ryuudou Wrote:Let me guess: you think Obama is a muslim too?

You Wrote:Jesus NinKenDo, stop being so condescending and insulting or I'll ban you.

You people are unreal.

NinKenDo Wrote:You can claim that SJW isn't a word (or whatever "sjw isn't a thing" is supposed to mean), but it obviously is, and it obviously means something, whether you like it or not.

It's a "word" in the same way calling someone stupid is a word. It signifies to me that the user of the term is trying to ridicule someone and reduce the impact of their arguments.

It's basically the buzzword used by people from far right-wing reactionary places to refer to anyone who has politics they don't like, and it has no actual definition.

NinKenDo Wrote:I also feel sorry for you that my expressing disdain for a set of ideas is "uncivil" to you, you must be quite thin skinned.

Is this really coming from the guy who just said people in his linguistics club are destroying Western Civilization™? LOL.

I'm gonna take the same approach as Linguistics club at this point and just choose not to engage in this discussion any further. I've staked whatever flag I felt the need to stake, and you've certainly staked yours. Assuming Zgbangasdahsgd or whatever doesn't ban me, I don't really care about this thread in other exchanges. So just don't bring it up elsewhere, neither will I and we'll get along fine. I no longer have the energy for these pissing matches, but I'm only just learning how to just ignore them properly.

[Zgarbas]

It saddens me when I am misunderstood in such a manner. English is not my first language, so perhaps I expressed it inadequately. Allow me to re-explain myself in hopes of making the forum guidelines understood.

Insults are not tolerated on this forum, though that being said bans are something that occur quite infrequently here. Luckily, warnings are usually a sufficient measure to take in case of escalation of aggression from certain users. Users are very rarely -if ever- banned, so one must be quite extreme to even get a threat of such a thing happening; I apologise if that is what you understood from my message; I was genuinely just giving you a warning to refrain from being insulting. Of course, opposing views are welcome on the forum so long as they are not condescending and insulting, and ad hominem free. If the reason for the warning was unclear, feel free to PM me regarding your post so as to not derail the topic further.

I am not sure in what discussion you are engaged in as since my entry into this thread you have simply acted condescending towards me, but of course, if something makes you feel uncomfortable then you are free to ignore it. I am unsure what flag I have staked, but I apologise if you have found it offensive.

NinKenDo Wrote:Just because somebody doesn't buy into this SJW crap, doesn't mean you can start throwing around accusations like "I bet you think Obama is a Muslim too" and still be taken seriously by anybody that isn't grinding the same axe as you, so just simmer down.

Based on this thread alone, I'd agree, but sholum's made comments in the past that struck me as borderline white supremacist. Wish I could remember what the thread was; some discussion about race, 'protecting culture,' etc. And I'm no bleeding heart--I agree that a lot of internet discussion about topics like cultural appropriation or feminism are bullshit.

I think aldebrn's post is pretty spot on.

While not particularly malicious, you can easily find some Wapanese/Weeaboo folk who think that Japan's commercial exports accurately reflect Japanese culture and that watching NGO and starting a Maid merch collection (ignore the bad subs) makes them fit into Japanese society just fine (or at least better than into American society).

I don't find this sort of ignorance particularly offensive, but it's something worth pointing out.

Of course, you'd have to set your cultural appropriation detector to ridiculously high settings to find language acquisition itself exploitative.

CreepyAF Wrote:I was sitting in a coffee shop this morning, working on Anki. As I mentioned in another thread, lately I've been writing down most of my reviews on an actual pad of paper. I had it out when a girl (probably college aged) walked up to me and said, "You know Chinese?"

I smiled and said no, it's Japanese, and I'm no where near fluent. She asked if I was half Japanese, and I said no, I'm just interested in the culture, media, food, etc.

At this point she criticized me for "stealing Japanese culture", distorting it with my non-Japanese perspective and then propagating a diluted version of Japan to anyone I converse with, and not taking into account how a Japanese person would feel about me "idolizing" their culture. She said this behavior can even be considered racist.

I assume you're in North America. The problem is our school system. Left wing idiots long ago took over the education system and they teach kids that white people are evil mean racists. That foolish girl who implied you were racist is a product of this bastardized educational system.

Ryuudou and Zgarbas just said all I was going to say (but I couldn't be bothered to engage claims, such as sholum's, in detai).

[Zgarbas]

'someone called insulted because she over-generalised people of a group she disliked and denied my individual agency in the matter'
'That's because this girl is an idiot, like everyone in the group whom she belongs to, and she has no agency in making that decision'

john555 Wrote:

CreepyAF Wrote:I was sitting in a coffee shop this morning, working on Anki. As I mentioned in another thread, lately I've been writing down most of my reviews on an actual pad of paper. I had it out when a girl (probably college aged) walked up to me and said, "You know Chinese?"

I smiled and said no, it's Japanese, and I'm no where near fluent. She asked if I was half Japanese, and I said no, I'm just interested in the culture, media, food, etc.

At this point she criticized me for "stealing Japanese culture", distorting it with my non-Japanese perspective and then propagating a diluted version of Japan to anyone I converse with, and not taking into account how a Japanese person would feel about me "idolizing" their culture. She said this behavior can even be considered racist.

I assume you're in North America. The problem is our school system. Left wing idiots long ago took over the education system and they teach kids that white people are evil mean racists.

No. Our schools do not teach that. Conservatives do teach kids that slavery wasn't that all that bad and like to whitewash history though.

john555 Wrote:is a product of this bastardized educational system.

"tha colleges brainwashing people" and a general bitter disdain for education seems to be a fascinating reoccurring trend with conservatives. I bet this is why most red states are poor. A true product of a bastardized incest system.

Yeah, trying to picture a first time visitor to this site.

Hi everyone! I'm interested in Japanese, wanted to learn about studying kanji and...Holy crazap, what's going on here?

Well this has been a pretty wild thread o.o

Roketzu Wrote:You should have told her not to worry about diluting the sacred Japanese culture for others because you were stealing it and keeping it all for yourself, locked deep inside your true samurai heart.

This is absolutely hilarious, I'm keeping it in my back pocket if a situation like this arises again lol

yogert909 Wrote:Yup, there's people like this. She's probably never traveled abroad so she knows nothing about the world and the people she's saving from your evil cultural appropriation.

It wouldn't surprise me if she hasn't traveled abroad. It's interesting, while researching this topic I've found examples of people from different cultures saying they feel flattered that the west is taking an interest in their traditions.

aldebrn Wrote:Have any of you have seen this film "Topsy Turvy”?

[...]

The filmmaker is lampooning this old-school the-sun-never-sets-on-the-British-empire racism: the Gilbert character is obviously expecting some kind of stereotypical coy giggle that he associates with exotic "geisha" about which he's read so breathlessly, and in the film, the three women are obviously confused and can't understand what the hell is going on even when their Japanese caretaker translates Gilbert's nonsensical request. In the end it doesn't work so Gilbert puts instructions for what he imagines is the only trait worth portraying in coy Japanese concubines: a laugh.

This kind of racism (and sexism), where a foreign culture that's supposed to be celebrated is reduced to a few ridiculous stereotypes and played off as the real thing, is I think alive and well.

This makes sense. Someone with limited knowledge of a topic could easily add in their pre-constructed notions to help fill in the blanks. Though I think this sort of fallacy can be avoided and corrected with a minimal awareness of where one's knowledge ends, and where one's assumptions begin.

RawrPk Wrote:This has happened to me before as well but not while studying. I was asked what I like to do for fun

Me: well I am learning Japanese
Person: You're fluent? Speak some Japanese to me
Me: I'm learning. Meaning I'm not fluent -_-
Person: *laughing and pointing at me at this time* so...do you just watch anime all day? Bet that's why you wanna learn Japanese!

I find it incredible how many people will put language learners on the spot, saying "say something in the language" and then will assume the learner knows nothing when they can't produce.

riogray Wrote:Imagining the conversation you had with this girl really made my day .

Looking back, I find it amusing, too.

gstieglitz Wrote:I think aldebrn's post is pretty spot on.

While not particularly malicious, you can easily find some Wapanese/Weeaboo folk who think that Japan's commercial exports accurately reflect Japanese culture and that watching NGO and starting a Maid merch collection (ignore the bad subs) makes them fit into Japanese society just fine (or at least better than into American society).

I don't find this sort of ignorance particularly offensive, but it's something worth pointing out.

Of course, you'd have to set your cultural appropriation detector to ridiculously high settings to find language acquisition itself exploitative.

In my own personal observations, people that fetishize Japanese culture typically are viewing the culture through a lens of stereotypes and pre-constructed notions. Though I agree, these don't seem to be particularly malicious.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Yeah, trying to picture a first time visitor to this site.

Hi everyone! I'm interested in Japanese, wanted to learn about studying kanji and...Holy crazap, what's going on here?

Zgarbas:
Just a suggestion, but I think it would be good if you clearly differentiated your speaking-as-a-moderator bits to your personal opinion bits. I'm pretty sure you're not, but it sounds a little bit like you're waving your power around on one particular side of the argument. Different coloured text or something?


Anyway, wow - I'm surprised that a forum about Japanese is so polarised and full of crazy. No one's even pretending they want to have a real discussion.

We don't know the girl, so we can not say if she is a byproduct of a mediocre educating system or if she is simply stupid/ignorant by itself xD She was generalizing about people interested in japanese culture (things like: "they are all nerd/otaku") and generalization is no good... But this doesn't mean we can generalize about things without even knowing this person. Maybe she votes republican, we don't know

Aikynaro Wrote:Anyway, wow - I'm surprised that a forum about Japanese is so polarised and full of crazy. No one's even pretending they want to have a real discussion.

To be fair, this is the part of the forum for "insanely off topic discussions". I've seen every person who has made polarizing posts in this thread also make rational, thoughtful, and insightful discussion in on topic threads.

[ファブリス]

@Aikynaro Sure, it was asked of me before. I think by default moderators speak in person. And green / red text is used for moderation action.

Our moderation tools are very crude and it will be much better with MyBB soon anyway. There is a warning system with points, a reason can be given, a PM can be sent, and the list of warnings given can be reviewed by both admin, moderator, and the person in question. These warnings expire after given amount of days, weeks, etc. So by default you'll find moderators speaking in person, although the names will stand out in a different colour. But we will discuss the details when the new forum is up.

CreepyAF Wrote:Well this has been a pretty wild thread o.o
...

RawrPk Wrote:This has happened to me before as well but not while studying. I was asked what I like to do for fun

Me: well I am learning Japanese
Person: You're fluent? Speak some Japanese to me
Me: I'm learning. Meaning I'm not fluent -_-
Person: *laughing and pointing at me at this time* so...do you just watch anime all day? Bet that's why you wanna learn Japanese!

I find it incredible how many people will put language learners on the spot, saying "say something in the language" and then will assume the learner knows nothing when they can't produce.

Ever since that happened I'm more reserved about revealing my interest in Japanese in general. I don't like being ridiculed for just trying to expand my horizons/learn new things. That's like laughing at a baby learning to walk (which is probably a good analogy for learning Japanese actually) struggling to balance and stay upright. How cruel :/

Zgarbas Wrote:'someone called insulted because she over-generalised people of a group she disliked and denied my individual agency in the matter'
'That's because this girl is an idiot, like everyone in the group whom she belongs to, and she has no agency in making that decision'

I just sort of skimmed the thread and didn't fully read every post, but you're complaining about people using words like SJW because it's condescending but you yourself used terms like MRA and "red pill section of reddit". How is that any different?

kameden Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:'someone called insulted because she over-generalised people of a group she disliked and denied my individual agency in the matter'
'That's because this girl is an idiot, like everyone in the group whom she belongs to, and she has no agency in making that decision'

I just sort of skimmed the thread and didn't fully read every post, but you're complaining about people using words like SJW because it's condescending but you yourself used terms like MRA and "red pill section of reddit". How is that any different?

because the second is a thing and the first isn't

that said, as someone on the far left i think the US left is a joke. but the concept of "whiteness" doesn't really exist in europe (outside nazi circles) so i'm probably missing something.

well, back to the ajito. see you.

poblequadrat Wrote:

kameden Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:'someone called insulted because she over-generalised people of a group she disliked and denied my individual agency in the matter'
'That's because this girl is an idiot, like everyone in the group whom she belongs to, and she has no agency in making that decision'

I just sort of skimmed the thread and didn't fully read every post, but you're complaining about people using words like SJW because it's condescending but you yourself used terms like MRA and "red pill section of reddit". How is that any different?

because the second is a thing and the first isn't

Exactly.

kameden Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:'someone called insulted because she over-generalised people of a group she disliked and denied my individual agency in the matter'
'That's because this girl is an idiot, like everyone in the group whom she belongs to, and she has no agency in making that decision'

I just sort of skimmed the thread and didn't fully read every post, but you're complaining about people using words like SJW because it's condescending but you yourself used terms like MRA and "red pill section of reddit". How is that any different?

MRA is an actual acronym for the official name of a group. Like NBA.

"sjw" isn't actually a thing. It's not a name of any group that exists. It's just a meaningless buzzword used to describe basically anything left of Hitler.

Aikynaro Wrote:like you're waving your power around on one particular side of the argument. Different coloured text or something?

That wasn't happening at all. There were specific people that started this. Zgarbas came in responding to repeat posts calling groups of people idiots and predicting the "fall of Western civilization" (AKA: woman and minorities are making social progress, this threatens me waaah). These posts were completely unprovoked. NinKenDo as well made an unprovoked post generalizing feminists (which isn't even on topic), calling them beasts, and then suggesting that his classmates are "destroying western civilization". NinKenDo then attacks Zgarbas directly and thus enters a personal conversation. Zgarbas however never stoops to that level and stays calm.

NinKenDo then realizes calling a mod "thin-skinned" after he whined about his classmates destroying society is a shocking lack of self-awareness, and decides to leave.

[Zgarbas]

Aikynaro Wrote:Zgarbas:
Just a suggestion, but I think it would be good if you clearly differentiated your speaking-as-a-moderator bits to your personal opinion bits. I'm pretty sure you're not, but it sounds a little bit like you're waving your power around on one particular side of the argument. Different coloured text or something?


Anyway, wow - I'm surprised that a forum about Japanese is so polarised and full of crazy. No one's even pretending they want to have a real discussion.

Yeah, I became aware that it came off as that >_<. Sorry. I figured that using moderator colour would be even more 'waving power around'ish. Normally I use green text when giving out warnings, but as this was more of a preemptory warning and the post was aimed at myself I was unsure how to proceed about it. Also, the coloured text stands out in a negative manner, so I normally avoid it outside in-message edits.

poblequadrat Wrote:"whiteness" doesn't really exist in europe (outside nazi circles) so i'm probably missing something.

Doesn't it? Whiteness is a pretty huge deal where I'm from. Everyone who's the least bit dark starts getting bullied for being a gipsy.

Quote:I just sort of skimmed the thread and didn't fully read every post, but you're complaining about people using words like SJW because it's condescending but you yourself used terms like MRA and "red pill section of reddit". How is that any different?

I don't mind the word SJW actually, though I hate the manner in which it is used as a strawman to automatically dismiss any progressive idea by associating it with a group of emotional people off the internet. It's the same tactic as dismissing feminism because of 'feminazis' even though feminazis get so much attention because it is in the interest of mainstream idea and media to promote them in order to reinforce their own view, much like how it is easier to make fun of a teenager getting emotional about something stupid than it is to genuinely sit down and confront problems in the everyday life of others.

My response about it being the red pill was about a previous post talking about how the girl is a real-life Tumblr user. Red Pill is a self-proclaimed group united by their ideals, and MRAs (and related groups such as MGTOW) are again, people who voluntarily call themselves that based on their common ideals and common hatred of the gynocracy which has oppressed them. It is a name that the group gives to itself, and sholum quoted a lot of their main ideas and examples (including the incredibly ridiculous scandal with the shirt, which no one actually cared about... someone watching the live stream just commented that the shirt is kind of silly and it got out of hand. There was no wave of hatred aimed against the guy.) so even though sholum himself might not identify as an MRA, he is definitely quoting from their websites. Including his dismissal of all social science as some sort of conspiracy, which officially makes his statements beyond what I would consider worth my time directly responding to.

I feel like threads such as these belong on Reddit/Tumblr, not here. Sure it's the offtopic section, but man...

Zgarbas Wrote:My response about it being the red pill was about a previous post talking about how the girl is a real-life Tumblr user. Red Pill is a self-proclaimed group united by their ideals, and MRAs (and related groups such as MGTOW) are again, people who voluntarily call themselves that based on their common ideals and common hatred of the gynocracy which has oppressed them.

I think that what has happened in the past 10-20 years is that minorities (ethnic and otherwise) are making greater strides in their demands for equality, so that now white males who didn't consider themselves prejudiced before are now finding out that they are. They just escaped notice before because they weren't prejudiced when compared to blatantly racist groups and otherwise. The defensive reaction is to join MRA groups and accuse everyone of being SJWs or whatever other term you can come up with.

I really don't have enough interest in all this left/right thing to know what the various acronyms being tossed around even mean.

Just as an outsider, I would have thought that the notion of "cultural appropriation" in itself shows a supreme arrogance and an unspoken assumption that white Western culture is THE culture and therefore what it does with the bits of other cultures it assimilates (and all cultures other than isolated tribal ones assimilate bits of other cultures) is of huge importance to those other cultures.

The fact is, I would have thought, that just as most Americans neither know nor care how the Japanese are using bits of English, most Japanese people neither know nor care how (a few) Western people are using bits of Japanese. Why should they? The assumption that they do is founded on the assumption that white western culture is the pivot of the world.

[Zgarbas]

It's not really about assimilation. Asian-American culture, for example, is quite common and a natural occurrence following the migration of Asians into the US. Cultural appropriation is more about having a simplified understanding of other cultures which leads people in a position of power to imitate aspects of other cultures, often in a manner which denigrates the importance of those aspects or helps perpetuate negative values. Of course, a lot of such actions are done voluntarily on the behalf of the other cultures themselves (Japanese people love to take you around Shinto shrines and teach you how to pray to them, for example), and usually the reaction from the locals is more amusement than actual offense, but it does carry certain implications that are part of a greater discourse.

For example, the appropriation of religious or important culture attire for fun (dreadlocks, Native American headdress) is generally considered cultural appropriation as it undermines the importance that they have in their original culture. Cultural appropriation of Japan is usually called out when people do sexy kimono modifications or dress up as geishas or mikos... though it should be mentioned that in Japan you can legitimately go to certain spots and do the geisha get-up, and mikos have lost their religious signification and are now just a plain job uniform. Of course, the fetishisation of such attire is yet another aspect...

It's not about actually liking Japan or learning Japanese or eating Japanese food, it's about being demeaning. And yes, usually it's white people doing it as white culture is the dominant one, and it has pushed its values onto other cultures; as such, appropriation is not done in a derogatory manner so much as because they are not the world's standard values, though of course there are exceptions. The Western cross as a fashion accessory would be a good example of cultural appropriation of Western culture. A lot of countries (including Japan!) also culturally appropriate the qipao and fetishise it.

The reason why Western discourse is usually the target of such analysis is that 1) you're a Westerner so it's the one you are likely to hear more about, 2) Western discourse is, at the moment, the world discourse, and its values have been actively and subconsciously integrated into world discourse, which has led to many of its standards becoming universal, 3) it is by far the most extensive. I didn't grow up with Romanian discourse, I grew up with Western shows and Western trains of thought and reading Western authors; the average Romanian will know far more about the US than about their own country. This goes for many countries around the world. South Americans will learn that their history began when they were colonised by Europeans, Romanians will learn that their history began when they were colonised by the Roman Empire, Japanese people will learn that anything pre-US interference is ancient history. When Western discourse has such a say in what matters to the entire world, it is inevitably the one to come under the spotlight.

Also, the English in Japan was a result of direct effort on the Western side. Japanese people did not just wake up one day and decide to start using it.