I want to try and live in japan after i´ve graduated from school but one thing that puts me of is overwork.
I´ve heard about people working to midnight. And they dont even get paid for overwork. But what would happen if you would just leave when your supposed to for the day?

Im sorry for my bad english :c

Someone who has worked in a Japanese office could probably answer this better than I can, but I've heard that foreigners can get away with not following some unspoken rules like working overtime, but I'm not sure if it would it would have a bad influence on the likelihood of you getting promoted or not.

My friend in Tokyo said that most Japanese companies are like that. But he said if you work at American companies (I guess other western companies as well?) they usually have the standard 40 hour work week (or whatever hours are standard in their home country)

I've been here about five years now. Everywhere I have worked you are expected to work as late as possible. Some places that means the last train; some places it means till your boss leaves; other places it means you make a judgement call.

As to what happens if you don't work late, it also varies, but - in my experience - broadly it will be held against you; probably not formally or explicitly - it's very rare that anyone will actually tell you you are not working late enough, but they will likely find other ways to be unhappy with your work or performance. For example, imagine you have numerical targets to hit; if you've been working late, your boss will probably find (or accept) excuses for you if you don't hit them, or reward you well if you do, but if you've been leaving early you will be penalised for not hitting your target and probably told that you should have done better even if you do.

The situation is different for contract workers - they usually get to go home as soon as their contract says, unless their employer wants to pay them overtime.

This probably sounds very cynical, but it is, in my experience, what happens. And there are other benefits to working in Japan that, in my opinion, make up for it. (And in the west you will still be subject to office politics.)

My understanding is that not following the unspoken "Stay forever, even if you have to find something to do where there's nothing" rule is a good way to get labeled as 'not a team player', but as Bokusenou said, this may not apply to foreigners and would be best answered by someone who has been in that situation for a while.

Just to add, on the subject of working for non-Japanese companies: in my experience of this OUTSIDE of Japan, I found that you are much more likely to take your work home with you - so even if you get to leave the office at 6 or 7 at night, you will still be on call whenever your boss wants to fire off an email or whatever. In my experience this is less likely in Japan. You work at work and then you leave your work in the office and go home. Also, I worked more weekends in the west than in Japan, where I have only ever worked once or twice on a weekend. I haven't worked for any western companies IN Japan, but my friends who do seem to be still bound by Japanese working hours.

everything varies from company to company though, and from industry to industry.

Bokusenou Wrote:Someone who has worked in a Japanese office could probably answer this better than I can, but I've heard that foreigners can get away with not following some unspoken rules like working overtime, but I'm not sure if it would it would have a bad influence on the likelihood of you getting promoted or not.

Foreigners can get away with it for a while, but they ought not to since it could come up when its time to recontract. This issue will also have a large impact on their relationship with coworkers in their office. It can affect their ability to get jobs in the future.

If you are working at a Japanese company in Japan then you should not expect special treatment. It doesn't matter that they know you are a foreigner. Your behavior differing from that of Japanese co-workers will send negative social signals whether you intend it to or not. If you don't want your work life to be hell at a Japanese company in Japan then it's important you learn Japanese office customs and etiquette. Always make sure your boss's beer glass is full.

Taurus Wrote:Just to add, on the subject of working for non-Japanese companies: in my experience of this OUTSIDE of Japan, I found that you are much more likely to take your work home with you - so even if you get to leave the office at 6 or 7 at night, you will still be on call whenever your boss wants to fire off an email or whatever. In my experience this is less likely in Japan. You work at work and then you leave your work in the office and go home. Also, I worked more weekends in the west than in Japan, where I have only ever worked once or twice on a weekend. I haven't worked for any western companies IN Japan, but my friends who do seem to be still bound by Japanese working hours.

everything varies from company to company though, and from industry to industry.

I understand why you would want to think "the truth is in the middle," but in this case it really isn't. At western companies you take work home when you have work to do. Most industries have up and down periods throughout the year. So while the possibility does exist that you might be taking home work every night, the number of people that do is very rare. As well, people who take their work home are still able to see their family, maybe eat dinner with them, put their kids to bed, and then get back to work.

In Japan the overtime work is happening every single day whether there is real work to do or not. Days where you go home at your scheduled time can be rare. Often this means you might not be able to see your family during the week much at all. In a typical Japanese family the father is pretty much absent. The mother is managing the children, the children are going to club activities at school until 6pm most days, then juku after than, and even the kids aren't getting home until 9:30pm or 10pm.

Also remember that Japan has a 飲ムュニケーション work culture. If you are attempting to be recommended for a promotion to a key position then it is required for you to go drinking with your boss. So some nights you will be unable to leave before last train. You'll have regular work hours, the overtime, the drinking, and then maybe a 二次会 with people you do not think of as being your friends.

This is one of the reasons Japan has such a thick glass ceiling for women. Women are never invited to the after work drinking since they might not be able to go to some of the less reputable places their male bosses like to frequent.

Taurus Wrote:The situation is different for contract workers - they usually get to go home as soon as their contract says, unless their employer wants to pay them overtime.

This is also not quite true. In general, in recent times, Japanese companies are hiring fewer regular employees and more contract workers. They will also hire on some of the contract workers as regular employees in April. So in these situations the contract workers will actually work the same amount of overtime as regular employees. An acquaintance of mine at a Japanese company says that the impression among the contract workers at her company is the reverse of what you described. She says the contract workers stay later and work harder than regular employees in the hopes they will be hired as regular employees in the future.

Also, "written in the contract" means absolutely nothing in Japan. Contracts are a joke. They are 建前. It is nearly impossible for a worker to win a contract dispute with an employer. If you attempt to do it then they will simply not recontract you, and if you try to use them as a reference for a new job they will notify your new prospective employer that you are "disruptive" and "difficult to work with" and "often complain."

Japanese labor laws are great on paper, but the enforcement of them is, by design, atrocious.

erlog Wrote:I understand why you would want to think "the truth is in the middle," but in this case it really isn't.

I don't think the truth is in the middle; I think working in the west and working in Japan have different drawbacks. And as I say, the situation varies from person to person; company to company; industry to industry. The truth will vary from person to person.

In Japan I pretty much don't see my daughter during the week; she has my wife's undivided attention during the week and my undivided attention at the weekends. My sisters in the UK both have to work along with their husbands, and much of their daily lives are spent trying to negotiate with each other on the fly about who will pick up the kids from school and trying to meet the competing demands of their employers and the cost and opening hours of childcare. Any additional salary they make by having two earners in the family is pretty much offset by the additional costs of childcare, travel and basic cost of living in the UK. Any additional time they get with their kids is qualified by the additional stress they have to go through to get it. (On top of that, my mum ends up having to look after their kids a lot of the time.)

In my opinion, I would rather live in Japan with my drawbacks, than live in the UK with their drawbacks.

(I mean, in a perfect world, I would love a work-life balance, but that simply isn't going to happen any time soon. At least in Japan the government and media are actively taking steps to improve work-life balance; the newly elected government in the UK seems hellbent on destroying it.)

erlog Wrote:Women are never invited to the after work drinking since they might not be able to go to some of the less reputable places their male bosses like to frequent.

This has never happened at any of the companies that I work for.

erlog Wrote:This is also not quite true.

I qualified everything in my post with 'in my experience'. It is absolutely true, unless you know something about my experience that I don't.

The situation for contract workers varies enormously, but at the companies I have worked at, contract workers get to work according to their contracts.

Taurus Wrote:

erlog Wrote:I understand why you would want to think "the truth is in the middle," but in this case it really isn't.

I don't think the truth is in the middle; I think working in the west and working in Japan have different drawbacks. And as I say, the situation varies from person to person; company to company; industry to industry. The truth will vary from person to person.

Yeah, my point is that your experience doesn't seem representative. For your situation it might balance out, but you are the first person I have ever heard say that. In my experience, nearly everyone I talk to concedes that working for a Japanese company in Japan is worse in terms of working conditions than their home countries.

The people who have better working conditions are usually the ones working for foreign companies in Japan. The only other exception I can think of is people teaching English on contract for a Japanese company. The Japanese companies that provide English education services provide a more western-style work experience due to their having to hire a large number of foreign workers.

In the case of those English education companies they still have a Japanese-style working conditions among their office workers that manage the company, though.

I probably should have used less pointed language in responding to you, but I just didn't want the OP to get a rose-tinted version of work life in Japan. Labor laws are not enforced in Japan in the same way as other countries. This has an impact because companies know they can get away with abusive working conditions. That's a key difference that makes Japanese work culture objectively worse compared to a lot of other countries.

You have a better-than-average situation. That's fine, but I just don't think it's representative.

I do not think I have a better-than-average situation; nor do I think my situation is representative. I don't think anyone's is because I think conditions vary widely, both in Japan and abroad. But I guess both of our evidence is anecdotal. While we are comparing anecdotes, I would add that I know many people who work in Japan who do not have much experience of working abroad, so while they complain about conditions here they don't have any firsthand experience with which to compare it. In particular a lot of English teachers come here straight after university, or having had very little work experience in their home countries.

On the topic of Japanese Labor laws though it really must be pointed out that the rights of employees in Japan are protected in many, many significant ways in which they are not in, for example, the UK or US. I'm not sure what you mean about the laws not being enforced - perhaps you mean that there are many companies over here that are willing to ignore them? I'm not sure how you would measure that to be honest - I know of many companies who engage in sharp practices in the UK and the US, and on top of that workers' rights are heavily circumscribed in the US and increasingly limited in the UK (eg. changes to the qualifying period for unfair dismissal, and introduction of zero-hours contracts). What is unarguably true is that in Japan employees are protected by law in many significant ways in which they are not in the UK and the US. And if an employer IS willing to ignore the law, employees CAN take them to court. Usually it doesn't reach that far because the employer settles though.

(Again, anecdotal, but in case it is of interest to anyone:
Years and years ago I worked for a US investment bank in London - undoubtedly the worst working conditions I have ever experienced in terms of hours - we would work till maybe 4 or 5 in the morning and be back in the office by 9.30; then most weekends we would work from maybe 11 till 11 every day with maybe one day off a month. At that time some sort of working hours law was introduced and the company basically pressured everybody to opt out so it wasn't illegal for people to be working so long.
In Japan I was working for a company a few years ago where everybody typically worked from about 9.30am until 11pm or so every weekday. It was pretty rare for people to come in on weekends. The government found out and the company was warned that this put them at risk of breaching Japanese working hours laws, so the company had to reclassify large swathes of employees (many had been improperly assigned as 'managers' or 'specialists' to reduce the restrictions on their working hours) and sent round all sorts of memos pleading with people to leave by 9pm. It did soften the working culture to an extent, but many employees continued to work as late as they could.)

What is your working experience, just as a matter of interest?

Sorry, I'm not going to get into personal archaeology with you since anecdotal evidence isn't really useful. The difference between your London experience and your story from Japan is that one is quite exceptional for that country while the other is the norm.

Your example from Japan there is quite telling since it doesn't seem like much changed at the company despite the warning from the government. That's my entire point about Japanese business culture. The government warned the company, and so the government has technically done their job. The company reclassified some employees and sent out some memos. They have done their job on paper. Yet, as you admit, it didn't really change things substantially. That's how these things tend to go in Japan. People at every level do only what they are technically required to do, and then feign bafflement when it doesn't fix the problem.

That's exactly what I mean by lack of enforcement of worker protections. The company sits back and says "aw shucks, our workers are just so dedicated! We just can't keep them from wanting to work long hours!" while knowing full well they have created a work culture that rewards that kind of destructive behavior and actively penalizes those who refuse to put up with it.

The company could fix the problem if they wanted to by forcing people to go home, and if they have that much work to do then they could try, you know, hiring more workers. The company doesn't want to do that because they want to take advantage of the free overtime hours their workers are giving them. More employees costs more money. Developing a business culture that reinforces a destructive work environment that only benefits the company, that's free. When it gets too extreme they get a warning from the government, and things change very slightly for a little while.

The patterns of the use of paid leave in Japan are a good example of what I'm talking about. Japanese workers use only 39% percent of theirs compared to the rest of the developed world being nearly double that rate of use. Also, when Japanese people DO take their paid leave it is most often in lieu of taking sick leave due to the onerous requirements put upon people who attempt to take sick leave.

The thing is, we don't need anecdotes to talk about Japanese work culture. It has been studied quite heavily because it's such an oddity among the developed world. I'm happy for you that your working conditions in Japan are better than your working conditions were in the UK. For many people that will probably not be true, though. For some people it could be, but either way, it's important for people to understand how working in Japan might compare to working in their home country.

Here's an okay article on the topic that includes anecdotes as well as some statistics: http://www.economist.com/node/10424391

Here's an article about the paid leave example I talked about:
http://nlab.itmedia.co.jp/nl/articles/13...ws082.html

erlog Wrote:Sorry, I'm not going to get into personal archaeology with you since anecdotal evidence isn't really useful.

Okay, fair enough.

Quote:The difference between your London experience and your story from Japan is that one is quite exceptional for that country while the other is the norm.

This is simply not true. My London experience is absolutely the norm in investment banking, everywhere in the world. My story from Japan is also pretty representative - in terms of the hours worked - of working in the games industry, everywhere in the world.

Quote:Your example from Japan there is quite telling since it doesn't seem like much changed at the company despite the warning from the government.

Maybe I wasn't clear on that point. The company went to great lengths to make sure that people went home by 9 every day, including sending people round from HR to tell people to go home. But they were fighting a losing battle because many of the young people who worked there have come to identify long hours as somehow an essential part of the startup/tech/games experience.

That said (I have now left the company) it seems that some years later many people do leave work earlier than was typical when I worked there.

Quote:That's how these things tend to go in Japan. People at every level do only what they are technically required to do, and then feign bafflement when it doesn't fix the problem.

This is borderline racism, no? Is this in your experience, or what people have told you, or is there some other source for this?

Quote:That's exactly what I mean by lack of enforcement of worker protections. The company sits back and says "aw shucks, our workers are just so dedicated! We just can't keep them from wanting to work long hours!" while knowing full well they have created a work culture that rewards that kind of destructive behavior and actively penalizes those who refuse to put up with it.

Any one of those employees was free to take the matter up in a court of law if they were unhappy.

Quote:The company could fix the problem if they wanted to by forcing people to go home, and if they have that much work to do then they could try, you know, hiring more workers. The company doesn't want to do that because they want to take advantage of the free overtime hours their workers are giving them. More employees costs more money. Developing a business culture that reinforces a destructive work environment that only benefits the company, that's free. When it gets too extreme they get a warning from the government, and things change very slightly for a little while.

Meanwhile, in the west, when labor costs are too onerous the doors are locked and the employees laid off.

Quote:The patterns of the use of paid leave in Japan are a good example of what I'm talking about. Japanese workers use only 39% percent of theirs compared to the rest of the developed world being nearly double that rate of use.

And the difference is that Japanese workers tend to get more national holidays than paid leave. For example, in the UK a new employee typically gets around 20 days of paid leave and 10 national holidays. In Japan that is 10 days of paid leave and 20 national holidays (and in both countries you tend to get an extra day per year of service). And it is very unusual to work on those national holidays in Japan. In the US I believe there is even less paid leave - though this varies by company. Again, there are merits and drawbacks on both sides here, but patterns of use of paid leave only tell one part of the story. (Everywhere I have worked in Japan has also had additional compulsory leave over New Year and in the summer - which I am sure you will point out is not typical, but it is far from being atypical.)

Quote:Here's an okay article on the topic that includes anecdotes as well as some statistics: http://www.economist.com/node/10424391

Here's an article about the paid leave example I talked about:
http://nlab.itmedia.co.jp/nl/articles/13...ws082.html

The first article is almost purely anecdotal; the second, as I mention above, refers simply to paid leave (and looks like it was commissioned by a Japanese travel agency - so no vested interest in trying to get Japanese people to take more holidays there then!)

I agree with you, though, that it's important for people to understand how working in Japan might compare to working in their home country. I think you have made it clear that you personally don't like working in Japan. Personally I don't like working in general, but in my experience - which, as I have tried to stress is not universal, but far from atypical - working in Japan is no better or worse than working anywhere else; it just has a different set of merits and drawbacks.

Taurus Wrote:On the topic of Japanese Labor laws though it really must be pointed out that the rights of employees in Japan are protected in many, many significant ways in which they are not in, for example, the UK or US.

I'm not interested in taking sides of the ongoing argument/discussion, but I'm actually curious for what kind of significant ways is this the case?

EDIT: I suppose other than lifetime employment, if that can be considered an applicable example.

It is much, much easier to fire people in the US than it is in Japan. It is much easier to fire people in the UK than it is in Japan. Pretty sure Japan has stricter regulations governing the payment of overtime and working time, too. Unions are more heavily circumscribed in the US, and are about to be in the UK. Etc.

Taurus Wrote:This is simply not true. My London experience is absolutely the norm in investment banking, everywhere in the world. My story from Japan is also pretty representative - in terms of the hours worked - of working in the games industry, everywhere in the world.

The average hours worked per week in the UK is 43. I never said your situation wasn't the norm for investment banking. I said it wasn't the norm as far as working in the UK goes.

Quote:Maybe I wasn't clear on that point. The company went to great lengths to make sure that people went home by 9 every day, including sending people round from HR to tell people to go home. But they were fighting a losing battle because many of the young people who worked there have come to identify long hours as somehow an essential part of the startup/tech/games experience.

That said (I have now left the company) it seems that some years later many people do leave work earlier than was typical when I worked there.

Wow, they made sure people only worked 12-13 hours a day instead of 16? Such progress!

Quote:

Quote:That's how these things tend to go in Japan. People at every level do only what they are technically required to do, and then feign bafflement when it doesn't fix the problem.

This is borderline racism, no? Is this in your experience, or what people have told you, or is there some other source for this?

I meant with regard to working conditions. Also, 建前 and 本音 are well-established cultural concepts when discussing Japan. Japanese society often makes use of 建前 in order to keep up appearances that social problems are being solved while actually solving nothing. This is by design. Old Japanese male politicians often do not want to actually fix issues with regard to working conditions, women's rights, rights of foreigners, etc.

Quote:Any one of those employees was free to take the matter up in a court of law if they were unhappy.

Good luck getting hired after that, and have fun with paying for lawyers.

Quote:And the difference is that Japanese workers tend to get more national holidays than paid leave. For example, in the UK a new employee typically gets around 20 days of paid leave and 10 national holidays. In Japan that is 10 days of paid leave and 20 national holidays (and in both countries you tend to get an extra day per year of service). And it is very unusual to work on those national holidays in Japan. In the US I believe there is even less paid leave - though this varies by company. Again, there are merits and drawbacks on both sides here, but patterns of use of paid leave only tell one part of the story. (Everywhere I have worked in Japan has also had additional compulsory leave over New Year and in the summer - which I am sure you will point out is not typical, but it is far from being atypical.)

They may get those public holidays off, but Saturday is often a work day.

Quote:I agree with you, though, that it's important for people to understand how working in Japan might compare to working in their home country. I think you have made it clear that you personally don't like working in Japan.

I think Japan has a problematic work culture. I enjoy many aspects of living in Japan, but the working conditions are not one of them.

Quote:Working in Japan is no better or worse than working anywhere else; it just has a different set of merits and drawbacks.

This is simply not true, and it's well-documented. The working conditions in Japan are worse than many other developed countries. This is a country that coined a new word to describe people literally working themselves to death.

I'm sure compared to working in investment banking hell in the UK Japan is certainly better. Most people aren't coming from those kinds of working conditions, though. They might even find your current working conditions pretty terrible.

erlog Wrote:The average hours worked per week in the UK is 43. I never said your situation wasn't the norm for investment banking. I said it wasn't the norm as far as working in the UK goes.

Yeah, my point is that there is no useful 'norm'. In the UK the working environment ranges from people on zero-hours contracts who are tied exclusively to one employer but only get to work (and to receive statutory benefits) at the whim of that employer; through salaried professionals who usually have a clause in their contract that states they have to work whatever additional hours as are necessary; to jobs in industries like investment banking, game development, law, movie-making, etc. where all rules go out the window. This is similar in Japan.

Quote:Wow, they made sure people only worked 12-13 hours a day instead of 16? Such progress!

You seem to be moving the goalposts now. Seriously, how many videogame companies do you know where people *don't* work 12 hour days? They certainly exist, but they are certainly not the norm - and usually, like I said upthread, those western companies where people get to go home, they are still expected to be on call at the end of a blackberry or smartphone. This is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but long hours in certain industries are not unique to Japan, and there are 9 to 5 jobs in Japan too - have you not seen the trains at 5pm?

Quote:I meant with regard to working conditions. Also, 建前 and 本音 are well-established cultural concepts when discussing Japan. Japanese society often makes use of 建前 in order to keep up appearances that social problems are being solved while actually solving nothing. This is by design. Old Japanese male politicians often do not want to actually fix issues with regard to working conditions, women's rights, rights of foreigners, etc.

I think this is a whole other discussion and it looks like you and I have disagreed with each other before about this. I happen to think that this concept is, again, not unique to Japan, and is frequently used by unhappy gaijin to frame unpleasant opinions about Japan and the Japanese.

Quote:

Quote:Any one of those employees was free to take the matter up in a court of law if they were unhappy.

Good luck getting hired after that, and have fun with paying for lawyers.

Well it rarely reaches a court of law and settlements frequently include employers arranging the paperwork so it does not look like the employee was fired. In the event it does reach a court of law, then yes, it can cause problems subsequently, as it would in the UK if you seek legal redress (though in the UK the threshold for legal redress is usually more demanding - like I say, the qualifying period for unfair dismissal has recently been extended for example).

Quote:They may get those public holidays off, but Saturday is often a work day.

I know of no regular Japanese companies where Saturday is a work day, and if employees do work on Saturdays then the company is required (by law, I think) to issue them with replacement paid leave or pay.

Quote:I think Japan has a problematic work culture. I enjoy many aspects of living in Japan, but the working conditions are not one of them.

By that same token, you have made it clear you like working 12+ hours a day. I wonder how useful readers of this thread will find your perspective on this issue.

I think you must be trolling here: I mention *explicitly* that I don't *like* working at all. I have been pretty clear, though, that I am willing to suffer the drawbacks of working life in Japan in order to benefit from the many benefits of living (and working!) here. If I were to go back to the UK I would make a similar decision about the drawbacks of working life vs. the quality of life over there, but at the moment Japan comes out a clear winner.

Quote:

Quote:Working in Japan is no better or worse than working anywhere else; it just has a different set of merits and drawbacks.

This is simply not true, and it's well-documented. The working conditions in Japan are worse than many other developed countries. This is a country that coined a new word to describe people literally working themselves to death.

Well-documented as in the sources that you cited above? A borderline crazy-japan piece and a survey conducted by a travel company? Again, just because the Japanese have a word for it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere.

(An interesting read about working life in Britain, incidentally, is here: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/ap...ggs-review )

Quote:I'm sure compared to working in investment banking hell in the UK Japan is certainly better. Most people aren't coming from those kinds of working conditions, though. They might even find your current working conditions pretty terrible.

I'm sure compared to working in investment banking hell in the UK, working in investment banking hell in Japan is pretty similar actually, but I wouldn't know precisely for sure because I have done one and not the other. I have, though, worked for a whole range of different companies and industries across several countries, and really, my experiences in Japan are not uniformly better or worse; they are just better and worse in different ways. I think that is a pretty useful insight to share with the original poster.

EDIT: Since I think we have both probably made ourselves clear by now, I am not sure there is any point in continuing this discussion, so I thought I would just add a final word from my side to clarify: I think we both agree that Japan has a problematic work culture, as you point out. I think where we disagree is that you seem to consider Japan to be unique in this. I don't. I think the whole world has a problematic work culture right now, unfortunately.

Taurus Wrote:Yeah, my point is that there is no useful 'norm'.

Averages! Statistics! Mere numbers! Reality is unknowable. No wonder you're no longer working in finance.

Quote:Seriously, how many videogame companies..

I'm not discussing video game companies. I made that very very clear. I am discussing the documented working conditions in Japan overall as compared to other developed nations. Just because that doesn't revolve around you doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

Quote:I know of no regular Japanese companies where Saturday is a work day, and if employees do work on Saturdays then the company is required (by law, I think) to issue them with replacement paid leave or pay.

Just because you personally don't know of any does not mean it's not very common. So we have my anecdote of having many acquaintances in various industries who are forced to work on Saturday up against your anecdote of it not existing. Would you like to cite a source for your claim?

Quote:I think you must be trolling here.

You're correct! I was trolling you there. You put words in my mouth, and so I put words in yours. Feels pretty awful, doesn't it?

Quote:Well-documented as in the sources that you cited above? A borderline crazy-japan piece and a survey conducted by a travel company? Again, just because the Japanese have a word for it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere.

Yeah. It's well-documented. I posted a few sources that backed up my specific points. I never claimed those sources were comprehensive. If you would like more information you can pick up one of the many books written in Japanese or English on this topic.

Quote:I have, though, worked for a whole range of different companies and industries across several countries, and really, my experiences in Japan are not uniformly better or worse.

Again, I am not taking issue with your specific experience. However, you are attempting to generalize your experience and act like it's more than an anecdote. When you do that it gives people a false impression. If you wish to make claims about Japanese work culture in general then please post sources.

Quote:I think where we disagree is that you seem to consider Japan to be unique in this. I don't. I think the whole world has a problematic work culture right now, unfortunately.

I don't think Japan is unique in this. I think Japan has worse working conditions than countries people might be coming from. There are other countries with bad working conditions too. Most of them don't have the GDP of Japan, though. The US comes quite close to being worse than Japan on many fronts, but the forced unpaid overtime and inability to take paid vacation is where Japan clinches it's victory as worse.

I think you're pretty angry and you want to somehow blame that on Japan. Fair enough.

Here, have this to lighten the mood:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/socie...5051398229

Taurus Wrote:I think you're pretty angry and you want to somehow blame that on Japan. Fair enough.

I posted a more serious reply to this, but now I have deleted it since the only proper response to someone psychoanalyzing someone on an internet forum is:

lololololololool


ol

Regarding the stastics, you can have a look at table II-3 for a run down of working hours:
http://www.e-stat.go.jp/SG1/estat/GL3802...nder=estat

Also from my experience (working here, living here, discussions with co-workers and friends) both make many valid points. My field is not in teaching or video game industry.
So I can also make some general statements which I think applies about 90% of the time:

- people stay in the office even if they have nothing to do (quote from a co-worker "No role at home, no need to go")
- contract workers do the same with less pay
- women are invited to every drinking session, including the ones that end up in hostess bars/clubs.
- people never ask "why" or question why something is done the way it is, they simply do it
- performance is evaluated mainly based on "presence at office"
- 6 days work/1 off is very common, as is 5 days of work/2 off where the 2 off are not Saturday&Sunday
- people are expected to do overtime without compensation
- nobody wants to take responsibility of anything at work
- meetings are arranged in the evenings, even if they could easily be arranged during the day
- don't expect too much to happen at the office before lunch time

In short, work is long, not hard or efficient.

Ps. I am not in the 90%, so this is purely from the outside of the "local madness". There is no work-life balance in Japan for most of the workers.

Taurus Wrote:It is much, much easier to fire people in the US than it is in Japan. It is much easier to fire people in the UK than it is in Japan. Pretty sure Japan has stricter regulations governing the payment of overtime and working time, too. Unions are more heavily circumscribed in the US, and are about to be in the UK. Etc.

Not going to jump into the other argument (I don't have any experience), but I do want to state my opinion on this. I'm from a 'right to work' state in the US. I can't understand why anyone would want to have labor unions controlling every facet of the employer/employee relationship. It's much easier to fire people here, sure, but it's also easier to quit a job for any reason without much negative impact on your ability to get hired in the future. Companies here understand that, while they have the right to fire you over just about anything (not that they will, since it impacts their ability to get good hires and can affect their sales negatively), the employee can quit without any prior notice for any reason (not that they will, since it means they probably won't get a good review if they use that company as a reference later) and can shout their displeasure about the company for all to hear without any fear of repercussion.
This means that employers who can't afford to have a high rate of employee turnover have to respect their employees and treat them fairly, and employees who don't want to risk losing their job will do better work and be more professional when dealing with their employers.

With only minor external influences (labor laws and minimum wage), the relationship is mostly private, which is beneficial for both parties. When Unions get over involved in business, you end up with more bad than good: employers can't fire bad employees easily; employees can't quit their jobs easily; people are constantly striking for something (seriously, we only have federal minimum wage here, and there's barely any strikes or problems with minimum wage workers; why would you strike while making more than twice as much as a someone doing the same job here? Unions. They're purely political organizations that feel they have to always be doing something so that they can stay relevant and appease other interest groups); it's just a big mess.
Regulation has its place, but stepping beyond that point is bad for business.

To bring this back to Japan, from what I've been reading, it seems that regulations aren't being enforced properly and employees don't hold any power over their employers; that is, neither of the previously mentioned systems is working properly. It has been changing over the years though.
I think one thing that needs to change for Japan's working culture to improve are the slander laws; in Japan, if you say something negative about a company (or individual, I think), true or not, that could or does cause them to lose money, you are liable for their loss. This was being discussed a lot by J-vloggers after a string of incidents involving some eikaiwa schools came to light; many refused to mention the name of the businesses directly because, being under Japanese law, they feared lawsuits over slander. The businesses in question had been doing illegal things for years, but were able to get away with it because the employees they screwed over were convinced to come work for them without getting a Visa first, so no one wanted to involve the law. (Just as an example that I actually know a bit about.)
Point being, whether the company is doing illegal things or is just a shitty employer, no one can really complain about it without fear of legal backlash. This keeps the relationship seen in 'right to work' states from being established, and lowers the efficacy of regulations (not that regulations are strictly adhered to in the first place, which defeats the purpose of having them).

Don't waste time at companies where the management is so bad that everyone is working till midnight at no fault of their own (especially if you're not being paid overtime).

If you find yourself in such a place, don't let them push you around or find somewhere better unless they happen to be paying you tons. Awful companies need to stop getting away with such practices. If you're not in the position where you're in high demand and can't find somewhere decent easily then it's probably best to avoid Japan except for vacations.

So Shalom buddy, you prefer 50% longer work weeks, lower pay (as an employee) and less vacation time over joining a union? You sir are a true Japanese!

juniperpansy Wrote:So Shalom buddy, you prefer 50% longer work weeks, lower pay (as an employee) and less vacation time over joining a union? You sir are a true Japanese!

Can you back up you numbers with some evidence? IMO it is not the choice between terrible terrible stuff OR unions in the first place.