Ok. I know と can be used for making both direct quotes and vague quotes. I know という can be used to explain what one said/says in general/asking what one should say etc.. The thing I get stumped on, continuously, is 'using 「いう」 to describe anything'.

I'm currently learning here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/define.html

And looking at this:

主人公が犯人だったというのが一番面白かった。
The most interesting thing was that the main character was the criminal.

I just don't get what という is being used for there. It seems to me it'd mean the same thing without it.

I see this all the time in Japanese and it's getting me down. Can the RtK forum work their usual magic?!

Thanks.

Have you managed to get a hold of the dictionaries of Japanese grammar? There are some good descriptions in there.

wrightak Wrote:Have you managed to get a hold of the dictionaries of Japanese grammar? There are some good descriptions in there.

No I haven't yet. I did look into it but apparently good ones are quite hard to find. The nearest I cam was the Oxford Japanese Grammar Dictionary but apparently it's quite hit and miss... only uses romaji sort of thing.

I was looking at this... does it look any good?:

http://www.freebookcity.com/2008/02/06/d...-with.html

From "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar":
to iu: "a phrase marking information which identifies or explains the noun following the phrase"
called; that says ~; that

Ok, maybe not that helpful.

My japanese is upper intermediate at best, so don't take this as gospel, but here's my take on it

In the example sentence you gave という is probably best translated as "the fact that". Unfortunately the english translation didn't quite capture that, perhaps it should have been

The most interesting thing was THE FACT THAT the main character was the criminal

The meaning doesn't change much but there is a slight change in nuance.

By the way I would recommend the books
"A dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" and
"A dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar"
by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui and published by The Japan Times.
I've found them to cover a fairly comprehensive range of grammar points and their example sentences generally get the point across when the explanations are a little lacking.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:And looking at this:

主人公が犯人だったというのが一番面白かった。
The most interesting thing was that the main character was the criminal.

I just don't get what という is being used for there. It seems to me it'd mean the same thing without it.

I'll take a stab at this.

My guess is that when the object of a verb is itself capable of standing as a sentence, you need some way of expressing its structural relationship as an object. For example, "you are hungry" can be embedded as the content of my thought by saying "I think THAT you are hungry." Something similar is going on here. If the "most interesting thing" is just a noun, you don't need this pattern. But here, the most interesting thing is a sentence: "the main character was a criminal." In my view, the というのが has a gramatical function that allows you to embed the "the main character was a criminal" into the sentence as the content of what is "most interesting." The result is roughly as follows: "The most interesting thing IS THAT the main character was a/the criminal."

So, in this particular sentence, I think it is functioning similar to "is that" or "that" or, as someone said elsewhere, "the fact that."

If you were to drop the というの, my guess is that this function would be lost. The result would be (I think) that the independent clause "the main character was a criminal" would no longer be the content of "the most interesting." Instead, it would sound more like "the main character was a criminal, but the most interesting thing." The link between the two parts of the sentence would be different and, in this case, would not make sense.

To continue from Howdycowdy's post, here are a couple sentences to demonstrate:

田中さんを知っています。
I know Ms. Tanaka.

田中さんが納豆を食べることを知っています
I know that Ms. Tanaka eatｓ natto.

田中さんが医者だということを知っています。
I know that Ms. Tanaka is a doctor.

田中さんが美しいということを知っています。
I know that Ms. Tanaka is a beautiful.

In the first two cases, a noun and a nominalized verb, you can just stick を on directly.

But if the clause ends with just a です　equivalent...だ、an いーadjective、である, etc...then you have to use という　

Thanks Johnzep. That takes it up level and is quite interesting.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:No I haven't yet. I did look into it but apparently good ones are quite hard to find. The nearest I cam was the Oxford Japanese Grammar Dictionary but apparently it's quite hit and miss... only uses romaji sort of thing.

I was looking at this... does it look any good?:

http://www.freebookcity.com/2008/02/06/d...-with.html

I haven't seen that one so can't say much I'm afraid. The dictionaries I was referring to are the ones that joesan mentioned.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictionary-Basic...379&sr=8-1

and

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictionary-Inter...379&sr=8-1

They are a bit pricey so it's well worth seeing if you can get them cheaper through "used and new" or something. Alternatively, you might find them in some libraries. I think they're worth the money though and from your posts, I think they'd suit your studying style.

The basic one has a section on という and the intermediate one has an entry on というのが which is the one you're looking at here.

Can I just say thanks to everyone? I feel I've gotten a tighter grasp on this now. I'll get some practice in and hopefully I'll get used to it.

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar was a little too expensive, so I downloaded it in eBook form. I'll give it a read and see what I can pick up.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar was a little too expensive, so I downloaded it in eBook form.

Hi

Just wondering is the ebook version a text or image document?

Thanks

Sam