Hi,

I've been starting to read more and I'm running into the problem that if there's furigana present, I totally gloss over the kanji and simply read the furigana. This is ok for practice, but I'll never learn to read without furigana this way. I'm wondering if anyone else had this problem and what you have done to focus more on the kanji. Do I just need to slow down and cover up the furigana while reading?

Or maybe I just need to progress to more advanced reading material which has less furigana? The trouble then is I run into words that I don't know the reading for, but I would recognize the word with furigana. I'm guessing this is what dictionaries are for, but maybe there's something else I'm missing.

Of course these problems are easier to solve with electronic texts, but I'm reading graded readers, so rikaisama won't help me here.

Thoughts?

I always cover up furigana. If I don't know the reading or forget it, it can be helpful. But this is a crutch that is not reliably around.

Moving the book further back can put the furigana out of focus but there are always clues that you don't want to see.

I think it's fine to use the furigana. You're still practicing reading and grammar, and you'll move into writings with less furigana eventually.

I detest furigana. Too distracting. When I'm reading a passage for practice I prefer to write the pronunciations down on a separate sheet of paper that I can refer to if necessary.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I think it's fine to use the furigana. You're still practicing reading and grammar, and you'll move into writings with less furigana eventually.

So you think it's just the natural process as I graduate to slightly more advanced levels I will just absorb the kanji readings without any special effort? I can see this might be the way it works, but I'm worried because I literally don't see the kanji if there's furigana on it.

Maybe it's just my temperament as I enjoy going fast and have to slow myself down for a lot of things. It's just so fun to read as fast as I can and since I learned vocabulary in the kana form before I learned kanji, I feel like I might have trained myself to completely ignore the kanji..

Just stop reading stuff with furigana. If you want to read native content than the best way to practice is to read native content. It's like someone asking how to lose weight, everyone knows but they just want an easier way that doesn't exist. Sometimes the obvious things are hard to see.

I've read somewhere that reading material with furigana is ok...as long as you don't stay reading furigana material indefinitely. With time, you can eventually graduate to native material without furigana. Based on this particular topic I found on Ask Meta Filter, it seems the users agree here that if you feel the furigana to be more annoying than beneficial, that it's time for you to graduate to more difficult native materials.

http://ask.metafilter.com/214019/Please-...d-Japanese

Quote:but since you say that furigana are too much of a crutch for you, adult novels might be the way to go. (Or light novels, which sometimes have furigana for the first appearance of a particular word and not later appearances.)

Mix things up between intensive reading where you look up almost every words you don't know and extensive reading where you try to refer to a dictionary only when necessary. Also, try not to read things at the edge of your ability, saying that you CAN read harder stuff so that you SHOULD be reading harder stuff. I found that I had to read a ton of relatively easy books (mostly light novels) to build up the kind of base where I could read fast and well and when I read harder books, I was reading fast and well even though I was more frequently interrupted by unknown words.

this stood out to me and I have a feeling this is something you might find useful.

EDIT: gomen...I didn't see this last bit

yogert909 Wrote:Or maybe I just need to progress to more advanced reading material which has less furigana? The trouble then is I run into words that I don't know the reading for, but I would recognize the word with furigana. I'm guessing this is what dictionaries are for, but maybe there's something else I'm missing.

Here are a few suggestions: narrow reading and looking for those exact words in different context.

Narrow reading: reading different media on the same topic/genre.

Quote:Narrow Reading: Rather than skipping around and reading about a lot of different subjects, reading a variety of different texts about the same subject builds background knowledge and creates more comprehensible input. As an example you may read four different newspaper articles about the same current event. Each author writes from their own point of view, but each uses the same set of words and structures. Read More. This could also be expanded to other activities: watching movies, listening to podcasts and listening to other native speakers – all about the same topic

http://www.everydaylanguagelearner.com/2...ble-input/


Looking up the specific words and finding different sentences: this can be done via google, online dictonaries, twitter, etc. Then wherever you find these example sentences, you can input in Anki or just have an "a-ha!" moment where it just clicks. I had a recent experience with the word　匂い and had my *click* moment when I watched an episode of Dora the Explorer in Japanese lol

I was just wondering what kind of material you like.
There's lots of stuff out there without furigana, almost no matter what you are in to.

Voiced VNs and videogames will use the audio together with a kanjified version of the word (because voice actors will read the lines for you). That will sometimes help you to learn the kanjified version of the word, or at least it will help you learn that you don't yet know the kanjified version of the word. I like VNs better for this because a large number of them have a feature where you can play the audio for the line over and over.

Just about any novel you pick up will have no furigana for most words, if that's what you're looking for.

I wouldn't worry about this too much. You'll run across the kanjified version eventually, look it up, and learn the reading of that word.

RawrPk Wrote:Narrow reading: reading different media on the same topic/genre.

Quote:Narrow Reading: Rather than skipping around and reading about a lot of different subjects, reading a variety of different texts about the same subject builds background knowledge and creates more comprehensible input. As an example you may read four different newspaper articles about the same current event. Each author writes from their own point of view, but each uses the same set of words and structures. Read More. This could also be expanded to other activities: watching movies, listening to podcasts and listening to other native speakers – all about the same topic

http://www.everydaylanguagelearner.com/2...ble-input/

Narrow reading is a really good idea that I'd almost forgotten about. I'm still just beginning to read, so the material I'm starting out with is pretty basic and consequently has full furigana coverage. Maybe in another month or two i'll pick something for narrow reading. My main problem with that will probably be that:

jcdietz Wrote:I was just wondering what kind of material you like.
There's lots of stuff out there without furigana, almost no matter what you are in to.

I'm really not into video games, manga or anime. If I'm reading in english, I read non-fiction almost exclusively but that almost guarantees material above my level in Japanese. I just started reading, so I actually need the furigana, I just want to learn the kanji form of the words while I'm reading if possible. Ideally, I would be able to read adult books about Japanese history, but that's probably waaay too advanced for me at this point. That gives me a good idea though, maybe there's some kids books about Oda Nobunaga or Toyotomi Hideyoshi that I could start out with...hmm.

Some good ideas here. Thanks!

yogert909 Wrote:This is ok for practice, but I'll never learn to read without furigana this way.

Why? Isn't that how millions of Japanese kids learn? Anyway, what I used to do is to hold the book at a distance, so that it was easier to read the kanji than the furigana. You might miss some funny stuff, though. Like 会長 with the furigana ジジイ.

yogert909 Wrote:

RawrPk Wrote:Narrow reading: reading different media on the same topic/genre.

Quote:Narrow Reading: Rather than skipping around and reading about a lot of different subjects, reading a variety of different texts about the same subject builds background knowledge and creates more comprehensible input. As an example you may read four different newspaper articles about the same current event. Each author writes from their own point of view, but each uses the same set of words and structures. Read More. This could also be expanded to other activities: watching movies, listening to podcasts and listening to other native speakers – all about the same topic

http://www.everydaylanguagelearner.com/2...ble-input/

Narrow reading is a really good idea that I'd almost forgotten about. I'm still just beginning to read, so the material I'm starting out with is pretty basic and consequently has full furigana coverage. Maybe in another month or two i'll pick something for narrow reading. My main problem with that will probably be that:

jcdietz Wrote:I was just wondering what kind of material you like.
There's lots of stuff out there without furigana, almost no matter what you are in to.

I'm really not into video games, manga or anime. If I'm reading in english, I read non-fiction almost exclusively but that almost guarantees material above my level in Japanese. I just started reading, so I actually need the furigana, I just want to learn the kanji form of the words while I'm reading if possible. Ideally, I would be able to read adult books about Japanese history, but that's probably waaay too advanced for me at this point. That gives me a good idea though, maybe there's some kids books about Oda Nobunaga or Toyotomi Hideyoshi that I could start out with...hmm.

Some good ideas here. Thanks!

There are like 10000 manga histories of Japan, not sure if they feature furigana, though!

yogert909 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:I think it's fine to use the furigana. You're still practicing reading and grammar, and you'll move into writings with less furigana eventually.

So you think it's just the natural process as I graduate to slightly more advanced levels I will just absorb the kanji readings without any special effort? I can see this might be the way it works, but I'm worried because I literally don't see the kanji if there's furigana on it.

Maybe it's just my temperament as I enjoy going fast and have to slow myself down for a lot of things. It's just so fun to read as fast as I can and since I learned vocabulary in the kana form before I learned kanji, I feel like I might have trained myself to completely ignore the kanji..

No, you won't learn kanji as well if you have furigana there. But you'll be learning other things that are important for reading aside from the kanji. The kanji can come later.

Furigana is fine and I think you're seeing a problem where there is none. Glossing over kanji with furigana is great. Each time you gloss over it, you give yourself more of a chance to recognise it when you hit upon it without furigana.

Just keep going. If after a year or so of serious reading you haven't noticed any improvement - sure, come back and tell me I'm wrong. But I can say for myself that I started needing complete furigana and now do not, without putting any special effort into it.

I'm sure if you wanted to speed the process up you could by studying, but for me - given the choice between putting in effort for speed vs leveling up slowly with none - the second always wins out. But I'm lazy.

There are lots of children's history books out there. Boys love all that samurai stuff...

For me the furigana has to be written so small as to be unreadable or I find reading very difficult.

The NHK Easy site for instance has way to big furigana that seems to affect spacing, and definitely keep me from reading it well.

But part of that is also the fact that I almost cannot read all hiragana texts, because I seem to be a gestalt reader. I am also a horrible proofreader in English because I don't notice doubled words, and any switches that do not affect the shape of the words.

Not dyslexic, but something like that I guess. The fact that I taught myself to read my native tongue (English) probably has something to do with it.

Thanks for all of your input! So I think I'm going to just keep reading with furigana and hope that things sort themselves out organically. Thanks again!

So far the only historical type of manga I could think of at the top of my head was Vagabond.

Based on the life of Miyamoto Musashi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi


You can check it out thr raw manga here. Furigana isn't everywhere but I did see some.
http://raw.senmanga.com/Vagabond/

Your problem has less to do with you reading furigana and more to do with being obsessed with "reading things at your level" whatever that means. Most experienced language learners will tell you that readings things that interest you will help you learn much faster than reading things that are easy.

kameden Wrote:Your problem has less to do with you reading furigana and more to do with being obsessed with "reading things at your level" whatever that means. Most experienced language learners will tell you that readings things that interest you will help you learn much faster than reading things that are easy.

I don't know about this. I've gotten the opposite advice from several experienced language learners that I respect, so it's not an obsession. It does seem to make sense for me at this point to read something that I don't have to look up 90% of the words and have major problems with grammar. I do think at some point I will just dive right in, because that's the kind of person I am, but I'm truly am such a beginner where even the easy stuff is hard. So I think it's better to crawl around a little before I try running.

RawrPk Wrote:So far the only historical type of manga I could think of at the top of my head was Vagabond.

Based on the life of Miyamoto Musashi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi


You can check it out thr raw manga here. Furigana isn't everywhere but I did see some.
http://raw.senmanga.com/Vagabond/

This is good. I know who Musashi is, but I haven't read too much about him yet. Do you happen to know how historically accurate the manga is? Probably not very accurate, but one can hope.

If you want to read about Japanese history, you could try checking out 「留学生のための日本史」/Japanese History: An Introductory Text. You can find it on rutracker. It's very simply written and just uses furigana for the first time a word is presented.

To give you an idea of the difficulty level of this book, here's the first chapter:

1 いま、どこにすんでいますか

　わたしたちは、地球にすんでいます。地球は、わたしたち人間がすんでいる世界です。
　この世界には、陸地と海があります。陸地には、大きい陸地や小さい陸地があります。大きい陸地を大陸といいます。まわりに海がある、小さい陸地を島といいます。
　地図をみてください。六つの大陸と、たくさんの大きい島や小さい島があります。この六つの大陸を六大陸といいます。このなかでいちばん大きいのは、ユーラシア大陸です。そのほかは、アフリカ大陸、北アメリカ大陸、南アメリカ大陸、オーストラリア大陸、南極大陸です。ユーラシア大陸には、ヨーロッパ大陸とアジア大陸があります。
　海のなかで大きいのは、太平洋、大西洋、インド洋です。この三つの海を三大洋といいます。
　日本は太平洋のなかの島です。この島は、アジア大陸の東のはしにあります。

Morellet Wrote:If you want to read about Japanese history, you could try checking out 「留学生のための日本史」/Japanese History: An Introductory Text. You can find it on rutracker. It's very simply written and just uses furigana for the first time a word is presented.

oooh, this is good too. I like that it seems it's an e-text so I can read in wakaru on my phone. Thanks!

yogert909 Wrote:

RawrPk Wrote:So far the only historical type of manga I could think of at the top of my head was Vagabond.

Based on the life of Miyamoto Musashi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi


You can check it out thr raw manga here. Furigana isn't everywhere but I did see some.
http://raw.senmanga.com/Vagabond/

This is good. I know who Musashi is, but I haven't read too much about him yet. Do you happen to know how historically accurate the manga is? Probably not very accurate, but one can hope.

I don't know personally since I myself haven't read the series. My bf has read the English translations and as far as he knows the only historical facts he knows is that Musashi was indeed a samurai who had developed an unorthodox fighting style during his time and won many battles. But other than that I can't say for sure.

yogert909 Wrote:I don't know about this. I've gotten the opposite advice from several experienced language learners that I respect, so it's not an obsession. It does seem to make sense for me at this point to read something that I don't have to look up 90% of the words and have major problems with grammar. I do think at some point I will just dive right in, because that's the kind of person I am, but I'm truly am such a beginner where even the easy stuff is hard. So I think it's better to crawl around a little before I try running.

I didn't mean it in a mean way or anything, most inexperienced language learners do this (including me), which is why people say learning a 3rd language is easier than a 2nd. If you look at Steven Kaufman's videos on youtube, he always talks about the biggest mistake people make is staying with beginner material too long. The excuse of not being good enough never goes away. If you were really a person that can just dive in you probably would have done it already, which makes me think you'll never do it and always keep reading stuff that's easy, which is a good way to make really slow progress and get burnt out on stuff you don't care about in the mean time.

That's usually an issue with just pure extensive reading. Not that I have any problems with extensive reading or anything.

Here is a blog and an article about the differences (overview, advantages/disadvantages) of extensive and intensive reading.

https://languagefixation.wordpress.com/2...e-reading/

http://fis.ucalgary.ca/Brian/611/readingtype.html

From what I can conclude from both sources is that extensive reading is great for the "big picture" and reinforcing vocabulary while intensive reading is where you learn brand new vocabulary and grammar points.

So from that, I can only guess that the best way to do this is to read multiple books with a certain range of difficulty.

kameden Wrote:Just stop reading stuff with furigana. If you want to read native content than the best way to practice is to read native content. It's like someone asking how to lose weight, everyone knows but they just want an easier way that doesn't exist. Sometimes the obvious things are hard to see.

There are many ways to lose weight. Some are easy, some are hard. Same with this. It's important to keep reading materials comprehensible and accessible, just as it's important to keep diet and exercise comfortable and manageable. And, since yogert is using physical copies (which is great, far more appealing than staring at a monitor or even reading printed out materials off a wad of printing paper), it's probably a good idea to just hack the readers he has, find a way to temporarily put something over the furigana as he reads. Maybe some kind of tape would work, if it doesn't rip up the paper when removed.