In another thread I mentioned how I sucked at language acquisition. Some perceptive people mentioned that I didn't suck at acquisition, but more likely I suck at motivation.

This struck a chord with me so I've spent some time thinking about why my motivation sucks. My conclusion: I'm not really head over heels for Anki.

Does anyone know of other learning systems/study techniques suitable for someone at an early-intermediate stage of Japanese?

This is probably a dumb question, but I feel like I've been heavily relying on Anki for so long that I've forgot how to think outside the SRS box.

Well the obvious answer would be to just read/watch/play stuff that you enjoy in Japanese, if the SRS thing isn't working for you.

Zarxrax Wrote:Well the obvious answer would be to just read/watch/play stuff that you enjoy in Japanese, if the SRS thing isn't working for you.

Do this regardless of if SRS is working for you. Anki is much more tolerable when it's not your only interaction with Japanese. (EDIT: Not to say that you can't learn Japanese without SRS, but it's an invaluable time saver for vocab study; I suggest you continue to use Anki, just maybe cut back on it a bit (and, more importantly I think, doing something else as well).)

Personally, I don't mind studying with Anki (as long as the number of reviews doesn't go over the 'I don't want to do this' threshold, which is currently about 250 for me), but it's certainly not something I'd want to do without anything else...

If you've gotten to the level where you can read easy things (NHK EASY, easy children's manga, children's novels, subtitles, etc), then maybe you should enter the current Tadoku contest (readmod.com). We're already through the first third of the month, but there's still plenty of time to set a goal for yourself and try to reach it. I don't know how competitive you are (with yourself or others), but friendly competition amongst my peers is a good motivator for me.

[ファブリス]

A SRS is only one aspect of language learning. It's not even learning, imho. Just stimulating memory.

When I learned english I guess I was doing AEATT (All English All The Time). I put BBC Radio in the background all day.

I couldn't care less about Anki if I continued to learn Japanese seriously. I would just listen to Japanese all day (doesn't mean I support AJATT site, which I know barely anything about). It just makes sense to me. And i would frequently watch Japanese videos that I enjoy, especially ones that have subtitles. I would continue to play all those Japanese DS games I had on my Nintendo DS, etc.

ファブリス Wrote:A SRS is only one aspect of language learning. It's not even learning, imho. Just stimulating memory.

This really confused me about SRS for a while. I also thought it was just for remembering, and not intended for initial contact with content. (I stopped being confused when I realized this is indeed true, but people use it as a learning tool anyway.)

Zarxrax Wrote:Well the obvious answer would be to just read/watch/play stuff that you enjoy in Japanese, if the SRS thing isn't working for you.

sholum Wrote:Do this regardless of if SRS is working for you. Anki is much more tolerable when it's not your only interaction with Japanese.

ファブリス Wrote:When I learned english I guess I was doing AEATT (All English All The Time). I put BBC Radio in the background all day.

You guys make a good point. I do listen to Jpop/rock daily and watch raw media, but not at the level I used to. I came to the conclusion that my skull is too thick for any "passive" exposure to penetrate to my brain.

I guess I need to figure out how to digest Japanese content in a meaningful way. Hmm...

I see a lot about passive learning but I don't buy it. About as useful as sitting in a bathtub of books.

If you don't want to use Anki and would rather use native materials, use them actively, give them your attention.

There are songs in English I've been listening to for 40 years and I still don't know the words to them. Much like those Americans in the movie Canadian Bacon who keep singing the chorus "Born in the USA" because like most people they haven't a clue what the rest of the song is because of passive listening. I heard the song many times, never had a clue how it was actually down on the US and not some flag waving stuff one would expect.

Dudeist Wrote:I see a lot about passive learning but I don't buy it. About as useful as sitting in a bathtub of books.

I laughed. That's a great analogy, thumbs up.

I didn't mean to suggest purely passive input as 'not Anki' Japanese exposure. I don't think it's very useful to just play something in the background, try to understand it at least; however worrying about understanding everything in a passage is just as useless as pure passive input (or doing nothing) if it keeps you from doing anything.

[ファブリス]

No of course you shouldn't be only listening. Is there even such a thing? What I was trying to say is do things you enjoy, and usually listening to the target language is fun.

Obviously do a little bit of everything, learn some vocab regularly, go through a page or two of some textbooks, keep doing a little bit from all angles and it's very stimulating. Granted, an hour of listening every day is already a lot, but if you enjoy listening to the foreign language radio and it doesn't cost a penny (as it was for me putting on the BBC), not much harm done.

Listening doesn't have to be only passive. At least speaking for myself, I would not just recognize words I learned before, I would also notice certain sounds aka "words" (or expressions) that keep reappearing in the conversations.. and eventually I had to scratch the itch, and try to locate it in a dictionary to figure out what it was. So that's active.

That said songs are really challenging when learning a language. I swear even in french I can hardly make out the lyrics to a song just by hearing it.

edit: more or less what sholum said

edit2: I can only imagine how even more useful listening is today when you have Google. When I listened to the BBC all I could do is write down something, and use a paper dictionary. Now, you hear this weird word "scrumptious" and you're probably busy playing World of Warcraft on the computer already so you alt tab and type "scrumpous" in Google, and it tells you that sumptuous is a word. You're not sure, so you click that little speaker icon in the google result next to the definition, and now you know that wasn't it. So you try different spellings and you type in scrumptous" and Google tells you "Did you mean: scrumptious?" Kids these days...

CreepyAF, are you into anime? There are a lot of them with japanese subtitles so you can study the "script" ahead of time, identify all the unknown words and then you can see the anime with the japanese subtitles. I'm finding very useful to listen while I read the transcript (in this case the subtitles). This way many words seem to stick naturally thanks to the context of the anime (sound, images, voices) and the fact it is interesting.
After the first episodes it became easier because they keep reusing the same words.
I still use Anki but I add only words which already "sticked" and I fear to forget. So Anki became only a "quick review" thing.
After you've studied the japanese subtitles and watched the episode with them, try to rewatch it without them and try to catch as many words you can.
Then use the audio passively, if you want to. This way you're listening passively to comprehensible content, so it's not just gibberish. This way you strenghten your listening comprehension. By itself it's not miraculous, but in addition to other study, passive listening can be useful imho.

EDIT: I must add that by doing this I went from "I still need xy000 words in order to understand native media " to "wow, I've studied only 30 words today, and I'm understanding and ENJOYING native media! " <--- which after all is the only reason why I'm studying the japanese language, so... xD

I put a bunch of words into Anki but it became a secondary tool: I watch anime/read j-subtitles and after this I put some words into Anki in order not to forget them; and not, I put words into Anki in order to be able, some remote day, to understand an anime.

sholum Wrote:I didn't mean to suggest purely passive input as 'not Anki' Japanese exposure. I don't think it's very useful to just play something in the background, try to understand it at least; however worrying about understanding everything in a passage is just as useless as pure passive input (or doing nothing) if it keeps you from doing anything

ファブリス Wrote:No of course you shouldn't be only listening. Is there even such a thing? What I was trying to say is do things you enjoy, and usually listening to the target language is fun.

OK I see what you're saying.

I feel that I'm at a crossroad here. The textbook style content (i.e. distilled, broken into components, made for the purpose of language learning) offered by pre-built Anki decks has worn thin on me, but at the same time I feel native content is a bit too advanced. I guess it's time to take a leap of faith and jump into immersion.

cophnia61 Wrote:CreepyAF, are you into anime? There are a lot of them with japanese subtitles so you can study the "script" ahead of time, identify all the unknown words and then you can see the anime with the japanese subtitles. I'm finding very useful to listen while I read the transcript (in this case the subtitles). This way many words seem to stick naturally thanks to the context of the anime (sound, images, voices) and the fact it is interesting.

This sounds like a great idea. I've done this a few times for a movie or for a single episode in a TV series. At the time (several years ago) I found it somewhat difficult to track down Japanese sub files, but I bet that's changed.

ファブリス Wrote:I can only imagine how even more useful listening is today when you have Google. When I listened to the BBC all I could do is write down something, and use a paper dictionary.

I thank my lucky stars I live in the digital, post-dialup era. There is a great wealth of easily accessed resources that really take the leg work out of language learning.

***

As a side note, in case anyone is unsure about my level of Japanese, in a nutshell, I began with Pimsleurs and RTK, AJATT'd hard core for two years and burned out because of poor results, abandoned Japanese learning for ~two years, and recently came back to it all. This is why I still suck after seemingly studying Japanese for a while.

[ファブリス]

Technology has its ups and downs. There's a lot to be said about attention.

It is particularly interesting considering that a SRS program definitely checks some of the habit forming product checklist. I think the fact that a SRS program provides immediate feedback, as well as a sense of progress through it's statistics, is likely a significant part of the success of such tools.

ファブリス Wrote:Technology has its ups and downs. There's a lot to be said about attention.

It is particularly interesting considering that a SRS program definitely checks some of the habit forming product checklist. I think the fact that a SRS program provides immediate feedback, as well as a sense of progress through it's statistics, is likely a significant part of the success of such tools.

That's a pretty insightful video. Perhaps I should be focusing more on how to make my study embody more habit forming elements.

When I read listen to the BBC in the background I read it the same way as if I listen to say some sort of podcast featuring an insanely hot chick like Kate Micucci or Lauren Lapkus while surfing the net. I pick up almost nothing from the podcast.
Or watching TV while reading the paper, I might as well not even have the TV on.

I find it is pointless. I hardly take in any information and English is my only language.

Now, especially wrt podcasts, I don't even bother any more. I don't have the patience to sit through them no matter who it is and having it in the background does me no good.

Now if we are talking listening to the BBC while sitting in your comfy chair with a cup of tea and some buttered scones... whatever they are that is a different story all together.

ファブリス Wrote:Technology has its ups and downs. There's a lot to be said about attention.

It is particularly interesting considering that a SRS program definitely checks some of the habit forming product checklist. I think the fact that a SRS program provides immediate feedback, as well as a sense of progress through it's statistics, is likely a significant part of the success of such tools.

It hasn’t worked with me yet. I'd love to put in more hours into it. I wonder how many people out of all Anki users have had it develop into a habit that went out of control. Some sure, but not many. Exercise becomes a problem for some people also but it is still worth the risk.

However if you are going to be addicted to something, Anki and veggies are pretty good thinks to do. Well not carrots, they will turn your skin an odd colour.

Do you speak Japanese regularly? I mean to people not at your computer screen/iPhone/television. If native materials are too hard, but textbook material is definitely too easy, you are beyond ready to have real conversations. I did Pimsleur too, while it gets some very fair criticism, it is good preparation for actually speaking to people, ultimately that's what the program is built for no matter how much Simon and Schuster bill it as the key to proficiency. It just gets you speaking, so speak. Get a conversation partner and talk to them once a week. Better still, get seven conversation partners and speak Japanese every day.

JKS87 Wrote:Do you speak Japanese regularly? I mean to people not at your computer screen/iPhone/television. If native materials are too hard, but textbook material is definitely too easy, you are beyond ready to have real conversations. I did Pimsleur too, while it gets some very fair criticism, it is good preparation for actually speaking to people, ultimately that's what the program is built for no matter how much Simon and Schuster bill it as the key to proficiency. It just gets you speaking, so speak. Get a conversation partner and talk to them once a week. Better still, get seven conversation partners and speak Japanese every day.

Thanks for the suggestion, I like this idea. Actually using my Japanese face to face with a native speaker will probably help cement the Japanese I know as actual speech rather than sounds I recognize/memorized. (And plus the obvious benefit of having live feedback, and the fact I'd actually be putting my Japanese to good use.)

Though I should probably make clear that textbook style content isn't too easy for me. More specifically, it's just gotten to the point where all the low hanging fruit is gone, and more difficult content feels like it would be better suited to be learned in real situations.

[Zgarbas]

There are other SRS programs aside from Anki, you know. They're just not free . I always recommend iKnow, if you can afford it. And yes, I used both iKnow and Anki to learn things, not just practice them. There are also a lot of things you can use to artifically enhance your motivation by placing stakes on your language learning, such as signing up for the JLPT, joining online challenges, investing money to give you guilt-trips if you don't study, signing up for a class, what not. Though a boring study method can ward off motivation, a good study method won't build it from scratch.

I liked japonin for online lessons; I don't really see much value in informal conversation exercise, but that's just me.

[s0apgun]

ファブリス Wrote:A SRS is only one aspect of language learning. It's not even learning, imho. Just stimulating memory.

When I learned english I guess I was doing AEATT (All English All The Time). I put BBC Radio in the background all day.

I couldn't care less about Anki if I continued to learn Japanese seriously. I would just listen to Japanese all day (doesn't mean I support AJATT site, which I know barely anything about). It just makes sense to me. And i would frequently watch Japanese videos that I enjoy, especially ones that have subtitles. I would continue to play all those Japanese DS games I had on my Nintendo DS, etc.

QFT.

Anki is great tool to prime your brain to really learn those vocab words in the language. But ultimately, internalizing them and learning how to use them comes from reading and listening A LOT.

speaking for myself, I became fluent in japanese by becoming very literate first. after having a strong grasp on the written language, and reading a lot, I internalized the natural habits and forms that come with speech and everything else followed very naturally. this worked really well for me and I passed n1 in 3.5 years.

now that i'm doing chinese i'm trying to attack it the same way. one tool that I'm adding to my arsenal, which has a japanese version as well, is Skritter. after 30 minutes every day writing out words and phrases, I feel i have a much more solid understanding of the writing system and can read normal text faster. it uses on an srs also, which is nice. you might try looking into it...

Zgarbas Wrote:There are other SRS programs aside from Anki, you know. They're just not free . I always recommend iKnow, if you can afford it. And yes, I used both iKnow and Anki to learn things, not just practice them. There are also a lot of things you can use to artifically enhance your motivation by placing stakes on your language learning, such as signing up for the JLPT, joining online challenges, investing money to give you guilt-trips if you don't study, signing up for a class, what not. Though a boring study method can ward off motivation, a good study method won't build it from scratch.

I liked japonin for online lessons; I don't really see much value in informal conversation exercise, but that's just me.

As someone who has done most of their reviews on Surusu, I know there are more SRS programs

Artificially enhancing my motivation by placing stakes on my language learning is certainly an excellent idea. I'll need to give it some thought though, I want to make sure I'm not just turning Anki into a carrot and stick.

dtcamero Wrote:speaking for myself, I became fluent in japanese by becoming very literate first. after having a strong grasp on the written language, and reading a lot, I internalized the natural habits and forms that come with speech and everything else followed very naturally. this worked really well for me and I passed n1 in 3.5 years.

now that i'm doing chinese i'm trying to attack it the same way. one tool that I'm adding to my arsenal, which has a japanese version as well, is Skritter. after 30 minutes every day writing out words and phrases, I feel i have a much more solid understanding of the writing system and can read normal text faster. it uses on an srs also, which is nice. you might try looking into it...

I have a feeling I could similarly benefit from putting a bias on literacy. Having a strong grasp on patterns and being able to leverage subtitles would probably expedite the learning process.

JKS87 Wrote:Do you speak Japanese regularly? I mean to people not at your computer screen/iPhone

Online is actually a great way to make Japanese friends that you share common interests with. Especially if you don't live in Japan.

You can also probably talk to them more often than once a week.

cracky Wrote:Online is actually a great way to make Japanese friends that you share common interests with. Especially if you don't live in Japan.

You can also probably talk to them more often than once a week.

I know people do it, but considering the time zone difference [11 hours] and how hard I find it to find local yokels with common interests, I don't know how I'd do it.

I'm not sure what the community here thinks, but I've heard people actually enjoy using iknow.jp. It's still an SRS, but the presentation, goal setting and tracking I have heard many find appealing...I've actually thought about looking into it myself.

Schoolteachers want kids to read "at grade level" whatever that means. Maybe there's something to that.

Anyway, pick something that's your level:
http://japaneselevelup.com/difficulty-le...-japanese/
For 1-star, you might not understand 100%, but you are likely to understand what's going on.
I think some of the 1-star stuff is pretty difficult, and other 1-star stuff is quite easy. That guy isn't a very good judge of difficulty, huh.
Ask here your questions: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3249

"Your level" is most commonly suggested (and this guy recommends "your level" materials as well).