cards (recognition and production) per note for my vocabulary deck and that enabled me to learn single words really quickly and also took care of the spelling. I guess it also gave an immediate reward when answering too. While sentences don't feel like they really give me a reward at all.

I've learned just over 400 sentences now. So I know I have a long way to go. I just can't get the worries out of my head by telling myself "it'll get better after a few thousand sentences."

What are your experiences with sentences? Around how many sentences did you finally get comfortable with them and start to see a little payback?

Thanks!

Wovaki Wrote:What are your experiences with sentences? Around how many sentences did you finally get comfortable with them and start to see a little payback?

Thanks!

I tried doing flashcards with whole sentences and hated it. It just takes too long, and the "context" provided by the sentences didn't add enough value to make the experience worthwhile.

Lately I exclusively drill myself with flashcards each showing one compound only (no sentence). I'm finding that the readings and meanings are "sticking" really well. (Note that I did spend a lot of time first drilling myself on the "signal primitives" from RTK2 and that helps a lot). I'm finding that when I meet these compounds "in the wild" I recall them.

john555 Wrote:It just takes too long

This is why you style it so the key word stands out in the sentence and the sentence is only there as a hint.

vix86 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:It just takes too long

This is why you style it so the key word stands out in the sentence and the sentence is only there as a hint.

The other problem with whole sentences is that they give too much of a hint. If the sentence is "Pour the cake ____ into the pan and put the pan into the oven" it's kind of obvious that the compound ______ means "batter".

Again, that's just me...other people will have different likes, dislikes, fetishes, preferences, pet peeves, etc.

john555 Wrote:The other problem with whole sentences is that they give too much of a hint. If the sentence is "Pour the cake ____ into the pan and put the pan into the oven" it's kind of obvious that the compound ______ means "batter".

That would be a good way to do it if you wanted to learn to produce the word "batter" in context (but how do you know that the word is not "mixture"?) I did that for some cards in technical subjects in English and it works well for what it proposes, but I don't know how well it would work for newbies in Japanese, it seems kind of hard to retrieve the word that way. I think a lot of passive recognition is needed beforehand. On the other hand, I don't see much problem with the "too much of a hint", although it depends on the kind of sentences you use, and reading a lot will fix the gaps that this introduces. It's a balancing act: any method has its benefits and downsides.

Wovaki Wrote:So I was hoping some people could share their experiences with sentences and hopefully give me some tips.

The way I do it now that I'm back into studying Japanese for two months (after some incursions into Chinese and French*), with this type of card in Anki – plus an amazing grammar book –, I can see some progress but I'm only on the 2010th Core 10k card right now and I can say it's not enough for pretty much anything I want to do. Let's see when I get to 6000, 9567 and beyond, maybe I will report it somewhere. Only thing is that unfortunately Japanese is not my priority so it may take some time. Now explaining what I have been doing with that card: I pay attention to the word in blue, produce its reading and meaning (looking at the rest of the sentence if context is needed), hear the isolated word, then the whole sentence with which I try to do some shadowing on the spot, then rate accordingly. I use as steps the values 1 60.

I think vocabulary alone could be faster, but harder, and you would lack what you can get with sentences. I'm not sure – we need more people doing things in different ways and reporting back what they have achieved, really.

* French is so much easier than Japanese that I achieved a level good enough to read and listen to pretty much anything I want in a matter of months, and without having to use Anki for anything (but I lack production skills, which I have never practiced for lack of real need.)

gdaxeman Wrote:

john555 Wrote:The other problem with whole sentences is that they give too much of a hint. If the sentence is "Pour the cake ____ into the pan and put the pan into the oven" it's kind of obvious that the compound ______ means "batter".

That would be a good way to do it if you wanted to learn to produce the word "batter" in context (but how do you know that the word is not "mixture"?)

No, it couldn't possibly be "mixture." In English, you talk of pouring cake batter into a pan, never cake mixture.

john555 Wrote:No, it couldn't possibly be "mixture." In English, you talk of pouring cake batter into a pan, never cake mixture.

Learning these little nuances is exact what makes sentences decks more powerful than vocabulary decks. You learn the kinds of contexts that a particular word is used in. If you just rely on an English gloss then you won't always know the proper usage and end up saying silly things like 薬を取る instead of using proper Japanese.

john555 Wrote:

gdaxeman Wrote:

john555 Wrote:The other problem with whole sentences is that they give too much of a hint. If the sentence is "Pour the cake ____ into the pan and put the pan into the oven" it's kind of obvious that the compound ______ means "batter".

That would be a good way to do it if you wanted to learn to produce the word "batter" in context (but how do you know that the word is not "mixture"?)

No, it couldn't possibly be "mixture." In English, you talk of pouring cake batter into a pan, never cake mixture.

<serious nitpicking mode>

Saying "pour the cake mixture into the pan" is perfectly valid. Actually, in the UK, saying "pour the cake batter into the pan" sounds really odd, unless you'real making pancakes, in which case you wouldn't put the pan into the oven, but rather onto the ring/flame/hot plate depending on what sort if cooker you had.

</nitpick>

I guess this illustrates the importance of extensive reading over just memorising vocabulary or drilling sentences.

Wovaki Wrote:I'm struggling to not translate sentences in my head. Sometimes I have to read sentences a few times to make sure I've understood it. And sometimes it just feels really slow. I think my vocabulary deck was really fast-paced for me, so sentences seem a bit more slow and clunky. I studied 2 cards (recognition and production) per note for my vocabulary deck and that enabled me to learn single words really quickly and also took care of the spelling. I guess it also gave an immediate reward when answering too. While sentences don't feel like they really give me a reward at all.

I've learned just over 400 sentences now. So I know I have a long way to go. I just can't get the worries out of my head by telling myself "it'll get better after a few thousand sentences."

What are your experiences with sentences? Around how many sentences did you finally get comfortable with them and start to see a little payback?

Thanks!

I wouldn't worry if you have to translate some sentences in your head. Rather, translating sentences is just not something that you should strive to do. Japanese grammar is just so different from english that it's awkward translating, so it's just natural to just read the sentence in japanese without any special effort. But if you have to translate the occasional word or sentence in your head to get the meaning, it's not something that harms your learning.

You've been doing sentences for 2 weeks? I'd say give it some more time. The gains you get from reading sentences aren't as obvious as watching your vocabulary count going up in anki. It's more like watching your hair grow - you don't notice it from day to day, but after several months you'll notice that hundreds of sentences you had trouble with all of a sudden make sense.

Some people don't like reading single sentences, so perhaps you could try picking up a graded reader and see if that's more enjoyable reading. Besides that, I'm afraid there's not much you can do - if you want to read japanese, you have to practice reading japanese somehow.

I've only used sentences as the question for grammar points, which I'm not particularly concerned about memorizing, just reminding myself they exist. Even so, I've run into this problem where I know the card and the answer just by reading the sentence (often just the first few words, but I do only have about 100 of these) rather than recognizing the grammar and remembering it.
This even happens with my Core deck sometimes, even though I am testing for vocabulary recognition: since I put the example sentence on the front, and read it for a hint if a word doesn't immediately come to me (not very often anymore, since I'm several months into pure reviewing on that deck), those words that refuse to stick through Anki are often completely given away by their sentences, without my understanding the word directly. I'm not even pulling from actual context clues or anything, I just remember the answer based on the sentence without trying.

The only way I can see to get around this is to have more than one sentence (probably three, at the least) per term, but that's even clunkier than sentences already are.

Perhaps this isn't the case for you, which would be great. I do still stand behind the 'word and sentence on front' -> 'reading, meaning, and sentence reading (and meaning, if you're a beginner) on back' format though (I've also found the extra sentences on the back, as done in the more recent Core10k decks, to be really useful when learning or relearning a word); you have the sentences, but you're primarily being quizzed on the vocabulary. This and extensive reading have been the bulk of my study, and they've worked out well (though I do suggest studying grammar sooner than I did, if you're not already).

gdaxeman Wrote:* French is so much easier than Japanese that I achieved a level good enough to read and listen to pretty much anything I want in a matter of months, and without having to use Anki for anything (but I lack production skills, which I have never practiced for lack of real need.)

This works well for languages similar to our L1. I learned english the same way as gdaxeman learned french.

Some people don't use Anki/SRS at all, even for the Japanese language (see Steve Kauffman, laoshu505000, Luca Lampariello). They rely mostly on heavy reading and listening.

Honestly I think that for the Japanese language it's best to rely on an SRS software in conjunction to extensive reading. Mostly because of kanji (IMHO).

How much and in what way to use Anki depends mostly on how much time you spend on extensive reading (and listening). If you read a lot, sentences became less necessary (but still useful), but if you intend to grind the Core deck as your main exposure to japanese language, then I think you need sentences.

Note:
1.You don't have to memorize the sentence. Just understand it and move on. If possible, try imagining a scenario where the sentence could be used.
2. Sentences should be maximum ~15 characters long when you are a beginner and ~26 when you are advanced. Any more than that and you will get frustrated. It should (or eventually would) take you 5-6 seconds/sentence.

If it makes you feel any better, I have recently reached 6000 mark and my reading speed has gotten REALLY fast, so I think sentence have merits. The thing is, when you use only Vocabulary, how are you going to review them? Of course, you will use English i.e. translation which is to be avoided. The sentence brings your focus off the English and towards Japanese. You need to develop an intimate relationship with the words in context. If not, what is the use of memorizing only words when you can't used them?). Sentences do a great job of it.
On a side not, my friend and I started learning Japanese together. He did 6000 (J-E), only vocabulary Core-Cards in 3 months and I did 6000 J-J w/sentences in 6 months. Currently (at 6 months mark), not to brag, I think I am way above him in understanding the language. I can guess readings/meanings/nuances better, enjoy higher level of native media, and have finally *understood* the grammar (after reading grammatically correct sentences for so long, I got used to it).

The sentence SHOULD give hints (unless they are not blatantly obvious). I know that many beginners think that if they master vocabulary, they are going to master the language. Sadly, it is not that easy. If you master the conjunction of vocabulary and grammar (i.e. language), you will master the language.

"Building site" sounds good, but "Building place" sounds a bit off even though site and place have same meaning. "Site" also has many meanings like "place (ha!)" and "website". Assume you encounter a word like this. How would you add them in Anki without confusing. If you have done RTK, you should know exactly what I mean. Ever confused "drown" for "drowning" even though you knew which one was which?

Then there are words that have multiple usage/meanings.
Example: 掛ける/掛かる. This will be a nightmare for solo-Vocab learners.
Here are some of my beginner sentences:
時間が掛かる。
手間が掛かる。
コートを小部屋に掛ける。 (and many more. I don't want to bore you)
I have practically memorized them (unknowingly). Whenever the words 掛ける appears in Naruto, I don't go through every meaning in my head and try to make every English meaning fit. I just read the sentences, and understand it. Technically someone who reads a LOT would also be able to do this. RTK works with non-context things because it is NOT for leaning kanji. It is for recognising and separating different squiggles. You just feel like you learn Japanese (because of keywords, which you will eventually forget btw).

Sorry for the small rant though.
On a side note: From what I have heard, you can switch to Vocabulary again at ~8000 words.

頑張れ！

案ずるより産むが易し。

I've found sentences to be more useful (and I've tried both btw)... and sentences accompanied with extensive reading is even better.

This is an issue I've been thinking about. I started on the core 6k using the sentences, then became aware that I was remembering the meanings of the words from the entire sentence. "This sentence means this this and this, so that word must mean that and this one is that" and concluded I wasn't properly memorizing the words for long-term retention and retrieval out of the context I "learned" them in. So I switched to vocab.

Did 1300 cards that way for a week (most of them were words I already knew from doing Genki I), and once I got to stuff I had largely never seen before went back to doing sentences (with a new core 10k deck).

The sentences are frustrating because they are often n+2/3+grammar point I'm not understanding+sentence translation that makes no sense. I'm not sure if they're the best way to go, but seeing the way a word is actually used over and over again seems like an okay way to remember somehow the gist of its true usage. The more common words will come up repeatedly in different contexts, so the sentences will definitely reinforce those (you could think of this as cheating though, since without the constant reinforcement you would've forgotten the actual word, but it is counter-intuitive to learning Japanese to say that too much Japanese impedes your true "learning" of Japanese).

The biggest frustration of the core sentences is the n+2/3 sentences. My newfound knowledge of Morphman has largely fixed this issue however, and allowed me to focus on stuff I already knew and to slowly get into things completely unfamiliar like 複雑 and about 10 sentences with 検査, so at least for words that repeat using sentences really helps.

The actual derivation of meaning from the sentences is something that does not come easy to me at this point. I've not yet read through Tae Kim completely, nor have I gone past Genki I so perhaps that would allow me to come to terms with the Japanese sentence and the English "translation" (which doesn't ever follow closely to what's actually being said in Japanese unfortunately).

Jesus this is a ramble. Anyhow, at about 1200/9567 sentences, I'm not sure if this is a good method. The whole context of kanji readings is not working well for me. I seem to be attaching the readings to a word as a whole for the most part, so if a kanji then comes in a new word without the familiar kanji next to it, I can't even guess the reading of the "familiar" kanji. I can sometimes, but not consistently enough. I'm feeling like I need some sort of systematic learning of kanji readings for compound words (nothing can be done of course for erratic kun readings, which are easier to learn in context in my opinion).

I think vocabulary learning out of context would be best done with compound words, especially nouns. Having a vocab card for ちゃんと or 申し訳ない is not as good as using an example sentence. With a lot of nouns, I think its okay to have them alone using just vocab cards however. I'm now looking for some deck that gives this sort of thing so I can learn ON readings of kanji and be able to easily learn new compound words in the main core 10k deck. The one I found so far in the shared anki decks is the RTK 2 deck, but I found a word that uses rare ON readings and now it has made me distrust how common the other vocabulary readings given are.

In conclusion, my initial misgivings about sentences have been reduced slightly. I'd recommend using them. Even if you learn some words in a cheating way, going through 2/6/10k sentences will give you more knowledge than just words out of context (though it will take longer).

ALSO manman2a mentioned 掛ける/掛かる. Intransitive/transitive is a very important thing that isn't adequately portrayed with pure vocab cards (especially when they don't label which is which). This link gives some more info, but honestly I haven't yet read it. http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11178

Just seeing patterns that く endings in intransitive often turn to ける or that える transitives turn into ある intransitives (上げる、上がる、閉める、閉まる) helps a lot. I don't know enough words to know how consistent it is, but the link gives a lot of examples.

Thank you everyone for your replies! Sorry I'm late replying; work has been so busy this week!

I feel relieved to read other people's experiences, both for and against sentences. As was mentioned before, I'm only about 3 weeks into it now (~2 weeks at the writing of the original post) so I know I can't expect big returns yet. Although I will say I have had moments already where I've recognized a word or grammar point in real life that I studied exclusively in sentences. I've also had entire related sentences pop to mind just from hearing a word or about a situation.

So I'll give it a go and tweak it if need be. I think it'll take a long time before seeing the returns, as yogert909 mentioned. But when I was in middle/high school I had a pretty big English vocabulary compared to many of my classmates and I attribute that solely to the fact that I read novels in most of my free time. So I imagine sentence methods will be the same. Massive input, eventual massive output and even more massive understanding.

I'm really excited for the time when I can read manga and books without looking up every single word in every sentence.