Sensei! Teach me nihongo, onegaishimasu! (｡◕ ∀ ◕｡)

I thought that this seemed like an obvious conversation piece, but after doing a bit of searching on the forum, I couldn't find any topic that fit it 100%. Please direct me to the thread if I've missed it.

Anywho, if you were to create a guide to learning Japanese from beginner to high-intermediate, what would your regime look like? What would the phases be? What technology/books/resources would be strongly leaned on? How long would it take? Etc.

CreepyAF Wrote:Sensei! Teach me nihongo, onegaishimasu! (｡◕ ∀ ◕｡)

I thought that this seemed like an obvious conversation piece, but after doing a bit of searching on the forum, I couldn't find any topic that fit it 100%. Please direct me to the thread if I've missed it.

Anywho, if you were to create a guide to learning Japanese from beginner to high-intermediate, what would your regime look like? What would the phases be? What technology/books/resources would be strongly leaned on? How long would it take? Etc.

People will probably jump all over me for this, but here is the single most useful book I used in my journey to being able to read real Japanese books:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Teach-You...unn+yanada

The book is all romaji, so of course afterward I used RTK1 (and a couple of other books).

Here is a stickied thread of user methods. And then there's Nukemarine's guide for beginners. I believe Nukemarine's guide is something close to what the average person on this forum is using for self study, but everyone puts their own spin on things. Of course there are outliers who's methods work well for them too.

I really think it's worth investing in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar whatever you do. A lot of questions I see asked here and other places have already been answered in that book.

Probably RTK1 → Tae Kim & CORE 2k/6K decks → N2 Tanos Vocabulary deck & Kanzen Master N2 grammar → N1 Tanos Vocabulary deck, Kanzen Master N1 Grammar & Reading. Adding in a ton of native media, books, and manga in between regular studying. That was pretty much my path to N1 (editing out the parts where I tried a lot of things which didn't work). Granted, people have different ways of learning and such, so my main advice might be to try a bunch of things when it comes to language learning. Eventually you'll find something which works for you.

Oh, and don't be afraid to stop a learning method if it isn't working for you. I kept trying to make language classes work for me much longer than I should have, and wasted a lot of time. If I had stopped and started looking for other methods, like Anki and how to best use it, I wouldn't have gotten as frustrated.

Mine:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6840

Bokusenou Wrote:Probably RTK1 → Tae Kim & CORE 2k/6K decks → N2 Tanos Vocabulary deck & Kanzen Master N2 grammar → N1 Tanos Vocabulary deck, Kanzen Master N1 Grammar & Reading. Adding in a ton of native media, books, and manga in between regular studying. That was pretty much my path to N1 (editing out the parts where I tried a lot of things which didn't work). Granted, people have different ways of learning and such, so my main advice might be to try a bunch of things when it comes to language learning. Eventually you'll find something which works for you.

Oh, and don't be afraid to stop a learning method if it isn't working for you. I kept trying to make language classes work for me much longer than I should have, and wasted a lot of time. If I had stopped and started looking for other methods, like Anki and how to best use it, I wouldn't have gotten as frustrated.

Assuming someone does not know what any of those things mean, or how to set them up and use them, is there a system that is more turn-key? For people pressed for time, being able to jump right in and not do any setup is a worth money.

I am sure a fair number of people stopped using Anki because it's not at all obvious how to use it. That's why I stopped using it.

kapalama Wrote:

Bokusenou Wrote:Probably RTK1 → Tae Kim & CORE 2k/6K decks → N2 Tanos Vocabulary deck & Kanzen Master N2 grammar → N1 Tanos Vocabulary deck, Kanzen Master N1 Grammar & Reading. Adding in a ton of native media, books, and manga in between regular studying. That was pretty much my path to N1 (editing out the parts where I tried a lot of things which didn't work). Granted, people have different ways of learning and such, so my main advice might be to try a bunch of things when it comes to language learning. Eventually you'll find something which works for you.

Oh, and don't be afraid to stop a learning method if it isn't working for you. I kept trying to make language classes work for me much longer than I should have, and wasted a lot of time. If I had stopped and started looking for other methods, like Anki and how to best use it, I wouldn't have gotten as frustrated.

Assuming someone does not know what any of those things mean, or how to set them up and use them, is there a system that is more turn-key? For people pressed for time, being able to jump right in and not do any setup is a worth money.

I am sure a fair number of people stopped using Anki because it's not at all obvious how to use it. That's why I stopped using it.

I think, at least for me, even if the other things like anki are important, the only thing I find essential for me was and still is RtK. If one finds Anki too messy there is always this website. If I had to do the bare minimum in terms of software and other resources, I think I would have done RtK with the help of koohii to review, and then simply reading a lot (included easy material like textbooks in the beginning, like Genki or similar). But without RtK I will be lost xD But that's just me xD

[RawToast]

kapalama Wrote:I am sure a fair number of people stopped using Anki because it's not at all obvious how to use it. That's why I stopped using it.

I really should start a business remote desktopping onto peoples machines and installing Anki for them. Of course I'd have to charge $5-10 per month afterwards, just like iKnow, WankiKani, Coori, etc.

kapalama Wrote:Assuming someone does not know what any of those things mean, or how to set them up and use them, is there a system that is more turn-key? For people pressed for time, being able to jump right in and not do any setup is a worth money.

I am sure a fair number of people stopped using Anki because it's not at all obvious how to use it. That's why I stopped using it.

RTK1 → Tae Kim & CORE 2k/6K decks → N2 Tanos Vocabulary deck & Kanzen Master N2 grammar → N1 Tanos Vocabulary deck, Kanzen Master N1 Grammar & Reading

There's not much more turn-key than that. There's also the nukemarine thread I posted earlier with all of the materials hot-linked. The only thing more turnkey than that is a textbook series like the genki series or taking classes.

Dunno, if you can't get anki working, it's unlikely you have what it takes to self-learn Japanese. It works fairly well without any configuration and all you have to do is download a shared deck and study it every day. What's so hard about that?

What about Japanese The Manga Way? I've heard it's supposed to be useful (on Amazon at least, the reviews are almost universally favourable).

So if people don't want to spend hours fiddling with configuring software, they do not have the, what, mental ability?, patience? to learn a language? That's silly and slightly offensive.

People were just buying the RTK book to burn for heat for the 30 years it was on sale before Anki? Nintendo DS has no language software? No one else is selling already setup programs?

It's just silly. Some people think updating to the newest system of whatever and then fighting with it makes sense. Some people don't. If the goal is to save time, then the time saving system cannot take hours to set up, with an uncertain promise of working in the end. Some'd rather spend time studying. Beta testing someone else software for them is a turn-on for many people. Some people don't like it. Many people studying languages need it for work, and any time not studying or working is wasted money. (He said, wasting time arguing on a forum…. )

I have no idea how Anki on the iPhone/iPod works now. It used to be a major, major headache, where you had to run a server on a desktop computer just to load decks on to an iPhone. I bought the software, fought with it for a couple of weeks, and then just took it off the phone, and got software that actually worked, as in came with everything installed. Instead of having to buy this and download that on your computer and then run a server to get it to the phone.

It may have gotten better. Is it turn key now, where people can just do everything you listed directly on the phone?

If it is anything like it used to be, it's really not something I can recommend to people.

kapalama Wrote:I have no idea how Anki on the iPhone/iPod works now. It used to be a major, major headache, where you had to run a server on a desktop computer just to load decks on to an iPhone. I bought the software, fought with it for a couple of weeks, and then just took it off the phone, and got software that actually worked, as in came with everything installed. Instead of having to buy this and download that on your computer and then run a server to get it to the phone.

It may have gotten better. Is it turn key now, where people can just do everything you listed directly on the phone?

If it is anything like it used to be, it's really not something I can recommend to people.

Anki could be better and easier to use, but it's nothing major. It's about 3 steps to get it working and you'll be studying in 5 minutes. You certainly don't need to run a server on your desktop, but you do need to download decks using the desktop app and sync to your phone.

Seriously though, every method you can use to learn a language requires some figuring out. Is any language learning system turn-key? None that I'm aware of. Maybe something like duolingo, but they don't have English >Japanese yet. Even if you take a class, you need to match your schedule, drive there and find the right class. If you're studying from a textbook, you need to order online and figure out how to effectively study - probably using some flashcards if not anki. It seems like you may have learned from your girlfriend, but girlfriends are complicated too!

I agree, some of anki's adjustments are difficult to understand what they do, but the default settings work reasonably well out of the box. They certainly work better than the decks of flashcards I used to carry around in my pockets and requires less set-up.

kapalama Wrote:Assuming someone does not know what any of those things mean, or how to set them up and use them, is there a system that is more turn-key? For people pressed for time, being able to jump right in and not do any setup is a worth money.

I'm curious now. Based on some previous posts, you seem to have learned reasonably well without following the same methods as a lot of self-learners. How did you learn?

kapalama Wrote:So if people don't want to spend hours fiddling with configuring software, they do not have the, what, mental ability?, patience? to learn a language? That's silly and slightly offensive.

People were just buying the RTK book to burn for heat for the 30 years it was on sale before Anki? Nintendo DS has no language software? No one else is selling already setup programs?

It's just silly. Some people think updating to the newest system of whatever and then fighting with it makes sense. Some people don't. If the goal is to save time, then the time saving system cannot take hours to set up, with an uncertain promise of working in the end. Some'd rather spend time studying. Beta testing someone else software for them is a turn-on for many people. Some people don't like it. Many people studying languages need it for work, and any time not studying or working is wasted money. (He said, wasting time arguing on a forum…. )

I have no idea how Anki on the iPhone/iPod works now. It used to be a major, major headache, where you had to run a server on a desktop computer just to load decks on to an iPhone. I bought the software, fought with it for a couple of weeks, and then just took it off the phone, and got software that actually worked, as in came with everything installed. Instead of having to buy this and download that on your computer and then run a server to get it to the phone.

It may have gotten better. Is it turn key now, where people can just do everything you listed directly on the phone?

If it is anything like it used to be, it's really not something I can recommend to people.

Steve Kaufman is one example, but I don't know what level his chinese and japanese are and how much time he spent to reach his level, but he actually do what I said in my previous post: hanzi/kanji study (with paper flashcard, but better use an srs like koohii), and then a lot of reading and listening.

What do you think about Nayr's Core Deck? I heard it's newer than the core ones and has some different words based on different frequency lists?

I also heard about his newest project, followup to core 5k do you suggest to wait for it or start with other decks, as I'm gonna finish RTK finally soon, but I don't want to have Anki bloated with different decks. I'd prefer to have it all organised into one, use one for vocab.

I was also wondering about Nayr's Core Deck...I wanted to use that one (about to go on a vocab tear) but it seems like there isn't an easy way to sort it in an optimized i + 1 way like there is with the optimized core decks. And that might be the sole deciding factor as to which deck I will be using.... :/

Quick question for the experts here please.

I've been studying for a few years now and I would like gauge my progress by setting some realistic goals to reach the N1 by starting with the N5.

Any advice on what books are recognized as being the standard these days to purchase? I would be all for online resources as well, just feeling like I need to push myself a bit more and set some goals.

Thank you in advance.

This book is a good wrap-up of everything you should know after beginner-level Japanese:
短期集中初級日本語文法総まとめポイント20　ISBN: 978-7-88319-328-8

The Kanzen Master (完全マスター) books are generally good. They're published by 3-A, who also publishes Minna no Nihongo, which is a very good textbook series, IMO. Generally, I've had good experiences with 3-A books.

Also, as you get higher in level, look for the ドリル＆ドリル series. I think those start at N2 or so?

If you can find the OLD Kanzen Master 3級 grammar book (it's a little red book) for a decent price, snag it. It's a really really good review book, but now that it's out of print, it's stupid expensive. (They may have a new version now that's just as good, it would be an N4 grammar book.)

Try the practice tests on the JLPT official website, too. They're a good way to find out how much progress you've made, and will give you an idea of what to expect on the real thing.

@rich_f Thank you sir, much appreciated.

No problem. Here's a link to the old Kanzen Master 3級 grammar book. It's only JPY 1525 at Amazon Japan.
http://amzn.to/1N94uNS

And here's a link to their N4 Grammar book, it's JPY 1296:
http://amzn.to/1f6Kiyh

I can't vouch for the N4 book, but I'd imagine it's just as good as the old 3級, and it should cover roughly the same material as well as get you ready for N4. There are N5 books floating around, but rather than getting a JLPT book for N5, I'd get a practice test for N5 instead, and then use normal materials to prep for it. There's not a whole lot you need to know to pass N5 that you can't already find in normal texts. Where it starts to get harder is after N5, when some textbooks start to fail at keeping up with the JLPT's scope.

yogert909 Wrote:I'm curious now. Based on some previous posts, you seem to have learned reasonably well without following the same methods as a lot of self-learners. How did you learn?

Massive immersion. I spent, for instance, 8 hours talking with customers and co-workers today, and none of it was in English. I don't speak English at home. At work, it's cold approaching strangers, so I have to get the pronunciation right, and the approach right to properly engage without appearing too Japanese, nor too 'not Japanese'. Japanese on vacation want to laugh, and want to feel interesting, so I have a quiver of approaches to accomplish those things, learned by trying out whatever 芸人 taught me.

yogert909 Wrote:Anki could be better and easier to use, but it's nothing major. It's about 3 steps to get it working and you'll be studying in 5 minutes. You certainly don't need to run a server on your desktop, but you do need to download decks using the desktop app and sync to your phone.

Seriously though, every method you can use to learn a language requires some figuring out. Is any language learning system turn-key? None that I'm aware of. Maybe something like duolingo, but they don't have English >Japanese yet. Even if you take a class, you need to match your schedule, drive there and find the right class. If you're studying from a textbook, you need to order online and figure out how to effectively study - probably using some flashcards if not anki. It seems like you may have learned from your girlfriend, but girlfriends are complicated too!

I agree, some of anki's adjustments are difficult to understand what they do, but the default settings work reasonably well out of the box. They certainly work better than the decks of flashcards I used to carry around in my pockets and requires less set-up.

So what's the process to move decks to the phone? Could my mom do it? If not, then it's a flaw in the program..There are plenty of programs Mom can use right now just by download and go.

Your mom probably cannot do it. Your mom probably cannot make a post on this forum. This is not a "your mom" joke. I know my mom couldn't do these things.

It's harder than easy. I think it is an intermediate-level task. Anyone that can follow simple instructions can do it.

Android: Get Ankidroid (free). Consider making a donation to the developer because this is donationware.
iOS: Get Anki, it's $20.
You also need to get the Anki desktop application which is free.

Then you need to:
1) Make online Anki account
2) Install Anki
3) Download the shared deck you want - For complete beginners, the Kana deck is best.
4) Sync local account with online account
5) Install mobile application
6) Sync mobile account with online account

You can get a tutorial for how to do each thing with Google searches quite easily. All of those things are intermediate-level. Installing Anki is the only step I'd consider easy, but only because it's likely that you have some experience installing free software (otherwise it'd be intermediate level too). For #5, be sure to include "mobile" and the name of the application you are using (Anki or Ankidroid) in the terms when you search.

If you've grown up in this technological age and can't figure out how to use Anki, you've got some bigger problems than trying to learn Japanese... now back to the original post. My study method:

Did RTK but forgot most of it and stopped reviewing

Went straight into native material and put sentences in anki: Manga, stories, news, anime, games, etc.

I look up grammar as I go. I don't study it systematically.

Recently been transitioning into monolingual.

It's been working so far.