みんあさん、よろしく！

ちょっとお願いしたいことがあるんですが

I'm an oldie Kanji-ophile from the eighties, back again to push those kanji 岩 up n' over "Heisig Hill". So to that end, I've re-(re) learned my radicals, with a fair dose of "normal" class instruction (the アチコチ way of kanji instruction, through Genki II, and a bit beyond.) Now, I want to make tracks, and could really use your help. Previously, I've used Skritter, as well as Anki, a bit.

So, what methods work for you? The Heisig app seems, well, I'm not sure. What do you all use when you *really* want it done right? WANIKANI looks like it's going to be amazing. But perhaps I should start with RTK, first? How about MEMRISE? "Niko" of NIHONGO SHARK gets high praises for his modified Anki methods (lots of ways to toggle to get the preferred mnemonic "stories", etc.). And hands-down, I definitely enjoy the stories here with the Koohii community, and (thanks guys!) will *definitely* make use of your answers supplied so far -- and give the Web-based Koohi SRS a try.

But I *do* have one small concern re. the stories offered by community members. Granted, I've only had time to give cursory glances, but several of the member-supplied "stories" seem to refer to non-Heisig mnemonic systems. I could be wrong; I know that some change names as they re-combine to form more complex characters, but I've researched a few, and still haven't found where "panda" comes from, for example. I could be wrong, but if non-Heisig key terms are being offered, it might be helpful to create a toggle option to indicate *which* system the member's component names come from.

Bottom line: If you were in my shoes and wanted to progress fast, what TWO steps would you take?

I'm asking for a *couple* of steps, because Westerners have a *big* task: even once we can draw and pronounce said characters, this alone doesn't make us literate. Rather, we arrive at another stage, and unique one at that, given that it's of course *totally* different than what Japanese or Chinese experience, growing up indigenous a culture that's teeming with them. There, kids are not only given family and social guidance for these characters, but constant exposure to larger lexicon and family of words that such kanji come from -- very similar to how we can "suss out" medical terms, if we've learned a healthy dose of latin, or at least know our prefixes, suffixes and some basic root word etymology.

My personal answer for a "Step Two" would be to create a *programmed reading list*. That also seems to be what Koichi (of Tofugu fame) would say, and I suspect he's right. Given what I studied re. "learning theory", I suspect there truly is something vital to contextualizing the use of Kanji, all along the way, rather than waiting for "all" the basic kanji forms and their meanings to be recognizeable. A far slower method, for sure, but perhaps, ultimately more usable. THAT SAID, that's *not* what works for many -- so I look forward to hearing that, too! Alas, it's *almost* a moot point (temporarily) as grad school has had me pretty tasked out. BUT, I'm still highly interested in your advice. And I'll definitely follow up any input you have for what will ultimately will be part of my culminating project in my grad program (I'm interested in studying how westerners / non-Japanese approach learning kanji in a Web 2.0 era).

Currently, my own path for self study will likely be:

1. STEP ONE: Master RTK 1 / with Koohi's "Reviewing the Kanji" or "Memrise", or (fill in SRS-based app of choice).
2. STEP TWO: Begin Joyou Kanji list. Combine with (~fill in your app / site)

NOTE: Please *name* any "graduated reading program" you use, or have heard good things about.
　
Thanks 皆-dudes! To inspire answers, here are 3 links I've found helpful in considering this question:

1. Link to Niko (Nihongo Shark's) ideas on using Koohii + Anki:
http://nihongoshark.com/learn-kanji/
2. Koichi (Textfugu / Wanikani / Tofugu) has two great articles: An "intro" on "How to Learn Kanji":
http://www.textfugu.com/kanji/how-to-learn-kanji/
3. And (above) various methods for Kanji study options:
http://www.tofugu.com/2014/02/14/the-dif...-i-see-it/

お返事を待ちしております！

SpikeyGuy

I may not totally understand what you are looking for but it seems the gist of what you said is that you want to learn the kanji once and for all. Well, you are probably in the right place. I'm assuming you know about the actual site attached to this forum right? There is an SRS system built into the site and you can just click on the stories you like to 'borrow' them for your own use. Even if you don't want to use the site's SRS you can just export the flashcards you make on the site into anki (or whatever you want, it exports as a CSV file).
Personally, I used the site and paper cards until about #2000 and then switched to anki (both on desktop and as a mobile app). I now use anki for everything - Japanese, immunology, anatomy, biochem, etc. When I study I actually write the kanji/vocab out on paper. I naturally have horrible writing so I used this site to practise my penmanship: http://www.yamasa.org/ocjs/kanjidic.nsf/...3?OpenForm
Everyone is different however so you will need to experiment a bit I would think. Some people like brute force, some people like SRS, some people use a combo of the two - what ever keeps you learning is going to be the right answer for yourself.
I'm sure someone else will give you a much better answer but I figured I would at least try to help.

My advice, use this site's SRS.... Fabrice spent a lot of time recently making it work well for mobile devices, so now there's no need to dl another app to your phone or anything.

FYI soon there will be an android native app that works with this site for a better review experience, including the ability to sketch the kanji on the device.

Fabrice is working on the API, which opens the door for other platforms.

porukkusu Wrote:...including the ability to sketch the kanji on the device.

No way! That is awesome! Even the mobile-friendly update to the site ktcgx mentioned is great. I wish these kinds of things would have been around when I first did RTK.
@SpikeyGuy: I think you have a pretty good answer now I think. Good luck studying!

*Huge* thanks @REH94, @ktcgx, and @porukkusu (cool character, btw)

Apologies, REH94, for some ambiguous phrasing, there. I'll drink more "koohi", next time (or maybe, less). Your insights were great, and I like your link -- I definitely feel for you with the "penmanship" issue! Great insights, all around, and I *did* re-tool my initial question -- and even expand it a bit, basically, to contextualize it by saying that as a grad student, as part of my final culminating project, I'm very interested in studying how westerners / non-Japanese approach learning kanji in a Web 2.0 era.

I also added couple reasons why I see need to have follow-up steps, the gist being "Even once Westerners / non-Japanese can draw and pronounce characters, we're not literate, We arrive at a (unique) new beginning that's *totally* different than the indigenous experience for these in a culture that's teeming with them. Japanese kids not only get family and social guidance, but constant exposure to family of words that kanj come from."

I also added in recent thoughts on the debate (moot, here, I know) over "Which is better, total RTK mastery first, or contextualized reinforcement, all along the way?" BTW, Fabrice *really* did some impressive work here. HUGE hats off to him, for sure. Sadly, I use iPhone, but may have to go get a cheap Android, just to try it out! If "Kanji Stories" is his current mobile app, I'm not seeing anything beyond keyword / number search. (Is that his??)

Thanks again, guys, *really* appreciate your input,

SpikeyGuy

SpikeyGuy Wrote:Sadly, I use iPhone, but may have to go get a cheap Android, just to try it out!

The app is published here: http://slideme.org/application/kanji-ryokucha. Requires Jelly Bean or higher.
There is a sticky thread dedicated to it.

I also do iOS development but not independently, I would love to do the iOS version of this app but I would have to pay Apple. I really don't like the idea of charging on a non for profit thing just to try to break even :/

Wow, the site's screenshots make it look great, and definitely containing all the needed parts. So, seems I've found my new reason to get that Droid, now. I'm still an avid iPhone user, but I feel you on the prohibitive entry costs. Pity they can't lower costs for people who contribute from a non-profit category).

Btw, noticed that a number of Koohi kanji contributors' stories seem to be non-Heisig based. Words like "Panda" and even McDonalds have popped up, and I can't find these in key word searches (since my RTK editions go back to the '80'sl I thought these terms might be new to later editions).

My hunch is that members are mixing in keywords from non-Heisig canon systems. These could be useful, but it'd be great if to have a toggle those users could check for Wanikani-, or other systems', to help avoid any confusion.

Koohi's an amazing site...I've admired it for some time, in fact. Many thanks!

Panda, Mr. T etc. are extensions. Bamboo is too generic and hard to make into a story that pops out. A grove full of bamboo is just what you see out your back window if you live in Japan, especially in the South. But a room full of pandas (because they eat 竹) is far easier to remember because a room full of pandas is memorable.

McDonalds (Triple quadruple stacked hamburger) is 食 for the same reasons. "Food" is something you eat every day. A Dagwood Hamburger as tall as a person is memorable.

Remember the system works best when you use it in order. I am pretty sure there are a lot of people explaining the substitutions that work for them at the introduction of the character in question.

Heisig's stories are often use pretty non-functional keywords for activating visual memory (Rice?, water?, Dog?). And then the fact that he uses ten different words for bladed weapons that make them not distinguishable or memorable.

And he uses "eye" for both 罒 and 目, and "person lying down" for ? when it is clearly a rifle, or a sub-machine gun or a crutch. Or really anything to make it stand apart from 亻．