Hey everyone,

So, I saw a post that gave out some advice after the OP made some realizations, one of the tips was learning vocabulary in context, through sentences. The way I've been going about my studies is adding vocab to a vocab deck in anki and studying from that. After getting a little more used to the vocab I'll start studying sentences using the vocab in my sentences deck.

It seems many people think using a vocab deck is a waste of time. But I'm worried just doing sentences when you have low vocab knowledge will be really draining/boring, for example if you have to learn new vocab and the meaning of the sentence at the same time. Or the possibility of having multiple unknown vocab words in the same sentence. Although I guess that can just be solved by adding your sentences carefully. haha

Anyway, my vocab deck has about mature 700 words and 483 words that are young. I was going really slow at my language learning for a while and just recently really started burning through studying. My sentence deck is rather small, so I won't post it's stats. haha

Anyways, I was wondering if I should just kind of start navigating away from my vocab deck and focus on sentences? Continue doing both and just focus more on sentences? What's everyone's take?

I can hold basic conversations now and understand the basic context of conversations around me, but details still elude me. I want to improve my study method and just thought maybe the separate vocab deck was a waste of time.

Thanks!

I find sentences to be better when your level is lower, and simple vocabulary card to be better when your base is higher. I personally made the switch from sentences to pure vocabulary cards at around 8000 known words, and passive understand of most of the up to and including N1 grammar. Granted, all of the words that have added post switch are all words I've encountered in the wild so to speak.

RandomQuotes Wrote:I find sentences to be better when your level is lower, and simple vocabulary card to be better when your base is higher. I personally made the switch from sentences to pure vocabulary cards at around 8000 known words, and passive understand of most of the up to and including N1 grammar. Granted, all of the words that have added post switch are all words I've encountered in the wild so to speak.

I see, maybe I'll try that. I guess that would make sense since by then I imagine you'd have a pretty firm grasp of grammar.

But how do you keep an approximate count of known words?
I can tell now because I have a dedicated vocab deck so I just have to look at the card count. But for sentences, 1 sentence doesn't necessarily = 1 vocab.

Thanks!

Wovaki Wrote:

RandomQuotes Wrote:I find sentences to be better when your level is lower, and simple vocabulary card to be better when your base is higher. I personally made the switch from sentences to pure vocabulary cards at around 8000 known words, and passive understand of most of the up to and including N1 grammar. Granted, all of the words that have added post switch are all words I've encountered in the wild so to speak.

I see, maybe I'll try that. I guess that would make sense since by then I imagine you'd have a pretty firm grasp of grammar.

But how do you keep an approximate count of known words?
I can tell now because I have a dedicated vocab deck so I just have to look at the card count. But for sentences, 1 sentence doesn't necessarily = 1 vocab.

Thanks!

You want to be doing i+1 when you do sentences too, so your sentence cards should have one unknown. The idea behind them is that you're also reinforcing the natural context in how the word is used as well as grammar with your SRS. Which means you won't make a "gaijin mistake" by using words you learn incorrectly.

Wovaki Wrote:But how do you keep an approximate count of known words?
I can tell now because I have a dedicated vocab deck so I just have to look at the card count. But for sentences, 1 sentence doesn't necessarily = 1 vocab.

Thanks!

I use the Anki plugin Mophman, and go with the approximate known morphemes, which the plugin tracks. In addition, it also organizes the sentences in close to the i+1 manner, which ryudou mentioned above.

Sentences take to much time to review. I tried it once and just got really bored. Vocab cards are fine, trying to memorize usage and nuance stuff in Anki is a waste of time. Just memorize the base meaning and move on, then read a bunch and the rest will come.

I never used sentences in the regular way because I am a dumb doll and I never really understood how to do it. I did and somewhat still do use my own audio method - which, incidentally, is for me an answer to the problem of sentences taking too much time because it requires so little visual interaction that I can do it while walking or cooking (using wireless headset or mobile device).

However, I also agree that sentences get less useful as you advance, and I am now concentrating on wide reading/media consumption and mostly just using a vocabulary deck.

Having said that almost everything I used was "from the wild" from nearly the beginning, since I used the "[url=http://learnjapaneseonline.info/2015/06/04/learn-japanese-online/"]Dolly method[/url]". I was never learning vocabulary outside the context of having first encountered it in actual use.

What I am finding now is that Anki is playing a less and less central role in the whole process altogether. I have never used Anki for everything (so I can't say "how many words I know"). Currently I think I am probably entering around 30% of new words into a vocab deck and relying on massive input to reinforce the rest.

I would never argue against Anki as I think it is an absolutely wonderful tool, but it can also turn into a bit of a security blanket I think.

Tried both, and short sentences or sentence fragments kept my interest, while I got bored with only vocabulary cards. Sentences also reinforce context. I've done just sentences for a while now, and I've passed JLPT N1, as well as being able to read Japanese novels. So my advice is to try both and see what works for you. Of course, any Anki card reviewing time should be balanced with plenty of exposure to authentic Japanese material.

I use vocab cards with sentences underneath them. That way, I had the context when I was learning from a word list (I used Core10k, I think this is the default on that Anki deck), but can easily get through reviews, since the focus is on one word, rather than the whole sentence.

I look over the sentence(s) if I get a card wrong as well, because it's more important to know what the word means rather than memorizing its translation (which can be ambiguous).

kameden Wrote:Sentences take to much time to review. I tried it once and just got really bored. Vocab cards are fine, trying to memorize usage and nuance stuff in Anki is a waste of time.

No it's not. Plenty of people have used them and achieved proficiency much faster than you.

ryuudou Wrote:

kameden Wrote:Sentences take to much time to review. I tried it once and just got really bored. Vocab cards are fine, trying to memorize usage and nuance stuff in Anki is a waste of time.

No it's not. Plenty of people have used them and achieved proficiency much faster than you.

But if someone finds the approach boring and has no sense of progress it may well be a sign that the method is not the right one for that person. People do not all learn in the same way.

It may well be best to get context and nuance from a lot of real media exposure and just use Anki for reinforcing the vocabulary gleaned from that same exposure.

ryuudou Wrote:

kameden Wrote:Sentences take to much time to review. I tried it once and just got really bored. Vocab cards are fine, trying to memorize usage and nuance stuff in Anki is a waste of time.

No it's not. Plenty of people have used them and achieved proficiency much faster than you.

I was just giving my opinion calm down. There's lots of people who have not used sentences and achieved proficiency much faster than you.

Belittlement fight, gogogo!

What I'm doing is something I read on this blog after a user posted it on another thread.

This way you can focus on the sentence while you study, but just glance at it and focus mostly on the word itself, when you review the card.

On the back of the card I have the definition with other example sentences so I can focus on them too while I study.

I put directly the original sentence where I find the word, for example:

ベータ上がりの奴らがそいつらに土下座さして (SAO)

what bore me the most is to go to all those sterile sentences to find one, and most of the time the original sentences is ok for me. If it's not enough I copy-paste some other sentences from the definition to the front of the card, again, just to glance at them:

行列を作った彼らのお目当てはソードアート·オンライン

- 彼はただ北極星を目当てとして進んだ.

This pushes me to use native media and to go through them outside of Anki, so even if I don't overanalyze the sentence during review, the same sentence is there on the native media from which I learned the word and from which I took the sentence.

This is basically what CureDolly suggests on her blog, to mine words from anime (and other sources). I just take the entire sentence, and put it with a context big enough to make the word meaning unambiguous.

For example:

ベータ上がりどもはこんクソゲームが始まったその日にビギナーを見捨てて消えよった

for this word I put a long sentence because it's needed to understand what the word 見捨てる means. I prefer this way than a short dictionary sentence which is a pain in the a** to read because it's too boring to me. Time is relatively perceived, so I prefer to spend more time on a sentence like this than the time to find one from a dictionary and then review it. But it differs from person to person

I just use production cards with the word I'm focusing on cloze deleted out. I use images from native material for the sentences. I'm pretty happy with it. I get the passive exposure from reading the sentences and the picture and active recall required for production help cement the word in my mind.

I guess I'd call it a vocab deck but I think the sentence part is still important.
Example front:
http://i.imgur.com/NvonLj6.jpg
Example back:
http://i.imgur.com/zQyK3Tw.jpg

kameden Wrote:

ryuudou Wrote:

kameden Wrote:Sentences take to much time to review. I tried it once and just got really bored. Vocab cards are fine, trying to memorize usage and nuance stuff in Anki is a waste of time.

No it's not. Plenty of people have used them and achieved proficiency much faster than you.

I was just giving my opinion calm down. There's lots of people who have not used sentences and achieved proficiency much faster than you.

Then your point is mute if it "goes both ways". I also highly doubt that.

cracky Wrote:I just use production cards with the word I'm focusing on cloze deleted out. I use images from native material for the sentences. I'm pretty happy with it. I get the passive exposure from reading the sentences and the picture and active recall required for production help cement the word in my mind.

I guess I'd call it a vocab deck but I think the sentence part is still important.
Example front:
http://i.imgur.com/NvonLj6.jpg
Example back:
http://i.imgur.com/zQyK3Tw.jpg

How much of the sentence do you read? Or if the word come to you before even trying to read the sentence, as I think it happens in this example, do you still read it?

cophnia61 Wrote:

cracky Wrote:I just use production cards with the word I'm focusing on cloze deleted out. I use images from native material for the sentences. I'm pretty happy with it. I get the passive exposure from reading the sentences and the picture and active recall required for production help cement the word in my mind.

I guess I'd call it a vocab deck but I think the sentence part is still important.
Example front:
http://i.imgur.com/NvonLj6.jpg
Example back:
http://i.imgur.com/zQyK3Tw.jpg

How much of the sentence do you read? Or if the word come to you before even trying to read the sentence, as I think it happens in this example, do you still read it?

This can be a good reason for using audio sentences, since if you hear the sentence, even if you are "skipping" it, it passes quickly through your consciousness and reinforces your memory.

cophnia61 Wrote:

cracky Wrote:I just use production cards with the word I'm focusing on cloze deleted out. I use images from native material for the sentences. I'm pretty happy with it. I get the passive exposure from reading the sentences and the picture and active recall required for production help cement the word in my mind.

I guess I'd call it a vocab deck but I think the sentence part is still important.
Example front:
http://i.imgur.com/NvonLj6.jpg
Example back:
http://i.imgur.com/zQyK3Tw.jpg

How much of the sentence do you read? Or if the word come to you before even trying to read the sentence, as I think it happens in this example, do you still read it?

That's a good question, it depends on the source. In the example, I just read the bubble with the word. If it doesn't come to me still, I'll read the whole thing. If the word comes to me before I read it at all, which does happen, I make sure to still read the sentence before pressing pass.

EDIT: With manga I'll usually crop more of it than I actually plan to read just so I can capture the image of the scene.

Cracky, I have another question xD

Let's say you are reading a manga and you see a word you want to learn. But it's in a page where it is the only word, and the image is too generic and without enough context. Like a girl's face and the word "aishiteru". Do you add it anyway? Or do you search a better hinstance where the word is used? Or do you not add it at all?

cophnia61 Wrote:Cracky, I have another question xD

Let's say you are reading a manga and you see a word you want to learn. But it's in a page where it is the only word, and the image is too generic and without enough context. Like a girl's face and the word "aishiteru". Do you add it anyway? Or do you search a better hinstance where the word is used? Or do you not add it at all?

I usually just don't add it in that situation. I figure I'll run into it again eventually with more memorable context.

[Zgarbas]

I liked my sentence decks and found them very helpful for helping me understand context and language use, but found the vocab decks to be the most helpful for actually remembering vocabulary. In other words, why not both?

As to not waste too many words, I'll just show my general layout:

Front:
それが原因で 守兄さんは
うちからかんどうされちゃって

Back:
勘当 かんどう (n,vs) disinheritance

I like it, some other people might not.

Thanks for all the ideas, everyone. I guess it's different by person. I'm finding that the vocab deck is awesome for learning new words quickly. I often surprise people with words I know that are apparently "difficult" words. But I feel I'm not getting enough real input, just individual words.

Zgarbas Wrote:I liked my sentence decks and found them very helpful for helping me understand context and language use, but found the vocab decks to be the most helpful for actually remembering vocabulary. In other words, why not both?

I also wanted to do both. I originally thought to learn the vocab first, then learn sentences using the vocab later. That way I can easily read the sentence and just absorb the grammar. But I feel it's a little too slow now. I've recently been ramping up my studying and I'm finding my decks are growing too quickly so they're sucking up my time. So I thought there must be a better way.

Anywho, I suppose I'll try sentences a bit more and see which works better for me. I plan to keep studying my vocab deck but not add any new vocab to it; just review already learned vocab. New vocab will be introduced in the sentences.

Wish me luck! haha

[Zgarbas]

The more you do a type of exercise, the faster you get at it. You can start now and just add fewer new words/deck until you get used to the new system. SRS exercises took me a long time at first (didn't start out with Anki, but half an hour meant about 50 mixed reps at most), but after 1-2 years of going at it 30 mins meant about 800 vocab+sentence reps. SRS is about consistency, not rushing.
A good idea is to do the same vocab in your vocab deck as you are doing in your sentence deck (e.g. I was doing the みんなの日本語 sentence deck as well as the vocab deck), but there is a limited number of resources where that is a possibility without wasting too much time on organisation and mining.