Hi guys,

I've after finishing RTK + 6k core + some sub2srs vocab farming, I decided to start reading LN.

then I found the free web novel that looks promising called "Tate no yusha no nariagari" and decided to read it. I tried not to save the vocab too much and instead tried to make sense of the unknown vocab from the context. I noticed that the difficulty is somewhat hard and I took around 40minutes to read just 1 chapter (around 3500 characters), and this is after reading the translated version first. So far I've read up to 10 chapters but the reading speed isn't increasing.

assuming one word = 2.5 characters then my reading speed if roughly 3500/2.5/40 = 35 words per minute !! yet it only took me 5-10 minutes to read the translated chapter.

the slow speed is so frustrating that it took half the joy of reading away. When do you guys start to notice that reading become more comfortable? what's your reading speed like?

The biggest struggle is the beginning and you just have to force yourself to be patient. I never measured my reading speed but it's still not very good but much better than when I started. Pretty much everyone else I've asked who actually reads stuff in Japanese has the same experience of a really hard struggle initially, and then after forcing themselves to read a much more comfortable time.

I probably saw a noticeable improvement in reading speed after two light novels (I had to Anki quite a few basic words that weren't covered in Core6k).

I see, so it's still a long way until being able to read more comfortably. Also , did you mean two books of Light novel or the complete series of two novels ?
Thanks for the answer by the way. thinking optimistically, it means I have a lot of room to improve on

Hmmm, I had a somewhat rough time reading two light novels at 5-10 minutes per page. Particularly rough pages where many lookups were needed to understand what was happening could take 20 minutes just for one page...
After two light novels I went back to reading manga, and while I hadn't really felt that I was improving while reading those books.... reading manga was now completely comfortable and easy. Almost as easy as reading in English until I hit an unknown word or expression to remind me that I really am reading a foreign language. On top of 30-40 volumes of manga, I also read the first two Harry Potter books in Japanese... these were pretty easy because I'm very familiar with the originals. Even if a word or structure might otherwise have been difficult, since I already knew what the meaning -should- be, it generally came pretty clear.
Anyway, with that behind me when I went to tackle light novels again, I found them pretty smooth going. I do a -lot- of lookups in the early pages of a new book, because authors tend use the same vocabulary repeatedly - and because correctly understanding the initial setting is very important to understanding the book as a whole. Once I'm a few chapters in, I drop off to only looking up words that really block my understanding, or words that are repeating a lot.
Unlike how I feel reading manga, I can't say reading novels is anything near as easy as reading in English, but it -does- feel smooth, and I'm not 'decoding' anymore. Sentences don't need to be puzzled out at all (unknown vocabulary can still be an issue of course), and the passages properly transform into mental images as I'm reading them. In other words it -feels- like reading not like studying, or decoding, or puzzle-solving.

I've been reading a lot of free web published novels too. They can be a little rougher than a professionally published light novel for a few reasons - obviously, no furigana. Of course, the furigana is usually only on the first instance anyway; looking up the word covers the gap mostly, except for kanji spellings that have multiple pronunciations. Inconsistency is a problem too ... in writing style with alternate spellings of the same word appearing (煩い、五月蝿い、五月蠅い、ウルサイ.... ) Sometimes this seems like it's trying to express something about tone of speech (a word will be spelled the same way when spoken by the same character), other times it seems like it's just random whim. I've also had characters names change the kanji they were spelled with halfway through a book. Events that happened earlier in the book described incorrectly later in the book. Words being clearly misused - as in, what the word -ought- to mean is obvious in context, but no dictionary has any meaning like that or any meaning that is even sensible in the context. Sometimes this seems to be the author's misunderstanding of a word (they keep misusing it the same way), other times it's just a typo of sorts (wrong kanji conversion of a homonym, or just a word that is phonetically similar to but not identical to the intended word). Various little things that are to be expected of an amateur work, but they can be a little more complicated to face when the work is in a foreign language.

myxoma Wrote:I see, so it's still a long way until being able to read more comfortably. Also , did you mean two books of Light novel or the complete series of two novels ?
Thanks for the answer by the way. thinking optimistically, it means I have a lot of room to improve on

Just two volumes; I mean I'm still not very good because I don't read very frequently (I should though)

EDIT: Also on the topic of manga since it was mentioned above, I actually completely skipped reading manga at all (not that I don't like manga). This is mostly a consequence of me wanting to add cards into anki faster and it was much, much faster to do that with digitized text editions of light novels.

It took me a few years to get comfortable. And there are still some books that give me a headache, so I'm still working at it. But generally, I don't have problems with LNs, unless they use a lot of chuuni language, which is kind of annoying to me.

When I was first starting to read, I tried reading a LN, and it almost killed me. Dropping down to easier stuff kept reading enjoyable and entertaining for me, while I learned how to read and build up speed.

Be aware of what's giving you trouble specifically. Are you nailing vocab (kanji), but getting the translation wrong? Then I'd go study grammar more. The stuff in hiragana can really throw you off.

Are you spending half your time looking up unknown words? Then I'd go bust out more vocab, and lower my reading level to something easier, like elementary-level novels (Aoi Tori Bunko) or shounen/shoujo manga (which is about the same level.)

Is that too hard? Then Doraemon, or Chibi Maruko-chan, or something else in the manga aimed at rugrats level.

There's also NHK Easy News, if you're into news. Or those graded readers everyone talks about.

Find a comfortable level, nail it, then move on to the next level. That's kind of how I did it, only with more floundering around.

Thanks for all the answer, guys ! It served me well as a guidance and motivation booster . I've finished reading Tae kim grammar guide, a bit of Jgram, and a bit of imabi. However, when the sentences contain lots of nuances then I do get confused at times but it's getting better (I think). Its a bit embarrassing to admit but Doraemon was my childhood manga XD.

I find that reading light novel or books will force me to improve in sentence structure break down the best because there is no visual aid, and instead relies on description .

I hate it when the web novel author decided to put the word in Kanji form even when Rikai-sama stated its uncommon though (or perhaps its not THAT uncommon) because those tye of kanji often weren't even in RTK. And a huge list of onomatopia kills me (I only know about ~250 from the public onomatopia deck) and I just glossed over them.

what's an example of chuuni language ????

I'm also reading NHK Easy News when I'm tired from reading novel.

Chuuni language would be something like 悪夜明崩石 and calling it "the stone that breaks the evil dawn" or somesuch. Basically, you clump together a bunch of kanji, give it a random reading b/c it sounds "cool." Chuuni refers to 中二病 ちゅうにびょう or "Second year of middle school syndrome," where kids like that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, some of them become authors and don't drop the habit.

You'll find it a lot in fantasy LNs, where there will be 5-10 kanji piled on top of each other, and it can really slow down reading.

WRT manga, I wouldn't worry too much about the visual info if you're just starting out. Focus on the text, and use the pictures as a hint to see if you got the meaning right while reading it. Yeah, the pictures can give a lot away if you get lazy with it. It's easy to do, and I'm as guilty as the next person of thinking I got the reading when I really got it from the art cues. Same problem with TV vs. radio.

I'd say most important is read whatever you're interested in, and feel like you can make progress in at a good pace. Whatever that is is a very individual thing. I can't stand looking up too much stuff, so I tend to read only a little bit above my level. Maybe that has slowed me down, but it has saved me a ton of frustration. Tradeoffs!

Most light novels are not a sane and sensible place to start reading. Core 6k is just not enough.

If you have access to physical books, there are plenty out there which are written at an easier level than what you're shooting for now. You should really (IMO) be looking for something that you can read without worrying - the main problem is too much unknown vocabulary. If you can avoid that, reading is fun.
If you don't have access to physical books, you're pretty much just stuck with what you can find, I guess? But what you find online isn't going to be the best fit for your reading level. My reading speed is perfectly fine within my reading level - it's all about knowing what's too difficult and when to give up and try something else.

I've read like 20 books and I still struggle, mostly due to my lack of confidence in kanji readings. I double-check some even if I already feel I know the reading. Perhaps a bad habit. Then books from certain authors, such as Haruki Murakami, just have that type of writing that can frustrate you. I definitely move slow with Haruki because he describes a lot. Whereas a book with a lot of conversation I can read quicker because it's a lot more straight-forward. Either way you just power through it and eventually you'll get to a point where you're learning and reading substantially.

I would try to just up in difficulty little by little. I started with JP translations of The Magic Treehouse (a book I read when I was a kid so I know it's easy). From there you just try to go to short stories, young adult, and then adult novels. At this point I feel I need to study less novels and more news or something that is just pure text. No conversation, lots of varied vocabulary, etc. Less interesting (in some cases) but necessary.

TheVinster Wrote:Then books from certain authors, such as Haruki Murakami, just have that type of writing that can frustrate you. I definitely move slow with Haruki because he describes a lot.

I know what you mean about Haruki Murakami. I'm currently reading a short story of his, "Midori iro no kedemono" (The green creature). There's alot more description than action, but the sentences are very short, which makes it easier to follow. It's a weird story, about someone in a house whose husband leaves for work and then a green creature comes out of the ground in the garden and starts knocking on the door. It's only around ten pages. It's taking me a fair amount of time to look up all the words and get through but I'm curious to see how it turns out!

john555 Wrote:

TheVinster Wrote:Then books from certain authors, such as Haruki Murakami, just have that type of writing that can frustrate you. I definitely move slow with Haruki because he describes a lot.

I know what you mean about Haruki Murakami. I'm currently reading a short story of his, "Midori iro no kedemono" (The green creature). There's alot more description than action, but the sentences are very short, which makes it easier to follow. It's a weird story, about someone in a house whose husband leaves for work and then a green creature comes out of the ground in the garden and starts knocking on the door. It's only around ten pages. It's taking me a fair amount of time to look up all the words and get through but I'm curious to see how it turns out!

Feel free to take a look my dokusho meter account to see what kinds of books I read. Might give you some ideas. http://bookmeter.com/u/265540

How do you guys enjoy reading? I've read a few light novels and maybe 200 volumes of manga and some random video games, yet I don't know if I even like reading. I enjoy it here and there, but most of the time I'm doing it because I'm learning a language and not to really enjoy the content itself. Sense of progress can be fun if that counts, but outside of that it's rare that I actually enjoy reading. Anyone else feel like this? I feel like I approach reading in my native language like this as well. I'd like to be able to just read and enjoy but I can't.

I'm not sure if that's an answerable question.

You've never felt 'sucked into' a story wanting to know what happens next? Or hit upon some interesting idea explored in a book? Even in your native language? I can't imagine that you've gone through life never hitting a good or accessible book, but I guess it's possible...?

vtx4848 Wrote:How do you guys enjoy reading? I've read a few light novels and maybe 200 volumes of manga and some random video games, yet I don't know if I even like reading. I enjoy it here and there, but most of the time I'm doing it because I'm learning a language and not to really enjoy the content itself. Sense of progress can be fun if that counts, but outside of that it's rare that I actually enjoy reading. Anyone else feel like this? I feel like I approach reading in my native language like this as well. I'd like to be able to just read and enjoy but I can't.

I think these things come and go in cycles. In my case for instance, I went for a long period (years actually) where I just didn't feel like reading for pleasure in my own native language. I claimed to be too busy, and felt like I just didn't want to sit reading.

But starting several years ago I rediscovered reading for pleasure and now do more of it. At the same time, I find I just can't sit in front of the TV and watch DVD's anymore.

Mabye years from now I'll get tired of reading again and instead embrace watching DVD's again.

honestly, no magic secrets here... the more you do it, the quicker you get at it. As for enjoying reading, it's just like any language, you've gotta find something you like.

It's hard for me to find stuff I enjoy reading because everything I'm interested in in english boils down to technical schlock. There's no way I could fathomably read japanese wikipedia for example.

Whenever I see captions intended for Japanese viewers pop up in TV shows, movie trailers, etc, I am reminded of just how far there is to go with reading speed. Even now I can barely catch a few words before they disappear.

Half way through the first volume of the book and I've netted around ~500 new words from Rikai-sama. Hmm, I wonder how many words will I learn from this whole series. Currently using J-J dictionary mode since I seem to "understand" the vocab deeper, thus more likely to recognize themin actual sentence

By the way, I tried to use JapaneseTextAnalysisTool to give me a rough estimate on how many vocab I have and It seems I knew about ~15000 words range. Interesting. I wonder when would I be able to abandon Anki.

Why do you want to abandon Anki? It's not like it suddenly becomes useless, it's always more efficient than reading for remembering vocabulary.