Hoping to get some advice from those far more experienced than I....

I've been working my way through the core 10k optimized deck (production), but then lately I have seen things like the Nayr 5k and the core 6k

If you've completed the 10k, would your future self tell your past self to do it, or would you give different advice?

I used core 2k/6k, because there wasn't a 10k deck at the time, but if I was doing it today I'd do the 10k deck instead. It likely would have saved me some time studying JLPT N2 vocabulary, since I think a lot more of it is likely in the 10k deck. I liked the voices on the audio tracks for 2k/6k, but 10k has the benefit of more vocabulary words, which is very useful.

Well it all depends on your learning style, if you're comfortable with the core series, going at a good pace and want to go for it you can shoot for the 10k and it'll bring you to a good starting point. But it's also perfectly viable to ditch core after a certain number of thousands (as low as 2k), just dive into relatively simple reading/listening materials and learn more vocab from there. In the end these vocab lists are just tools and they can be effectively used in a multitude of ways, what matters most is what you think works best based on your experience so far. If something's bothering you with your current approach it may be a good time to start changing some things and see how that goes.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Yes, but I think vocab is better acquired and retained through reading once you've reached around 5-6k words. Nonetheless, I'd still finish the core 10k just to memorize the readings and basic definitions. Once you're at a high-intermediate/advanced stage, you can often quickly and easily guess the meaning of a word by context or through the meanings of the individual characters. But most of the time you can only memorize a reading through practice, and reviewing flashcards is the most efficient way to practice.

Yes, because despite the fact that I remember new words I encounter in context more easily, word lists are very useful for getting the most essential vocabulary down.

I think I reached 4000 sentences or so.... but in hindsight I say definitely go to native materials as soon as possible. Things like rikaichan are a big help for that. SRS is helpful but like training wheels its something to grow out of

I only went to 6k. I think its plenty far enough from that sort of deck, and actually, I might have even preferred to stop at 2k.
I'm not yet consuming various types of material at such a high rate that I even encounter a lot of the words that I learned through core 6k. And even when I do encounter them sometimes, its in a different sort of scenario, and I find out that I sort of never really understood how the word was used to begin with. So I would have been just as well off to wait until I encountered it a few times in natural media.

There is definitely some benefit from studying vocabulary decks like this to build up your vocab, but I am inclined to think that at somewhere between 2k and 6k you are better off just learning the words that you actually encounter, rather than just learning words for the sake of learning words.

repdetect2 Wrote:Hoping to get some advice from those far more experienced than I....

I've been working my way through the core 10k optimized deck (production), but then lately I have seen things like the Nayr 5k and the core 6k

If you've completed the 10k, would your future self tell your past self to do it, or would you give different advice?

You mention production but I think you'll find recognition goes a lot smoother for any size deck. I've done production for about 1k words and then switched to recognition and like it a lot better. I might go back to production at some point, but it would be more along the lines of fill in the missing word, and it would only be words that are long mature recognition words.

I never got on with vocabulary decks at all and started learning words as I encountered them even before I was through basic grammar.

Obviously that depends on one's own learning style, but one thing I have heard a lot is that people get through a lot of core vocabulary and still find they can't read anything without looking up two or three words per sentence. Learning vocabulary pertinent to what you are reading (and starting with relatively simple material), in turn helps you ingest faster and makes learning words much easier and more natural because you encounter them in a real context.

That is my approach, but some people really like core decks, so I guess we all learn differently and the thing is to find what works best for you.

Again, thanks to everyone who took the time out of your busy lives to reply I'm taking notes and have mind a lot of new ideas to try!

CureDolly Wrote:I never got on with vocabulary decks at all and started learning words as I encountered them even before I was through basic grammar.

Obviously that depends on one's own learning style, but one thing I have heard a lot is that people get through a lot of core vocabulary and still find they can't read anything without looking up two or three words per sentence. Learning vocabulary pertinent to what you are reading (and starting with relatively simple material), in turn helps you ingest faster and makes learning words much easier and more natural because you encounter them in a real context.

That is my approach, but some people really like core decks, so I guess we all learn differently and the thing is to find what works best for you.

As CureDolly said. After a failed attempt at Core10000 I restarted recently with a vocab-deck, mining anime subtitles. And, while I add words, I double-check in a frequency list where these words are in terms of frequency, and I remove them from the list (this is only because I like to track how many "common words" I still don't know). And I've seen most of the word I encounter in anime are the most frequent ones. So you could just stick with a simple anime, news article or anything, add all the words you don't know and with time you will end up anyway knowing the most frequent words. Because if they are called frequent words is because you will encounter them often in native media xD
This with the added benefit that after you add the words to Anki and you study them, you are able to understand the anime, article, or anithing from which you mined those words.

If you do Core10k instead you will encounter many words which are not so common because that list is based on 90' newspapers. So, ad CureDolly said, you could easily end up knowing 3k or 5k words and still you could be not able to read a manga.

For example, based on what you want to read, the word "下記" could be considered frequent or uncommon, and it's just one example.

I'll throw my hat in as someone who only completed half the core10k.

Use the core10k to learn contextless words. It's excellent for those indisputable objects like "apple", "weekend"... things you would find in a picture dictionary.

Once you start to break into the intermediate phase, it will become less useful for you. This is because of two reasons:

The first is that the english keywords do not illuminate the nuance of words that need context, and their sentences do not readily point you to the situation you would use the word. Take this example:

沸かす : boil, excite : Please boil the water.
煮る: boil, cook : I'm boiling some beans now.
沸騰: boiling : The water boiled.
ゆでる: boil : I'm boiling vegetables now.

Perhaps the perfect context to differentiate those four cards is actually encoded within the sentences, but I find it easier to learn the context from native media and Subs2SRS.

The second point is that the pronunciation of the sentences is artificial. If you can understand the core10k voice actors easily but not television actors, it's time to move on. I've shown the core decks to my Japanese friends and they almost always have to stifle a laugh upon first hearing how artificial the voice actors pronounce their Japanese.

datrukup Wrote:Use the core10k to learn contextless words.

ya if you can do it without burning out, do it. 100%. core is tough but totally worth it.

studying japanese you can get grammar and simple convo figured out after a year or so, but then you hit this wall of all the words you dont know. you can't read a simple novel or watch tv shows. there are a ton of words in japanese... more than english.

you need a super-basic understanding of a whole lot of vocab, and if you have the patience and stamina, core10k is the most efficient way to blow through that vocab wall.

you learn words in a way that is hard to use them naturally, but when you see them in context you know what they mean and you become functionally literate. this is the beginning of fluency. good luck.

I think that core10k was based on an updated word list, not newspapers? I could be wrong though.

If you're concerned about not getting the most frequent words/readings first, you could try benkyo.co/iikanji.

Personally I prefer anki's customisability over benkyo, but it's up to you.

ktcgx Wrote:I think that core10k was based on an updated word list, not newspapers? I could be wrong though.

As I recall, core 10k is just core 6k with an additional 4k words added to the end. I forget where the additional words come from, but the first 6k words are rumored come from a newspaper frequency list.

I've recently been comparing the frequency of words between different corpora and noticed that there's not as much overlap as I'd hoped. For instance, if you were to finish core 6k, you would know less than 60% of the words in NHK easy - With other corpora, the coverage is even less. However, if you were to learn the top 6k words in any in any single corpus, you would have over 80% coverage within that corpus. TL;DNR Newspapers use different words than dramas or anime, so if you are anxious to watch anime, study anime words.

[Zgarbas]

I did 6k and then moved on to coreplus and other decks, not really following a linear source.
I'd do it again; it seemed silly to build up such a large vocab at times but I'm definitely reaping the benefits. I struggle with context sometimes in production, but not as often as you'd think; and it definitely pays off as far as comprehension is concerned. The fact that I didn't focus too much on mining means that I got a pretty general vocab, which is great; oddly enough, the words that I distinctly recall learning from mined sources get picked on at times as sounding either too manga-esque, or too fancy (mined from novels)

yogert909 Wrote:I've recently been comparing the frequency of words between different corpora and noticed that there's not as much overlap as I'd hoped. For instance, if you were to finish core 6k, you still wouldn't even know 40% of the words in NHK easy - With other corpora, the coverage is even less. However, if you were to learn the top 6k words in any in any single corpus, you would have over 80% coverage within that corpus. TL;DNR Newspapers use different words than dramas or anime, so if you are anxious to watch anime, study anime words.

Yes, this is really the key point for me. Whatever it is you want to read/watch, build your "core" from that. It will be self-reinforcing and much more satisfying - as well as far less frustrating than learning an absract core and then realizing how limited it is in real applications.

Of course you probably want to end up with a more rounded vocabulary, but building a usable base in one area is a good way to start with that anyway.

A little note on frequency that may be useful is that the (P) ratings in Jisho and Rikai apparently come from a selection of newspapers. However Rikaisama also includes a frequency number (turned off by default I think) that is derived from 5,000-ish novels.

I look at both in deciding whether to learn a word with, in my case, more weight on the number (as I am less interested in newspaper vocabulary). Generally I will learn any word I encounter with a frequency of under 10,000 unless it looks fairly currently-useless to me. I also learn words I am likely to encounter again in the series I am watching (even if the word isn't generally frequent, why waste encounters?) I do learn other words of much lower frequency too for a variety of reasons.

And I don't add everything to Anki. Anki is a tool, not a religion. If I think I can ingest a word without Anki I try to do so. That being said, I am still quite a heavy Anki user currently. If anyone is interested I have written about my approach to acquiring core vocabulary here.

Sorry. I just realized that I wrote awkwardly.

Quote:For instance, if you were to finish core 6k, you still wouldn't even know 40% of the words in NHK easy..

What I meant was there would be 40% of the total that you would not know - not that you would only know 40%. Nonetheless, the message is still the same.

Most of the Core dissenters are overlooking a few things. Firstly, that everyone's sole purpose for learning Japanese is to watch anime or read manga. Even if the words are derived from newspapers, go read a typical news article in English. Are there any words you don't know? Probably not. I'm sure the same could be said for Japanese people reading Japanese news articles. Thus, those words are important, whether or not they come up in your preferred media. No, you might not see 証券 in Naruto, but it's still good to know the word if you ever plan on living in Japan.

Secondly, the Core provides a chance to learn the readings of the most common kanji in a controlled setting. Just like RTK, it's about dividing and conquering. Trying to remember a kanji's reading, the meaning of the word, and understanding a sentence all at once can be difficult. Knowing readings, even if you don't know the definition, can alleviate a lot of that burden. For instance, I encountered 取り押さえる today. No, I didn't know that meant to "capture" or "arrest", but knowing the readings and the general sense of the kanji helped me retain the new information for more than a minute.

Thirdly, no one ever promised that the Core would make you fluent. Yes, you'll still have to look up words when reading, but only needing to look up an average of several words a sentence rather than ten makes a difference. I knew around two thousand Japanese words before starting the Core, and I can say from experience that knowing four thousand more makes a huge impact.

Lastly, I didn't feel comfortable reading native material until I reached five thousand words. The amount of new information in every sentence and slow pace was discouraging for me. I didn’t find any sort of enjoyment or fulfillment in it, so I stopped. Now, having finished the Core, I no longer feel that way. If you had the patience to dive into native material after learning kana, finishing RTK, or reading Tae Kim's guide, good for you. I wish I could have started a lot sooner, too. But there are plenty of people like me, and telling them that doing the Core is wrong or a waste of time is not helpful.

TurtleBear Wrote:Most of the Core dissenters are overlooking a few things. Firstly, that everyone's sole purpose for learning Japanese is to watch anime or read manga. Even if the words are derived from newspapers, go read a typical news article in English. Are there any words you don't know? Probably not. I'm sure the same could be said for Japanese people reading Japanese news articles. Thus, those words are important, whether or not they come up in your preferred media. No, you might not see 証券 in Naruto, but it's still good to know the word if you ever plan on living in Japan.

I don't think everyone's sole purpose in learning Japanese is to watch anime or read manga. Mine certainly isn't. If it is, then Core is definitely not a good idea. But if it isn't, core still might not be a good idea. It does rather depend how you learn best and how much time you want to spend "learning" rather than doing.

It also depends on your tolerance for the difficult early stages of organic learning. Yours was clearly low. That isn't a criticism at all. I didn't have much tolerance for Core decks. People work differently and learn differently.

A lot of people think that if they do Core up to a certain point they will be able to read real Japanese things. "How many Core words do I need to know to read manga?" is a common question. As you say, that isn't the case. No amount of Core actually puts you in a position to read manga.

None of this means you shouldn't do Core if that's the way you want to work. People work differently. But I think everyone should be aware - as you clearly are - thar there is no "magic number" that will make you literate.

I absolutely agree that one wants to end up knowing most of the words in a newspaper. What I don't agree with personally is that those words are a good place to start.

I think it is better to start with simpler things and work up in a more natural way, building vocabulary organically.

I can also see a strong objection to that in that some people don't want to start with simpler material, and can't enjoy things that are accessible to children. If that is the case I can see that the methods I use and advocate pose a problem.

People absolutely learn differently. I would certainly not say that Core is wrong for everyone. Clearly it was right for you. I do think it is important that if a person does choose Core she should do it with her eyes open, knowing that there is no magic Core Number that is going to make you able to read real-life Japanese.

TurtleBear Wrote:...

Well said!

CureDolly Wrote:What I don't agree with personally is that those words are a good place to start.

There's a point that everyone seems to forget to mention.

You've stressed and I think a few others have stressed the point of "building your own deck" and while this does have merits on its own, it's still time consuming. The Core words may not be the best out there and everyone can take issue with different cards and sentences in the deck. But at the end of the day, you are still going to see many of those words at some point, not to mention they are still part of the language.

The Core deck is there. It's been made. If you can do Core and not bore yourself, then you can acquire 6k-10k words faster than you could mine, create, and review your own cards.

CureDolly Wrote:I don't think everyone's sole purpose in learning Japanese is to watch anime or read manga. Mine certainly isn't. If it is, then Core is definitely not a good idea. [...]

A lot of people think that if they do Core up to a certain point they will be able to read real Japanese things. "How many Core words do I need to know to read manga?" is a common question. As you say, that isn't the case. No amount of Core actually puts you in a position to read manga.

For the nth time, those things are untrue. I've been watching anime with J-subs for a year now (and considering anime and manga are more or less the same material), and except for maybe 10% all the core 2k/6k words are used. Why? Because core vocab are really, really frequent words. I'd even go as far as saying about half of 10k have already showed up in shows I've watched. I don't know why you seem to keep forgetting this fact. I get you didn't do core, but the least you could do before criticising it is get a word list of it to see what is inside.

Also another reminder while we're at it, core 2k/6k isn't based on newspapers. Again you keep implying core is only good for newspaper reading. Nobody knows on what it's based, but since iknow got their corpus from CJK institute, and in all likelihood those are not dumb people, and because they were making learning material, they didn't used only newspaper. CJK has access to tons of corpora, of course they wouldn't limit themselves. It's a different story for 10k though, if one is made from newspapers it's probably this one. Then again, as long as the words are frequent, in a way it doesn't matter what the source is.

EratiK Wrote:I've been watching anime with J-subs for a year now (and considering anime and manga are more or less the same material), and except for maybe 10% all the core 2k/6k words are used. Why? Because core vocab are really, really frequent words. I'd even go as far as saying about half of 10k have already showed up in shows I've watched.

I highly doubt 90% of core6k regularly shows up in anime. As I mentioned earlier, I've been comparing wordlists of various corpora and the overlap is a lot less than I expected. It's a project that I'm still working on when I have time between work and studying (I'm still studying core actually..) so I hesitate to throw precise numbers out there. But I will say that I've compared core 6k against the several thousand subtitles on dramanote and there's not one episode that core covers even 60% of unique words. The average coverage seems to be in the low 40% range.

As I mentioned, I'm still studying core 6k but my little experiments with wordlists are making me consider adding more native material into my study and focusing my study to specific works. Not that core words aren't common, useful words and I intend to learn every one of them eventually. But I'm studying Japanese in order to use Japanese. I've studied hundreds of hours and I'd like to use Japanese NOW if possible, not next year.

This question for me seems to boil down to enjoyment. Clearly it would be useful to know every word of core10k. But wouldn't it be more enjoyable if I studied 2k words and could understand every word of an anime or manga or news article? If I have an electronic text, it's not hard to use a few tools like cb's japanese text analysis tool to make myself a core norwegian wood, or a core totoro, or a core whatever. I don't know how many unique words there are in the average anime movie - but it's got to be around 2k, manga even less, and a news article, a few hundred if that. What if I study those words and then enjoy Japanese a lot sooner? Then learn some more words and enjoy another book or movie? I'd still learn 10k common words, but it would be much more enjoyable.

I haven't tried this yet and like I said, I'm still studying core... But I'm getting a little disillusioned with core, so we'll see..