I keep hearing about nightclubs and red-light districts in Japan but I have some trouble understanding how they works. Are they fully legal? What kind of people works there? They are free individuals who decided to works there, or there are episodes of "slavery" with girls forced to work there? Is it like in some other nations where the nightclub is just a side of the business, and beyond this the girls prostituite themselves with clients? If this is the case, do they do it by themselves or there are people behind them which manage the thing and maybe force them to some extent? What sort of people manage those business? Mafia, yakuza or other criminal associations? Or is it all clean and legal as you see it? How much dangerous it is to work on those places?

Do you honestly not know what a nightclub is?

It has nothing to do with prostitution or "slaves". Nightclubs are mainstream and visited by all kinds of people. You're thinking of other places.

Night clubs are a weird thing. Depending on the jurisdiction they are legal up to about 12am and then its illegal if people are dancing. Night clubs are owned by a wide variety, some might be yakuza owned but there are a lot of private ones as well.

Red light businesses like soaplands or brothels are probably connected to the yakuza in some way. The workers make up all sorts from what I've heard. A lot of the girls are foreign; chinese, filipino, korean. I can't recall where the hell I ran across it but 4-5 years ago there is/was a forum on the web somewhere that dealt with info on red light establishments in countries across the world (primarily aimed at being informative and keeping people safe that want to visit these places). Some of the posts that I read mentioned that some of the girls at these places were there on their own will (ie: not human trafficing) and mainly doing it to earn money to go college or the like. Of course, this could be what the girls were suppose to say, but who knows.

Some of these red light establishments are legal as well. The experiences posted on that forum said that many of the places had a lot of rules, a big one being "no vaginal sex."

There is another kind of mainstream red light service in Japan as well, "delivery health" (デリヘル) which is basically a call girl. I'd imagine these are heavily yakuza based. They usually involve having a girl driven to a place by a driver and dropped off. The driver usually sits outside and waits for the girl. I've seen this first person as someone in at my last apartment has called on them before. I've also received adverts for the services in my mail as well. The adverts usually advertise massages and the like, but I think the "read between the lines" is that you can request other things once they are there. These girls seem to be Japanese from what I could tell from the girls coming and going from the apartment. Beyond that I couldn't say what their experience is. I'd imagine you'd have a hard time actually acquiring the services as foreigner. Many red light establishments tend to bar foreigners, either because they can't follow the rules or [fear they] don't understand the Japanese.

There are some call services that don't mask what they are though. There are a lot of these as well, usually discovered by searching the internet. I've ran across a few. Some/Many(?) pander towards fetishes.

Finally, there are variety 出会い (meetup) services. While not exactly red light, there are a lot of web sites that have cropped up that basically function something like call girls. I don't know if they function exactly like call girls; complete with a driver, but the end result tends to be the same.

vix86 Wrote:I'd imagine you'd have a hard time actually acquiring the services as foreigner. Many red light establishments tend to bar foreigners, either because they can't follow the rules or [fear they] don't understand the Japanese.

I have a few Japanese friends in this industry and they cleared up where the foreigner bans come from.

First, if its a place where the services take place in the building then they might bar foreigners just to avoid complaints from other customers. If the establishment specializes in foreign girls then they almost never ban foreigners. (Hard to make racist based complaints when you came for a foreign girl I guess?)

Second, many places let the girls choose who and what they will do. Obviously they are under a lot of pressure not to refuse customers, but they can be as picky as they want with non-Japanese.

Finally, most places will ban anyone who might cause a problem. Thus your Japanese level, general appearance and even race and nationality might get you rejected from any place. This particular category is not unique to the sex industry and can happen at sento and onsen as well.

vix86 Wrote:Finally, there are variety 出会い (meetup) services. While not exactly red light, there are a lot of web sites that have cropped up that basically function something like call girls. I don't know if they function exactly like call girls; complete with a driver, but the end result tends to be the same.

Deai cafes were common long before the internet and now there are deai bars and deai izakayas as well. They all work the same way: Girls get in free and guys pay an entry fee and/or a high hourly fee. They pick the girls they want to talk to, negotiate the terms of the date, and then if the girl agrees they leave together.

As a final note, these guys work in this industry every single day and both of them agreed that if you want some company it's best to do it the old fashion way and stay away from the sex service industry.

I'm not interested as a client lol
I asked because even if I'm straight I have this tendency to attract other men lol
So if I don't find other ways to live in Japan maybe I can do the drag-queen or similar things.
But I don't know if even so there are restrictions for foreigners, if some major is required or the 10 years experience rule...
I know that world is vast and it goes from fully legal to not so legal.
I obvously know what a nighclub is, maybe it was not the right word.
I remember a variety show where they went to a sort of nightclub and interviewed some female dressed males, and it seemed just an entertaining thing. I wonder if it's possible for a foreigner to work in those places.

cophnia61 Wrote:I remember a variety show where they went to a sort of nightclub and interviewed some female dressed males, and it seemed just an entertaining thing. I wonder if it's possible for a foreigner to work in those places.

Those might have been host/hostess clubs/bars.

It is important to remember that some of these Japanese establishments are dangerous, particularly for foreigners. Don't just go bumbling around.

The criminal elements are always looking for easy "worldly" prey. There are so many new iterations of the same scam waiting for a new gaijin sucker. These guys and girls are very slick and very well organized, so be careful. Never seen anything even approaching this level of sophistication in large cities like NY or London.

I know of several cases where friends were drugged and robbed. They were a mess until the next afternoon thanks to the spiked drinks. My friends said the police were not especially helpful.

What is certain, is that these brief experiences completely ruined Japan for them, and these friends promptly flew home, never to return.

Use some common sense and Japan's night life can be a lot of fun. I think nightlife in Europe is a lot more fun but that is subjective...

scooter1 Wrote:It is important to remember that some of these Japanese establishments are dangerous, particularly for foreigners. Don't just go bumbling around.

The criminal elements are always looking for easy "worldly" prey. There are so many new iterations of the same scam waiting for a new gaijin sucker. These guys and girls are very slick and very well organized, so be careful. Never seen anything even approaching this level of sophistication in large cities like NY or London.

I know of several cases where friends were drugged and robbed. They were a mess until the next afternoon thanks to the spiked drinks. My friends said the police were not especially helpful.

What is certain, is that these brief experiences completely ruined Japan for them, and these friends promptly flew home, never to return.

Use some common sense and Japan's night life can be a lot of fun. I think nightlife in Europe is a lot more fun but that is subjective...

Well, as I just said I'm not interested as a client, I would never go to a strip-club or similar places to find "entertainment" xD But I wonder if there are real possibilities to work in those places (the legal ones) as a feminine-looking male foreigner. Lol

[Zgarbas]

It depends on your visa, really, though Japan isn't as vigilant about it as you'd expect it to be. Foreigners get hired all the time; while the majority are from other Asian countries, Westerners occasionally get gigs. That being said, working at such a place means hanging about, having your social circle revolve around them, and a few other aspects which mean that you will end up spending a lot of time there; if you're not into these kinds of clubs to begin with, maybe you should look for something else? Are you a good dancer, at least? All okama bars are around the gay districts, so I would suggest going to one to check the atmosphere before seriously considering it as a lifestyle... also, crossdressing is actually quite a bit of effort and requires investing in clothes, makeup, and other things before you can make money out of it. Most crossdressing artists we have in my city are amateurs and do it for free, but Tokyo might be different.

cophnia61 Wrote:

scooter1 Wrote:It is important to remember that some of these Japanese establishments are dangerous, particularly for foreigners. Don't just go bumbling around.

The criminal elements are always looking for easy "worldly" prey. There are so many new iterations of the same scam waiting for a new gaijin sucker. These guys and girls are very slick and very well organized, so be careful. Never seen anything even approaching this level of sophistication in large cities like NY or London.

I know of several cases where friends were drugged and robbed. They were a mess until the next afternoon thanks to the spiked drinks. My friends said the police were not especially helpful.

What is certain, is that these brief experiences completely ruined Japan for them, and these friends promptly flew home, never to return.

Use some common sense and Japan's night life can be a lot of fun. I think nightlife in Europe is a lot more fun but that is subjective...

Well, as I just said I'm not interested as a client, I would never go to a strip-club or similar places to find "entertainment" xD But I wonder if there are real possibilities to work in those places (the legal ones) as a feminine-looking male foreigner. Lol

Nothing wrong with a strip-club or whatever. I personally don't seek it out, but when I went to Japan several years ago my doctor friend brought me to a strip-club and paid for everything. It's fun to experience something like that in a foreign country if nothing else. When I went back in April, that same friend brought me to some hostess clubs on 2 different occasions. It really is quite an experience that I enjoyed a lot. At one of the hostess clubs a Russian girl was working there which was weird. They initially brought her to me because they assumed she spoke English which was false.

But for anyone who is interested in such places I would say just have a Japanese friend who knows about them take you to their trusted places. That's the safest way to go about it.

Zgarbas Wrote:It depends on your visa, really, though Japan isn't as vigilant about it as you'd expect it to be. Foreigners get hired all the time; while the majority are from other Asian countries, Westerners occasionally get gigs. That being said, working at such a place means hanging about, having your social circle revolve around them, and a few other aspects which mean that you will end up spending a lot of time there; if you're not into these kinds of clubs to begin with, maybe you should look for something else? Are you a good dancer, at least? All okama bars are around the gay districts, so I would suggest going to one to check the atmosphere before seriously considering it as a lifestyle... also, crossdressing is actually quite a bit of effort and requires investing in clothes, makeup, and other things before you can make money out of it. Most crossdressing artists we have in my city are amateurs and do it for free, but Tokyo might be different.

Zgarbas, I appreciate very much your answer, very useful info there!
I'm aware of all those aspects and obviously it's not something I would do carelessly.
For now it's only a remote idea but I admit it's something I've thinked about from some time now...
When I was younger I did all sort of things to survive on the street and I hanged out with all sort of people, I even risked to be killed a couple of time lol but I understand that things like the yakuza are totally at another level of dangerousness and I don't want do deal with them...

I was thinking about frequenting some places where I can meet gay people, possibly old and rich people, interested in gayjin and then use those contacts to open my way to live in Japan. Things like "you can live at my house". But I know how much dangerous can be to rely on other people and to be debtor to them. Also considering this would be only a temporary measure and I know some people don't like when you decide to turn the page and change your lifestyle.

[Zgarbas]

Erm, *cough*, I think that once you go to 'you can live at my house' you will be expected to offer... additional services. A lot of the okamas and dancers are straight and do not engage in prostitution, but I think that the route you're talking about pretty much implies that. Perhaps you should look up bathhouses? There are also newspapers (and online) matrimonials that you can look up, if your Japanese is good enough.

Zgarbas Wrote:Erm, *cough*, I think that once you go to 'you can live at my house' you will be expected to offer... additional services.

Oh, so *that's* how couchsurfing works. Fluent in 3 months just got a lot dirtier.

Zgarbas Wrote:Erm, *cough*, I think that once you go to 'you can live at my house' you will be expected to offer... additional services. A lot of the okamas and dancers are straight and do not engage in prostitution, but I think that the route you're talking about pretty much implies that. Perhaps you should look up bathhouses? There are also newspapers (and online) matrimonials that you can look up, if your Japanese is good enough.

I'm aware of this, it was implicit lol
Your help is very valuable, I really appreciate it!

Anyway, I understand the topic is a little... so sorry if I brought it on the forum ._.

cophnia61 Wrote:I'm not interested as a client lol
I asked because even if I'm straight I have this tendency to attract other men lol
So if I don't find other ways to live in Japan maybe I can do the drag-queen or similar things.
But I don't know if even so there are restrictions for foreigners, if some major is required or the 10 years experience rule...
I know that world is vast and it goes from fully legal to not so legal.
I obvously know what a nighclub is, maybe it was not the right word.
I remember a variety show where they went to a sort of nightclub and interviewed some female dressed males, and it seemed just an entertaining thing. I wonder if it's possible for a foreigner to work in those places.

There are okama bars, where the entertainment (singing, performing, etc) is provided by men in drag and by transsexual women. I'd say it's unlikely you'd get a job at one unless your Japanese is very good and you look very good in drag--which, by the way, unless you already look like a pretty woman when you're not in drag isn't something you can just fake; it takes actual skill to do drag well, which takes practice, and requires an investment in clothes and makeup and wigs, none of which are cheap. Also, visa-wise I thought it was illegal for foreigners to work at bars.

James736 Wrote:

cophnia61 Wrote:I'm not interested as a client lol
I asked because even if I'm straight I have this tendency to attract other men lol
So if I don't find other ways to live in Japan maybe I can do the drag-queen or similar things.
But I don't know if even so there are restrictions for foreigners, if some major is required or the 10 years experience rule...
I know that world is vast and it goes from fully legal to not so legal.
I obvously know what a nighclub is, maybe it was not the right word.
I remember a variety show where they went to a sort of nightclub and interviewed some female dressed males, and it seemed just an entertaining thing. I wonder if it's possible for a foreigner to work in those places.

There are okama bars, where the entertainment (singing, performing, etc) is provided by men in drag and by transsexual women. I'd say it's unlikely you'd get a job at one unless your Japanese is very good and you look very good in drag--which, by the way, unless you already look like a pretty woman when you're not in drag isn't something you can just fake; it takes actual skill to do drag well, which takes practice, and requires an investment in clothes and makeup and wigs, none of which are cheap. Also, visa-wise I thought it was illegal for foreigners to work at bars.

Well said James736, good points!

I think I look very feminine in a sense, but just like an emo or a gothic boy, not really like a girl. Because of that I was thinking more about the gay thing in a "private" environment, than as a drag-queen in a club. I also look way younger than I am but considering japanese people this is not something exceptional lol

I'm still confused about how the visa works... I wonder if it is legal to live in Japan as a tourist as long as one want, if he has money for it, even without any working or student visa.

Ah, btw, thank you all for the open-mind

cophnia61 Wrote:I think I look very feminine in a sense, but just like an emo or a gothic boy, not really like a girl. Because of that I was thinking more about the gay thing in a "private" environment, than as a drag-queen in a club. I also look way younger than I am but considering japanese people this is not something exceptional lol

I'm still confused about how the visa works... I wonder if it is legal to live in Japan as a tourist as long as one want, if he has money for it, even without any working or student visa.

Ah, btw, thank you all for the open-mind

I don't know what you mean by a "'private' environment." If you're talking about sex work that's a whole different thing with a whole lot of other considerations, for example, while male-male prostitution is in a slightly grey area when it comes to the law, as a foreigner you're probably likely to be deported if you're caught. Also, if you're thinking of just hanging out your shingle, as it were, then your Japanese had better be very good, and otherwise I don't really know what you mean by "private." Also, if your thought is to have male clients, then it's not imperative to do drag, right?

As for visa issues, no, you can't really stay in a country forever on a tourist visa. If you can show that you have basically unlimited funds, then you probably won't get as much hassle, but if you're just going overseas every few months for a couple of days and then returning eventually you're going to start getting questions.

Basically, if your plan is to stay in Japan by doing something that's illegal or in a legal grey area, then that's not really much of a plan.

What an odd thread.

James736 Wrote:

cophnia61 Wrote:I think I look very feminine in a sense, but just like an emo or a gothic boy, not really like a girl. Because of that I was thinking more about the gay thing in a "private" environment, than as a drag-queen in a club. I also look way younger than I am but considering japanese people this is not something exceptional lol

I'm still confused about how the visa works... I wonder if it is legal to live in Japan as a tourist as long as one want, if he has money for it, even without any working or student visa.

Ah, btw, thank you all for the open-mind

I don't know what you mean by a "'private' environment." If you're talking about sex work that's a whole different thing with a whole lot of other considerations, for example, while male-male prostitution is in a slightly grey area when it comes to the law, as a foreigner you're probably likely to be deported if you're caught. Also, if you're thinking of just hanging out your shingle, as it were, then your Japanese had better be very good, and otherwise I don't really know what you mean by "private." Also, if your thought is to have male clients, then it's not imperative to do drag, right?

As for visa issues, no, you can't really stay in a country forever on a tourist visa. If you can show that you have basically unlimited funds, then you probably won't get as much hassle, but if you're just going overseas every few months for a couple of days and then returning eventually you're going to start getting questions.

Basically, if your plan is to stay in Japan by doing something that's illegal or in a legal grey area, then that's not really much of a plan.

Wakatta Well, it was just an idea so... I'm not even planning to go to Japan anytime soon, so I'll see when and if the time will come xD

Thank you all for your help

IIRC student visas prohibit morally questionable work and again from what I remember they are pretty wide ranging on what they consider questionable.
I doubt you will get a work visa for such work.
Without a visible means of support, constant re entry is gonna lead to trouble for sure.

A question here though.

If lets say some mostly harmless Canadian guy wins one of those big Canadian lottos,, 40 to 60 million in Canadian Tissue Paper, and say said mostly harmless Canadian guy is moving along nicely in his self study of Japanese and would like to move over there potentially for multiple years without a student or work visa or by getting married, is it possible. Can one hook up a long term visa if you have mad bank means of support. Will they accept you leaving and coming back every 90 days without a visa [Canada we can go for 90 days without visa IIRC] or longer periods with or will they eventually say "you are not a tourist, make like a tree and get out of here"

[Zgarbas]

You have to leave the country every 90 days and are only allowed to stay in Japan 6 months a year; it's difficult. There are a few long-term visas available but for the most part unless you have a japanese kid or a really nice long-term job there can be problems.

It's illegal to work vice-related jobs as q foreigner, but unless you're unlucky enough to be caught during a raid then no one really cares.

Zgarbas Wrote:You have to leave the country every 90 days and are only allowed to stay in Japan 6 months a year; it's difficult. There are a few long-term visas available but for the most part unless you have a japanese kid or a really nice long-term job there can be problems.

This is not really how it works in real life. They randomly deny entry if they suspect the person is working or going to be working, unless they have the specific visa attached to their job (or a working holiday visa)

Visas are separate from entry permission for another thing.

You can get a five year multiple entry permit visa, and get denied entry on your first attempt (conceiviably, but no one who has ever bothered to get a 5 year visa has ever been denied entry permission that I know.) But almost no one gets the that sort of visa visa because it is essentially nothing but an expense and a hassle. I got one, and the lady at the consulate was kind of confused as to why I wanted it, because of the above reasons. The five year visa just allows the same entry permissions (90 day tourist entry permit) as just showing up at Japanese customs and immigrations with a valid US passport, a return ticket, and an address you are staying at.

Thus American spouses of Japanese nationals married in foreign countries can come and go pretty much freely as long as they do not overstay each 90 period and promise they are not working in Japan. This can go on pretty much indefinitely. I was in the Japan for all but a few days most of a year for instance. Others ahve done the same over longer periods. I bought all my tickets as round-trips in Japan, to which meant I entered the country each time each with no return ticket) and the way marriage visas work in Japan (or more importantly don't really exist as such) this is not so uncommon.

But visitors from certain countries will get stopped and held or sent back unless they can show hotel reservations and specific return dates on short term non refundable airline ticket, and sometimes even then.

Travel tip. Go to SE Asia after Japan. Every time I have had a recent PI stamp in my passport, I get all my luggage searched. Apparently it is the same for Vietnam, and Thailand. Those are the countries whose nationals often get denied entry randomly, from general discussions. Friends traveling with PI wives said that they just stopped trying to travel to Japan with them.

Also regarding other topics in this thread

水商売, and 風俗 are not the same thing. I know but a few Japanese woman who have not worked 水商売 at some point in their lives. Basically everyone I know well enough to talk about this sort of thing with, has. So it's like 100% IME.

I only know a couple who ever worked 風俗.

But the 援助交際 thing sometimes makes that second claim harder to make.

And the 出会い, (or as they used to be called テレクラ) well that also wanders into 風俗, but with more of a 援助交際 air to it.

(Also the red light districts are easy enough to find if you just read the tissue packs.)