Does anyone know a place to learn advanced Japanese vocabulary? For example there are lists in English for SAT, is there anything like that in Japanese?

do u mean JPLT N1 possibly?

No JLPT is beginner vocabulary. I mean advanced vocabulary, like advanced for natives.

JLPT N1 vocab is fairly advanced. I don't know of many lists lying around for high end vocab but you may want to try searching for things like University Entrance Exam study guides, study guides for the Kanken, etc. Alternatively, you could just read newspaper editorials and novels and rake in the words you find.

I did come up with this on a quick search:
http://novita-study.com/738/
I feel like most of this is on the JLPT, though.

Try 漢検 準二級 and above.

http://happyrice.jp
Go to the settings page and change it to 2級 or above. It gets into spelling bee territory after a while though, by which I mean the chances of you seeing the words in everyday life drastically decreases. A more useful way would be to learn vocabulary for specific fields of interest, which you already know in English. E.g. if you like gardening, programming, basketball, etc learn how to talk about them in Japanese.

If you're in japan pick up the one of those 国語力 books you see at コンビニ specifically looking for the word 語彙 somewhere in the cover.　　If you're not in Japan, look at trying to get できる大人の日本語大全

Bokusenou Wrote:http://happyrice.jp
Go to the settings page and change it to 2級 or above. It gets into spelling bee territory after a while though, by which I mean the chances of you seeing the words in everyday life drastically decreases.

Some are really 一目瞭然 though:

vtx4848 Wrote:No JLPT is beginner vocabulary. I mean advanced vocabulary, like advanced for natives.

Why don't you fan out your tail a little wider and puff that chest a little more? Calling all the vocab in JLPT "beginner" is a bit of a stretch, no? Sure there is a lot more to Japanese than that and if you plan to enter a Japanese university and compete on the same level as the average native-Japanese student you will need to learn more advanced vocabulary, but anyone who's passed JLPT 1 is anything but a beginner.

Jawful Wrote:

vtx4848 Wrote:No JLPT is beginner vocabulary. I mean advanced vocabulary, like advanced for natives.

Why don't you fan out your tail a little wider and puff that chest a little more? Calling all the vocab in JLPT "beginner" is a bit of a stretch, no? Sure there is a lot more to Japanese than that and if you plan to enter a Japanese university and compete on the same level as the average native-Japanese student you will need to learn more advanced vocabulary, but anyone who's passed JLPT 1 is anything but a beginner.

Sorry if you're insulted by my choice of words, but an adult Japanese native would be labeled an idiot if they did not know JLPT vocabulary. It is beginner vocabulary in that sense. Either way it is far from what one would called "advanced", I think it only covered 6000 or 10,000 words or something when the average educated adult knows around 40,000.

I hear dictionaries have lists of vocabulary.

vtx4848 Wrote:Sorry if you're insulted by my choice of words, but an adult Japanese native would be labeled an idiot if they did not know JLPT vocabulary. It is beginner vocabulary in that sense. Either way it is far from what one would called "advanced", I think it only covered 6000 or 10,000 words or something when the average educated adult knows around 40,000.

So you're saying there are two levels of Japanese, beginner and native?

The N1 covers as many as 18,000 words. And there are many words that are rarely used or only used in written contexts. I think you'd be surprised at how many "idiot" Japanese people don't know some of the words. I'm not saying that N1 = Native. But certainly isn't beginner either. Grow up.

While the N1 isn't "beginner level" per se, It's true that it is still far below the amount of vocab that real native speakers possess, so I do think that it is good to continue with vocab learning even beyond the JLPT. The question is how to go about this.

Short answer: If you're looking for vocabulary lists above N1 then Kanken (２級）is a good place to go. A lot of the stuff coming out at this level will stymie natives unless given with a good deal of context. However after N1, it's probably best just to read (or watch) things you are interested in and pick up this specialized vocabulary within context.

Long Answer: Once you've finished with the JLPT, at this point you might want to ask yourself what your goal really is in learning new vocab? Is it to impress natives with the size of your vocabulary? If you're just "name dropping" random 四字熟語　without any context then I think natives will be less impressed and more likely to revert to typical「日本語お上手ですね」 responses. They might act "impressed" but I don't think they well be so in any meaningful way. Showing off like that isn't very "Japanese" in the first place.

If your goal is to actually communicate better with Japanese people and go beyond superficial compliments then its probably better to work on improving the vocabulary you already "know". It's amazing how long it takes to master even so called "basic" vocabulary. you may already know the basic meaning of a verb like　「取る」 but knowing when and in what context to use it as opposed to its many synonyms 「受ける」「持つ」etc.　is something that takes a good deal longer and can't be easily summed up in a flashcard or two. Having a firm grasp of collocations and natural usage is much more likely to impress people in the long run than being able to say "I can write 3000 Kanji" or "I have　漢検２級”.

AdmiralKelvinator Wrote:While the N1 isn't "beginner level" per se, It's true that it is still far below the amount of vocab that real native speakers possess, so I do think that it is good to continue with vocab learning even beyond the JLPT. The question is how to go about this.

Now this I agree with wholly and would have thought much more of the OP if he had put it like this. I know there's a lot more to do if you are looking to rival native speakers but at N1 or even N2 for some, you are able to live and work in an all Japanese environment with little difficulty. That is a far cry from beginner. I didn't appreciate the "looking down the nose" answer he gave. And I fully appreciate if his vocab knowlege is far beyond JLPT. Hats off. Just don't be a dick about it.

Good post Admiral.

Jawful Wrote:Now this I agree with wholly and would have thought much more of the OP if he had put it like this. I know there's a lot more to do if you are looking to rival native speakers but at N1 or even N2 for some, you are able to live and work in an all Japanese environment with little difficulty. That is a far cry from beginner. I didn't appreciate the "looking down the nose" answer he gave. And I fully appreciate if his vocab knowlege is far beyond JLPT. Hats off. Just don't be a dick about it.

Good post Admiral.

Nah, Admiral's posts are beginner level. I've seen native Japanese children make better posts than that.

vtx4848 Wrote:No JLPT is beginner vocabulary. I mean advanced vocabulary, like advanced for natives.

I agree with vtx. I'd guess that to pass JLPT1, the average westerner has been studying for 10 years or more, or lives in Japan.
If you are after 'advanced' Japanese, then you might start with learning how natives use the language. I seriously doubt you'll ever hear one be so dismissive of a task that takes a decade to complete.

The problem OP is that JLPT N1 is the exact equivalent of SAT, that is it's a thing asked to enrol in college. Misunderstandings that follow come from that unfortunate comparison.

Jawful Wrote:The N1 covers as many as 18,000 words.

Where does that number come from? I've always thought is was 10,000 words.

AussieTrroper Wrote:I agree with vtx. I'd guess that to pass JLPT1, the average westerner has been studying for 10 years or more, or lives in Japan.

10 years for N1, what? Pretty sure the average is 4-5 years (I'm basing that on the European advanced education system were N2 is 3 years (BD)).

EratiK Wrote:

AussieTrroper Wrote:I agree with vtx. I'd guess that to pass JLPT1, the average westerner has been studying for 10 years or more, or lives in Japan.

10 years for N1, what? Pretty sure the average is 4-5 years (I'm basing that on the European advanced education system were N2 is 3 years (BD)).

It took me more than 10 years to pass N1, and I'm not afraid to admit it. Most of the Japanese learners I know in real life have been learning for 10 years or more and haven't managed to pass N1.

I expect it could be done quicker if living in Japan (I'm not, never have) or studying full time. But who can study a language full time for 10 years, other than a small child? People have to live.

Not a single person I've met who started from scratch and did a degree + masters in Japanese passed N1 at the end of it.

I know people on this forum do it sometimes but it is the exception and not the rule.

But anyway, back on topic - The best way to pick up advanced vocabulary in Japanese is the same as in any other language: Read. And when I say read, I don't mean manga and light novels (although we all have to start somewhere). Well read people always have a much larger vocabulary than people who aren't, and no amount of vocab lists will ever change that. The only thing you will learn from lists of advanced and obscure vocab is how to use a word that most native speakers have never heard of in a completely inappropriate context that makes you sound like an idiot.

If 173k words is 'advanced' enough for you, you could always try my JMdict deck, which nobody has shown the slightest interest in

EratiK Wrote:The problem OP is that JLPT N1 is the exact equivalent of SAT, that is it's a thing asked to enrol in college. Misunderstandings that follow come from that unfortunate comparison.

If there is a misunderstanding, that's where it lies. Because while it it is just the beginning if your end goal is to go to uni at a Japanese school and study beside native speakers, then yes, it's only a first step. Higher education in any language requires a pretty high level understanding of that language. But even with that being the case, N1 itself isn't "beginner" level Japanese. It's still at worst upper-intermediate.

Quote:

Jawful Wrote:The N1 covers as many as 18,000 words.

Where does that number come from? I've always thought is was 10,000 words.

Honestly, I'm just reporting what I read elsewhere as they don't give an official number anymore. 10,000 was the old １級 number officially given by the JLPT organization, but since N1 they don't give specifics. I tried to find an actual source but there's nothing that can be taken as concrete proof of it. Perhaps we're all just copying each other at this point... If so I apologize for joining it. Anyway, I read it at the following places:

http://jlptbootcamp.com/2010/12/jlpt-n1-...mate-test/
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9044
http://www.jlptstudy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9187
http://shop.whiterabbitjapan.com/product...h-training

AussieTrroper Wrote:I agree with vtx. I'd guess that to pass JLPT1, the average westerner has been studying for 10 years or more, or lives in Japan.

I'm not sure what you mean. You agree it's beginner vocab but that it takes 10 years to pass it. So it takes 10 years to still be at beginner level?

Stansfield123 Wrote:Nah, Admiral's posts are beginner level. I've seen native Japanese children make better posts than that.

Sorry, I'm not sure if this is a joke or what, but I didn't mention Admiral's level so it kinda went over my head. I was just agreeing with his assessment of the test.

@Jawful
Ah thanks, I really wasn't up to date. I wish that was written in more obvious places (editing wikipedia now). 10k words seemed a bit low to be honest, so 15k would have been in my range of expectations. 18k was a bit of a shocker.

@NickT
I respect your own experience of course, but we were talking averages, and by "average westerner" I understood "average western learner", who for me is a guy in college taking Japanese classes. They were the majority when I took JLPT, and no I don't personally know people with N1 irl, but I know people with N2 (Japanese language students) and if it took them 3 years to reach, I doubt they'd need another 7 years to reach N1.

EratiK Wrote:@NickT
I respect your own experience of course, but we were talking averages, and by "average westerner" I understood "average western learner", who for me is a guy in college taking Japanese classes. They were the majority when I took JLPT, and no I don't personally know people with N1 irl, but I know people with N2 (Japanese language students) and if it took them 3 years to reach, I doubt they'd need another 7 years to reach N1.

If we're talking averages, the average amount of time it takes the average Western learner of Japanese to pass N1 is forever, i.e. never. Only a very small percentage of Westerners who attempt to learn Japanese ever pass N1. Even if you take the Westerners who successfully passed N2 as your starting population I would bet (based on my experience of knowing many such people) only a small proportion ever go to pass N1. Certainly less than half.

Perhaps if you take just the people who have already passed N1, and ask them how long it took, it might come in at under 10 years. I can believe that. But I still doubt it would average 4-5 years. It can be done, but it is rare.

Anyway, good luck with your studies - Let me know when you have passed N1 and I will buy you a beer. Hell, do it in less than 5 years from scratch and I will throw in a complimentary plane ticket to Japan :-)

I can see undergraduate study (with little or no self study) not preparing someone for the N1 but you say you know people who got masters degrees... in Japanese? and couldn't pass N1? Are they just handing out degrees like candy these days?

Also, just a friendly warning, if that beer+plane ticket offer stands for everyone else too then you owe a lot of people beer and plane tickets.

I failed N1 twice, yet I took my masters degree in Japan and all my classes were in japanese. The stuff I had to work with was mostly written in japanese (sometimes we also got english docs).
I chose english to write my thesis because its a "global" subject and because it's just easier to write in english.

I just barely passed N1 in 2 years. 103/190

My Chinese friend managed in about 14 months. Learning a new writing system does not put westerners at years of disadvantage. It's just that the majority of Westerners are doing this as a hobby only semi-seriously instead of to get ahead in life/business. There's little economic motivation for westerners in comparison.