Quite often, I realize I suck. I suck at drawing, writing, life in general, etc. I also suck at language acquisition.

Most people here don't seem to suck. Quite the opposite, most of you seem to do what the masses can't. So do you think you have a naturally higher than average ability to acquire language, or are you average and created a really good system for language learning, or do you suck like me but you've been at it for so long that you have gained tangible results?

I would say that I suck. I was hopeless at using regular methods of learning, which is why I worked out methods that work for me (and happily work for some other people too).

However, I have no real talent for language. I have very poor short-term memory, I am not good at listening comprehension even in English, I am a painfully slow reader, again even in English. I find memorizing words very hard. Actually kanji do help here but I am not that great at learning kanji either.

Even in English I get lost in grown-up conversations. I can't follow street directions and such in English (so I really couldn't follow elementary Japanese courses that focus on "simple" practicalities). I get lost in adult dramas (in English). I can't understand the people's motivations or what they are blathering about (and why are they always so grumpy?)

I have tangible results in Japanese just by keeping at it and by using methods that work for me and reading/watching the kinds of thing I could understand in English.

But I think I am singularly untalented in most departments of language learning. In the end the "secret" (insofar as there is a secret) is love. I love Japanese with all my heart, so even though I am slow and poorly suited to language learning, I embrace it because I love it. Even the least able child learns her own language, and in my heart of hearts, Japanese is my own language.

I can still remember picking up a Japanese book (OUT - Natsuo Kirino) the day I started studying Japanese seriously, it was November 18th 2011, and I remember it well because it was exactly a week after Skyrim came out. I put in over 80 hours between November 11th - 18th finishing that game, knowing that when I was done I was jumping right into Japanese. I remember not being able to read any words that required me to know kanji, it was all just completely incomprehensible.

That was almost 4 years ago, and that book went from being incomprehensible to a relatively easy read, and to where now it's only very old literature that poses me much trouble. I don't think I've made quite as much progress in terms of quickly understanding everything I hear, though things like the audio sections of the N1 test do seem quite simple to me. I'm not sure if I have a higher standard for myself when it comes to listening or if that's just a low bar.

I think my progress has been pretty average when considering the amount of time I've put in, though maybe I have an above-average ability to endure some of the more tedious aspects of language acquisition. I never get bored with studying Japanese, whereas I'm very prone to boredom and procrastination with other subjects.

I suppose something particular to Japanese where I'm above average would be writing. I'm about as proficient as a Japanese adult, likely even more proficient in terms of being able to recall words containing obscure kanji that a lot of Japanese never bother learning to write from memory.

I can't say that I am, no, because I have no idea where the average is. And I don't think you do, either. So how do you know you "suck"?

The only thing I know for sure is that almost everyone can learn any foreign language. Ability is less important than motivation/interest.

I am average using an above average method.

kameden Wrote:I am average using an above average method.

This.

I don't believe in talent, or if it does exist, it seems like it would be much rarer than a lot of people think. It's often used as an excuse, so I get a little annoyed when people call me "talented" at Japanese. From what I've seen, using a method which works for you, having a strong motivation (even if it's just "I want to be able to read & watch these things in Japanese so badly!"), and persevering will take anyone far.

I had enough trouble learning to speak english, my first language. Took to reading like a duck to water but wrt speaking, I ended up spending the first half of grade 1 in special ed and sadly probably would have stayed there if my parents didn't fight the system. Considering all the post secondary I did and easily I might add..

Couldn't pick up french in school at all, failed every second year when they would stick us with a teacher who couldn't speak English.

So I am not an Above Average Language Learner. I have talents elsewhere.


OTOH especially with a language as hard as Japanese, I am guessing most real hard learners would give up pretty quick, outside of Japan there isn't much use for it and if your talents are limited why smash your head for one of the hardest languages out there.

As for ability, I am guessing like most things, it is a bell curve. You got some people who will struggle and get nowhere with the best methods and people who can't help but to pick up languages.

Things go better with more effort of course but the pay off for the outliers at the less ability stage will be minimal to none.

Much like with exercise. There are some people who get bigger, stronger or faster just looking at a barbell or a running track and there are people who try everything and anything short of roids and are what they call non responders.

However most people are somewhere in the middle where some effort will get you there.

Thing about language vs weights is you don't have steroid freaks telling you how easy it is to be 6'2 and 250 lean and lying about how they did it natty. Instead you have people lying about how they got fluent in a language in 3 months by neglecting to tell you about the years in collage before hand studying the language or twisting the term fluent to the point of meaningless.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't hit the gym/books/conversation, just be realistic about it and don't worry how well other people are doing as long as you are making progress you are happy with and find it rewarding in some way or another.

And if the progress of others are getting you down and you think of quitting...
This guy.

34 second of pure Japanese motivation. Ok 30 seconds of pure Japanese motivation and about 4 seconds of English in a Japanese accent.

Dudeist Wrote:...just be realistic about it and don't worry how well other people are doing as long as you are making progress you are happy with and find it rewarding in some way or another.

Sansei. I learn Japanese the way I do not because I think it is the fastest way (no idea), but because it is the way that, for me, makes every stage of the journey interesting and valuable.

If you spend all your time looking at your watch wondering when you will be "fluent" or whatever, or comparing your progress to the claims of other people, I feel it may get a little depressing. It would for me anyway.

And if you don't enjoy the scenery along the journey, it is very possible you won't enjoy the "goal" much when you get there either. Assuming there is ever a point when you feel you are "there".

To me, it isn't a race, it is the journey of a lifetime. It isn't the "goal" that matters so much as the Way.

When will I have finished learning Japanese? Maybe never. I am not sure I've finished learning English. When will I know enough to use and enjoy Japanese? That was a long time ago, before I was finished with basic grammar, and it just gets better with every level-up.

I don't think my language learning ability differs much from most people. The difference lies in HOW I learn and how MUCH I do it. The average learner probably spends hours weekly learning a language. I've spent hours daily most of the time. Also, I imagine the average learner probably doesn't do a deep dive into learning. With which I mean they might settle for a rather shallow understanding (i.e. settling for 言葉 = word, will not give you the whole picture). Also, lots of people get bored studying a language. For me it has been the other way around, studying Japanese was what I did when I was bored. And last but not least, using SRS-methods etc for a maximum retention rate.

While in some way, these things might make me an above average learner, I wouldn't say it is because of some innate ability of mine, but rather because of the way I use time and resources.

I always feel kind of awkward when people say I'm talented at learning languages. They have no idea about the time and effort I've spent.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I can't say that I am, no, because I have no idea where the average is. And I don't think you do, either.

That's true. If I were to articulate my question more thoughtfully, I would have asked, "Based on other people's accounts on language acquisition, do you find you've had an easier time than them, more difficult, or about the same?"

As Dudeist mentioned, people often don't tell the whole story of their language journey. But for the sake of light hearted conversation, using other people's accounts should be an adequate yardstick.

Stansfield123 Wrote:So how do you know you "suck"?

Here's how I know: I really want to understand Japanese, but 50% of the time I'm mailing in my studying, 25% of the time I can barely summon the willpower to not regress, and only 25% of the time I make actual progress. That's how I know I suck.

I am simply bullheaded. I refuse to quit, and force myself to study when I would much rather be doing other things. There is no talent, just spending the time. And if there is anything that makes me above average, it's that I actually spend a good amount of time on a near daily basis ass in the chair studying using an efficient method with additional daily exposure to the language, where as a majority of language learners tend to spend a small amount of time using highly inefficient methods while complaining how difficult it is.

I don't think I'm particularly good at Japanese.
I won't claim that I learn at slow or average speed, but I'm certainly not a genius (I was almost always the second or third best in my classes; rarely the best).

I've been spending at least five years on Japanese, judging by my join date on Koohii (not all of it was at the optimal speed, but I'm not one of those people that thinks that time spent poorly doesn't count as time spent). My first attempt at the N1 will be this December, and I still haven't managed to pass a practice test at that level. Considering some of the claims I've seen on here, this is hardly 'fast'. It's faster than the people taking classes at college, but probably about average for self-study.

Of course, once you have a method figured out, and goals set, it's just a matter of 'time in -> ability out'. I didn't sit on my thumbs, but I wasn't racing either; even though Japanese has become more than a hobby for me, I just can't enjoy myself if I'm rushing.

[Zgarbas]

I wouldn't say that I am above average at anything, really. If anything, I am below average at most things I've tried. I'm not the most hard-working person, either, and have zero creativity, which doesn't help. The only reason I succeeded with Japanese was because it was something that I needed, and I had a lot of time to work on it. It's easier to keep to something when the stakes are high.

Part of me believes that language learning is a binary talent. You are either around average at acquiring a new language (ignoring learning disabilities, etc) or you are exceptional because you have a knack/talent for it. I think most people are average (read: normal), I'm average. Everyone can do it, the reason why some seem to be better or do it better is probably because of other factors such as more [free] time or better work ethic.

CreepyAF Wrote:Here's how I know: I really want to understand Japanese, but 50% of the time I'm mailing in my studying, 25% of the time I can barely summon the willpower to not regress, and only 25% of the time I make actual progress. That's how I know I suck.

[Captain Obvious]
Sounds like the issue isn't language talent but motivation. [/Captain Obvious]

Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is a perfectly legitimate lifestyle path.

sholum Wrote:I don't think I'm particularly good at Japanese.
I won't claim that I learn at slow or average speed, but I'm certainly not a genius (I was almost always the second or third best in my classes; rarely the best).

I've been spending at least five years on Japanese, judging by my join date on Koohii (not all of it was at the optimal speed, but I'm not one of those people that thinks that time spent poorly doesn't count as time spent). My first attempt at the N1 will be this December, and I still haven't managed to pass a practice test at that level. Considering some of the claims I've seen on here, this is hardly 'fast'. It's faster than the people taking classes at college, but probably about average for self-study.

Being second or third in your class assuming 20 or 30 students and everyone doing roughly equivalent effort is pretty damned gifted. The effort assumption wouldn't apply in most real world situations though.

As for 5 years. It's hours not years that count. Someone who nailed N1 by putting in 10 hours a week for 5 years is more impressive [2500] hours than someone who spends 10 hours a day for a year to do it 3650 hours.
At least in talent. One would have to admire someone who could hammer away at a language for 70 hours a week, but if 10 hour a week guy is working 60 hours a week and has a family and 2 kids then he gets the nod up.

Everything is relative... like in a Newfoundland wedding.

Frig it. As was said on another thread. Serenity Now!

Bokusenou Wrote:

kameden Wrote:I am average using an above average method.

This.

I don't believe in talent, or if it does exist, it seems like it would be much rarer than a lot of people think. It's often used as an excuse, so I get a little annoyed when people call me "talented" at Japanese. From what I've seen, using a method which works for you, having a strong motivation (even if it's just "I want to be able to read & watch these things in Japanese so badly!"), and persevering will take anyone far.

I believe in this as well. The biggest factors of success in anything really tend to be 1) environment and 2) methods. Motivation sort of works with these as a multiplier.

Systems are important. Very important. Nothing that already hasn't been said before of course (ahem: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...t-you-free, http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...-blindness).



Lately I've been watching a few documentaries about Tesla motors and the production lines for creating their Model S car. It's incredible to see what can be achieved now with modern technology. Behind all of this are systems. Countless systems on top of systems, integrated into this massive whole which simply dwarfs the ability of the human mind to take it all in at once. There are so many countless little things that have come together in order to allow these cars to roll off the production line, and whoever is in charge cannot be constantly thinking about them, worrying about them. Of course there is maintenance. There are checks. But at no point are you "making a car" like a person may make a pot. Everything is sliced down and managed in little manageable pieces.

We are only able to keep in mind so much at once. Only able to give something so much attention or concern in our day. So too with very large long term goals. To me, the trick seems to be to know how to get things rolling, to establish those daily habits of doing lots of little manageable things practically automatically, and then forgetting about it. That's why I am still an Anki fan after all these years. Day after day after day I do my reps, add a few cards, and forget about it. Then a year goes by and my Chinese is a little better. My level of effort is so low that I'm really taking my sweet time about it, but it is so consistent that I never have any of that progress angst that I had with Japanese.

I think mostly it's just about how many hours you force yourself to put in. Of people I've met in similar situations in Japan (English teachers, graduate students), I think I'm above average at forcing myself to put in hours. A lot of people are always saying that they should study more, but never really do.

Then again, I basically have stopped studying Japanese. I read things sometimes, and I'm taking a class where I need to make presentations in Japanese every week, but most of my 'studying' is just exposure through my friends and life in Japan. Now my exposure is way down since I'm at graduate school at a program taught in English. I am considering taking a class in Japanese meant for Japanese graduate students next semester, however. Seem awfully difficult though so I might end up backing down.

Strangely, I think the two things in life I proved to be talented at are dancing and photography. Photography I've embraced as a real hobby and part-time job... dancing I just do every once in a while. The thing I suck at most is probably guitar. Many thousands of hours; still suck.

Tzadeck Wrote:I think mostly it's just about how many hours you force yourself to put in.

I'd agree with that. I spent a lot of time on methods, systems, but only learned 2k vocab my first year instead of the targeted 10k, and didn't achieve much in the second, since RTK took me forever and really drained my motivation.

I've scored above average on pretty much any aptitude test I've ever taken, but I've seen several "average" learners advance significantly faster just by dedicating more discipline to their study and developing stronger habits.

CreepyAF Wrote:Here's how I know: I really want to understand Japanese, but 50% of the time I'm mailing in my studying, 25% of the time I can barely summon the willpower to not regress, and only 25% of the time I make actual progress. That's how I know I suck.

So you don't really suck at learning languages, you just suck at motivation. Most people suck at that, and most people who claim to do a lot are usually just extrapolating off of their best days. For example: "The other day I read for 6 hours" suddenly becomes "I read 6 hours a day".

Dudeist Wrote:[Captain Obvious]
Sounds like the issue isn't language talent but motivation. [/Captain Obvious]

kameden Wrote:So you don't really suck at learning languages, you just suck at motivation. Most people suck at that, and most people who claim to do a lot are usually just extrapolating off of their best days. For example: "The other day I read for 6 hours" suddenly becomes "I read 6 hours a day".

Now that you guys have mentioned it, it does seem like motivation is my issue. It's odd that it never occurred to me, I guess sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees (I just assumed I was lazyAF).

Time to ponder why I suck at motivation. Hmm...

Tzadeck Wrote:I am considering taking a class in Japanese meant for Japanese graduate students next semester, however. Seem awfully difficult though so I might end up backing down.

.

Do you have the choice to audit the course. Either for free or for a reduced fee they will often let you sit in on a class, you can do the assignments. Only difference is no credit but if you are in it for the Japanese exposure and don't want to screw over your other coursework, would seem to be the way to go.

CreepyAF Wrote:or do you suck like me but you've been at it for so long that you have gained tangible results?

Yep. This one. I think most people are pretty equal at language learning however. Sure, some people are better at cramming for tests but it means NOTHING unless you can retain it over a really long time. Therefore people like you and me are the only ones who ever get anywhere with this stuff.

That being said, although I'm critical of myself and have low self esteem for language learning, I'm way better at finding resources and stuff for learning than any of the students in my classes. People in this site are a bit different, they're often -very- computer savvy and savvy in general about studying but your average joe is pretty darn hopeless from what I've seen. Nothing like the people on this forum.

I'm an absolutely -terrible- language learner, mostly because I have a terrible memory. I managed to fail a first semester course in Spanish once, supposedly an 'easy' language. (Knowing more about language learning now I have my doubts that languages differ that much in 'ease' unless they are very closely related to one's native language.)

Nice thing I've found out about that though is, memory exercises improve your ability to use your memory... so the more I've used SRS tools the stronger my ability to recall facts becomes. My ability to retain facts or lists or the like is still pretty bad, but definitely better than it used to be, and of course my ability to retain vocabulary too.

Any-way, I more or less persisted for for years. I did have about a 2 year lapse and several other months long lapses in my studies, which set me back pretty far each time (especially the 2-year lapse! I was shocked one day when I couldn't read some kana, and that motivated me to resume my learning. I kind of had to re-learn everything but not entirely... most of it came back pretty swiftly.)

Anyway, simply by keeping at it I've managed to reach the point where I can watch a lot of shows with 'everyday' vocabulary with full understanding (the more technical, philosophical, or political a show gets the more it gets into vocabulary I either don't know or only know to read not to hear). I can read just about any fiction now - manga or prose - with just a little help from the dictionary. I passed the JLPT N1 test almost a year ago now.

As far as motivation issues go, I've had experience with 2 different kinds of motivation problems - the first being that just studying get just get so tedious. It stops being fun. Solution to this, for me, was to engage with native material (particularly an old CLAMP manga called Magical Knight Rayearth, but that's another story). The passages I found that gave me trouble then motivated me to want to study more, and going back to studying suddenly wasn't 'tedious' because it was searching out the key to understanding. When fed up with studying again, back to native material.

The other motivation issue I've had trouble with is simply ... fear of failure. If I do my flashcards I might get them -all wrong-. If I attempt these chapter exercises in my book I might get them -all wrong-! Of course I wanted to learn, so I would get to it -eventually-, but it did feed into a lot of procrastination where I did things that weren't actually useful ... too much time reading and writing in English on sites like this one included, although a -certain- amount of that is useful for motivation and picking up new learning methods. Once you get into the off-topic conversations, accounts of 'what I did when I was in Japan', debates about various Japanese laws or how they treat foreigners, pictures of signs with bad English translations, etc, etc... you should start to consider that you may be procrastinating and not actually learning about learning anymore.
I still don't have a good solution to this problem. I stopped procrastinating about Japanese because I stopped being afraid of failing once I could easily read easier manga. I was confident at that point that continuing on would make more challenging manga, novels, etc., -also- easy to read. With confidence, I had no need to procrastinate.

Unfortunately, I still procrastinate in other areas of my life where I have less confidence, so, ehhh. All I can say there is that you -should- have confidence, if you keep at it, understanding will come, as long as you have a good mix of native materials and study materials that you work with. By -not- procrastinating it will come faster.